Groongthep

Yes, I was referring to the coup of 2006. Whether the current government is the third or the twenty third since then doesn't change the fact that they would not be in power had there not been a military intervention to remove the corrupt but democratically elected government of the time.

You are aware i take it that there was military intervention before the democratically elected government you speak of came to power?

I'm not sure I follow you. There was the military coup of February 1991 and many before that but they had nothing to do with Thaksin's TRT government.

1.) I was speaking in the context of Giles Ungpakorn who Buchholz labeled as a criminal. I believe Giles' opinions deserve to be heard whether or not one likes them.

2.) There are of course, some people who would string together a long list of vulgar obscenities to describe people or ideas they dislike sometimes just for the sheer shock value of it and I would not agree that tasteless diatribes such as those need to be repeated, but that is not to what I was referring.

You stated: any opinion, whether you like it or not, deserves to be heard

You didn't state: Gile's opinion, whether you like it or not, deserves to be heard

So am i correct in assuming from what you posted above that when you said any you in fact didn't mean any?

OK, you win. As I said in the other part of the post that you quoted but left out, I don't think vicious attack opinions filled with obscenities need be heard. What this has to do with Giles Ungpakorn’s book and other legitimate critical literature is beyond me, but I will admit that you are correct if that’s what you want.

You stated: any opinion, whether you like it or not, deserves to be heard

You didn't state: Gile's opinion, whether you like it or not, deserves to be heard

So am i correct in assuming from what you posted above that when you said any you in fact didn't mean any?

OK, you win. As I said in the other part of the post that you quoted, I don't think vicious attack opinions filled with obscenities need be heard. What that has to do with the censorship of Giles Ungpakorn's book and other legitamate critical literature is beyond me, but if it makes you happy then I will admit that you are correct.

With military intervention you probably point to the 2006 coup. In that case the current government is the third since then. As for killing political opponents, may be my memory starts to fail me, but the only I recall is the late, renegade general Seh Daeng. Him I'd call a military opponent, or even militant rebel.

Yes, I was referring to the coup of 2006. Whether the current government is the third or the twenty third since then doesn't change the fact that they would not be in power had there not been a military intervention to remove the corrupt but democratically elected government of the time.

[Thaksin tried to get control of the army, and if he had then his government would only exist because of the military intervention of his supporters, and the red shirts used military snipers to kill their political opponents.

Does that make Thaksin and the red shirts right wing as well?

Thaksin was and is definitely right wing. I am not or have I ever been a supporter of Thaksin.

The accusations that the red shirts used military snipers to kill their political opponents is exactly the type of unsubstantiated accusations that I was talking about in my previous post concerning the PR campaign. Doesn't it seem strange to you that scores of unarmed red shirts many nurses and women were killed by the army but the mysterious black shirted armed ones got away without one single one of them being either killed or captured? I'm not making any accusations here but it does seem to be a very odd occurance that the very people the army would most want to shoot got away but so many of the regular people from the countryside got shot up pretty bad.

You are obviously on the elitist-right side of the fence and I am sure that nothing will ever change your position, but any opinion, whether you like it or not, deserves to be heard.

By any opinion, do you really mean any opinion? It's a serious question.

To state the obvious, any covers a wide spectrum.

P.S. Do you think slapping political labels on people helps the debate? It's my belief that the red shirt movement has definite right wing tendencies, but i wouldn't label you as being such because I feel that simply sympathising / supporting a group, doesn't necessarily politically define a person. By the same token, nor does being against a group.

1.) I was speaking in the context of Giles Ungpakorn who Buchholz labeled as a criminal. I believe Giles' opinions deserve to be heard whether or not one likes them.

2.) There are of course, some people who would string together a long list of vulgar obscenities to describe people or ideas they dislike sometimes just for the sheer shock value of it and I would not agree that tasteless diatribes such as those need to be repeated, but that is not to what I was referring.

3.) The phrase "slapping political labels on people" is in itself a somewhat pejorative statement. Clearly, if someone supports a government that would not exist if not for military intervention and has used military snipers to kill their political opponents, then it would not be totally incorrect to refer to them as right-wing or at least right-wing leaning. And when a group openly describe themselves as the traditional guardians of the nation then it would be hard not to describe them as elitist either. I am also aware that in the context of a Public Relations Campaign which most modern political contests involve due to the extremely strong influences of television and the internet, false labeling and name calling can be a very effective tool against ones opposition especially when the labels and accusations are totally false. It puts on us the responsibility to examine all political information carefully in order to try to determine its veracity. There are propaganda experts both public and private whose sole purpose it is to convince the public that their side is good and the other bad. I believe that the current government in Thailand is doing an excellent job of fooling the foreign press and many on this forum that their intentions are much nobler than they really are. Most of the arguments seen on the pages of Thai Visa political threads are between those convinced by the spin masters and those who are not. Other large groups are not so much influenced in their opinions by the media as they are from Thai family members or from co-workers. Regardless, it is only prudent to try to form ones opinions from as much diverse information as possible and the censorship which we see here makes that a very difficult task.

You are obviously on the elitist-right side of the fence and I am sure that nothing will ever change your position, but any opinion, whether you like it or not, deserves to be heard.

For a university professor to be criminally charged for writing a book on politics, history and society regardless of content is unacceptable in any country claiming to be free.

hahaha... I'm neither an elitist nor right wing.

hahaha... I'm neither an elitist nor right wing.

OK, perhaps I was wrong. You probably would have come across more credible had you used another smiley thing or maybe "Nyae-nyae-nayae-yae".

I particularly liked how the fugitive Giles says the Reds are a peaceful movement.

I do respect his honesty to admitting to Cunningham's slam that Red Shirts are anti-gay and anti-foreigner.

As the time Giles spends 10,000 kilometers away from Thailand grows (it's been over a year since he ran away), his ability to know what is happening here lessens, not that it was all that accurate to begin with.

His Marxist rants are suitable only for the obscure socialist websites that will publish it. His continual ravings against that which nearly Thai holds dear have permanently sealed his fate. His extremist views are shared only by a pitifully small handful of Thais and a minuscule smattering of unknowing foreigners. It has sealed his fate in that he will never return to Thailand and so he turns his attention to petty disagreements with school boards in the U.K.

It's funny to read about some of his current "conflicts" now that he's fled from justified charges in Thailand.

He's made his bed and seems prepared to lay in it... which is fine, better there than here.

It appears you missed the point of my post. I too have had my reservations about many of Giles' unconventional opinions, but the topic of the thread was censorship. There have already been scores of pro and anti Red/Yellow threads on this forum, and it was not my intention to rehash another one of those unending and unwinnable discussions. (Although I couldn't help but express myself a little bit on the subject.)

What motivated my post was your description of Giles Ungpakorn as a "criminal fugitive". You are obviously on the elitist-right side of the fence and I am sure that nothing will ever change your position, but any opinion, whether you like it or not, deserves to be heard. For a university professor to be criminally charged for writing a book on politics, history and society regardless of content is unacceptable in any country claiming to be free. For Ungpakorn to be labeled a "criminal" is absurd. It is a law that allows free citizens to be made into offenders for expressing their thoughts which is indeed criminal.

You have a right to your opinion so why not him? I disagree with your opinion, but at least I try to show some respect for your right to express it .

By-the-way your addition of the thingy lends little maturity or credibility to your statements, but you can do whatever you want even if Giles Ungpakorn can’t.

I know mate,i googled it too.My point is that Thailand is on its way not Thailand is a communist country

I didn't Google anything my friend and I just can't agree with your fear that Thailand will soon become a Communist country. The locals can simply look across the border into Laos and Cambodia and see how much better off they (the Thais) are in comparison to their Communist neighbors and realize that they don't want to go backwards and end up like them. There is a very real chance however that the long progression of dictatorships which have followed one another here in Thailand will continue and little or no progress will ever be made in rectifying the huge disparity in income and standard of living between rich and poor here in this country.

How broad do you see 'Thai elite'? does it include K. Thaksin and his hi-so children who can only find their shopping items in the original shops in Paris ?

Yes.

I agree that the thai elite are probably the most greedy people on this planet,no thought for the majority of very poor thais and a complete disregard for law and order.The amount of banned websites and the throttling of broadband download speeds is the start of a north korea style management.New job creation is for the elite family,whether they can do the job or not,exam results for hi-so sons/daughters are made up to look much better than they are.

I call that a form of communism and it will come in my lifetime i am sure

It think you are confusing the terms corruption and communism. Communism is an economic and political system. Corruption is the crime of abusing ones position of responsibility for ones own benefit. Corruption can and does exist in all economic and political systems. Depending on who is in charge of the system, it can be much worse in some than in others.

So any communist country havent got the elitists and the corruption for the few,just the same as the Thai rich

Sure, all the communist countries have some corruption by their elites as well but it's nothing in comparison to the scale of greed demonstrated by the privileged in Thailand.

I am a man but have also had difficulty in getting a decent haircut in Thailand. A successful method that I have started employing recently, which should work for women too is to bring with you a few photos of yourself with your hair cut the way you like it. Ensure that the barber (hairdresser) looks at them closely before he/she begins. I've got good results this way. Even though I speak fairly good Thai pictures always work better than explanations.

Thailand is becoming a communist state no doubt about that.

What a statement. Thailand, whose government was installed by coup, is ultra elitist, ultra capitalist, ultra pro monarchy, historically virulently anti communist, wary of its communist neighbours in Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and China and who would quickly be voted out in a fair election, is, in your opinion, "becoming a communist state..." Thaksin, Abhisit and of course the Army, who are really in charge, repeatedly profess strong anti communist opinions as well.

There are a few small fringe groups who publish little read communist material but all the serious socialist union leaders and academics (like Giles "Ji" Ungpakorn) have already been exiled or threatened with violence if they don't desist.

Thailand is about as far from being communist as any other country on the planet.

Today I called my building contractor "Chang Ngiam", and asked him how many sacks of cement he needed. ช่างเหงี่ยมเอา(จะให้ซื้อ)ซีเมนต์กี่กระสอบ?

We really need to know your age and Ngiam's age as well as some kind of idea of Ngiam's wealth to determine if this has any bearing on the topic of addressing younger adults. It's already been mentioned that it is common practice to refer to people by profession then name. If Ngiam was just an aquaintence and not a tradesman working for you and you are in your 50s or 60s and he in his 30s or 40s, how would you address him?

(I'm a 56 y/o farang).....

........among friends and people I know, I'm supposed to call the (people) that are younger than I am, just by their nickname, but I'd really like to use some kind of title in front of their nickname especially the 30-40 year olds,

Any suggestions?

Thanks for the replies.

I tried Nong, but when I called a 35 y/o Nong ...., he started laughing.

I guess I will just stick to using only the nicknames.

Good idea. If you're 56 (I'm 54) you can safely address 30 to 40 year old Thais that you know well by using just their nicknames without causing any offence. I do it all the time and have never felt that anyone objected to me referring to them in this way. I would suggest however that if you are calling out to someone or trying to get their attention that you use the polite particle "khrab" after their nickname as it is obviously more polite and sounds a little less abrupt.

As a Canadian I was raised with the pounds, miles and gallons system. Then, in the mid 1970s we were changed over to the metric system. Prior to that we only had a semi working knowledge of the metric system, but didn't have to use it. My job as a log scaler meant I had to measure logs individually, and very often estimate (guess) lengths and diameters in feet and inches. Business counted on me being accurate, and millions of dollars changed hands using my calculations. When we changed from feet and inches to centimetres and meters our job changed dramatically. Even a new calibration called a "RAD" (short for radius) was introduced just so we could make a new formula to calculate the volume of a log. A RAD is two centimetres. The result was I became fluent in both systems.

However, I still bounce back and forth between feet and inches, and centimetres and kilometres. Unfortunately, the RAD has not become a common measurement. There is nothing between a centimetre and a meter in the metric system. Inches are still a practical measurement. Because the speedometers in all our vehicles in Canada are set up in Kilometres that is how I think most of the time.

It is sort of like knowing two separate languages where you have to bounce back and forth all the time. It takes a bit of thinking to get it right.

I'm an American who works in the marine petroleum transportation industry. For cargo, we use mostly imperial measurements in the US, metric measurements most everywhere else and at sea we still use archaic marine measurements such as cables, fathoms, shots and nautical miles among others. Luckily, nowadays the simple push of a button on a computer will convert any measurement system value into the value of any other system in less than a second.

How much is a shot? Where I grew up, it was generally quarter or fifth of a gill, in England generally a sixth, but now, I believe, standardised at 25 millilitres.

Is a pint in a pub still 568 millilitres?

I assume your question is rhetorical and somewhat toungue-in-cheek, but to be precise I was speaking of shots as nautical units of lenghth. One shot of anchor chain is 90 feet long.

How long is a cable compared to a chain ?

Even on metric drawings, we still refer to mileage or chainage...

In nautical terms a cable is also a unit of length. It is approximately one tenth of a traditional nautical mile or about 600 feet which is also 100 fathoms.

SC

Here's a question: Do you think that the imperial (actually US - Imperial is slightly different in some units - like pints particularly) system has survived in the US because it is easier to use than metric, or because it is more difficult?

I think that the Imperial system (which is ironically often referred to as the "English" system of measure in the US) has endured because of two major reasons. First and foremost because the retooling of all the machinery in the US to different sizes would be fantastically expensive. Secondly because the ageing population in the US is resistant to change. I don't think one can say that either system is harder or easier than the other without first considering which system the person in question grew up with. Metric is far more logical but try telling a 60+ year old American that it is easier and you will not find many agreeing with you. It's a different story of course if you ask a younger person who is familiar with the metric system from school and /or work.

......acording to the reds he is a man of great honor, could have walked by just fingering Thaksin, 'they say'

What's the source of this information?

I do very much look forward to the dollar plunging below 30 BHT/$ and keep falling.

My point is more than proven- I called America insular, you couldn't help but argue how great America is....

No, you have proven no point whatsoever. Nowhere have I argued how great America is. All I said was that it is the world's largest economy which is a simple statistic, not a hubristic proclamation. The original topic was systems of measurements which you have decided to twist into another depressing and mindless thread of bashing and bullsh1t. When your allegations were challenged you avoided rational argument and stooped to childish name-calling. Your arguments, if you can call them that, are both depressing and delusional.

America is merely 1 country yet you compare it to a continent- the other 6 billion people don't care what 1 country uses.

Oh how very wrong you are. The businessmen among those 6 billion other people care very much about using the correct measurements when buying or selling products to or from the world's largest economy and largest importer of goods.

You mean the most in debt economy in the world don't you? Your response is exactly what you'd expect off some Americans.

Just exactly what does debt have to do with systems of measurements? Your inane response is exactly what you'd expect of someone who cannot defend their position with logic.

America is merely 1 country yet you compare it to a continent- the other 6 billion people don't care what 1 country uses.

Oh how very wrong you are. The businessmen among those 6 billion other people care very much about using the correct measurements when buying or selling products to or from the world's largest economy and largest importer of goods.

As a Canadian I was raised with the pounds, miles and gallons system. Then, in the mid 1970s we were changed over to the metric system. Prior to that we only had a semi working knowledge of the metric system, but didn't have to use it. My job as a log scaler meant I had to measure logs individually, and very often estimate (guess) lengths and diameters in feet and inches. Business counted on me being accurate, and millions of dollars changed hands using my calculations. When we changed from feet and inches to centimetres and meters our job changed dramatically. Even a new calibration called a "RAD" (short for radius) was introduced just so we could make a new formula to calculate the volume of a log. A RAD is two centimetres. The result was I became fluent in both systems.

However, I still bounce back and forth between feet and inches, and centimetres and kilometres. Unfortunately, the RAD has not become a common measurement. There is nothing between a centimetre and a meter in the metric system. Inches are still a practical measurement. Because the speedometers in all our vehicles in Canada are set up in Kilometres that is how I think most of the time.

It is sort of like knowing two separate languages where you have to bounce back and forth all the time. It takes a bit of thinking to get it right.

I'm an American who works in the marine petroleum transportation industry. For cargo, we use mostly imperial measurements in the US, metric measurements most everywhere else and at sea we still use archaic marine measurements such as cables, fathoms, shots and nautical miles among others. Luckily, nowadays the simple push of a button on a computer will convert any measurement system value into the value of any other system in less than a second.

ROFL ........ You are to funny ! Or college just ain't what it used to be !

Your misspelling and sentence fragment add to the irony.

I have personal reason for being offended as I once worked in the field of anti-trafficking and child abuse investigation so I am perhaps more likely to be offended by anything I think is related to this. Everyone relates to the world based on their own experiences. If someone is a holocaust survivor, it would be understandable if they were upset by swastika tee shirts. Sort of what the posting referred to about guy with army shirt at war museum.

Your statement that everyone relates to the world based on their own experiences is valid but how anyone could equate this T shirt with supporting child abuse and human trafficking is really a stretch.

คุณแพะช่วย isn't widely used, in my experience. It's certainly a pun on the more common phrase คุณพระช่วย.

Similar terms are โอ้แม่เจ้า แม่เจ้า พระเจ้าจอร์จ etc.

I hear คุณพระช่วย fairly often too. I have always taken it to mean something equivalent to "Dear God!" or "God Help Me!" in English

Holy Cow!

แม่เจ้าโว้ย!

Help me out on this one. In English, Holy Cow! is a rather mild and gentle exclaimation. It was made somewhat famous by the late sports announcer Harry Carray who often used it on the air in the days when broadcasting was much more polite than it is today.

The times I have heard แม่เจ้าโว้ย! however, has usually been when I was in the company of Thai men only and talking about sexy women or something sexy about a woman. Not a particularly strong or vulgar statement mind you, but considerably more gruff than the English "Holy Cow"!

I would be interested in yoot and Rikker's take on this.