Arkady

An office topic post and response were deleted.

6 hours ago, greenchair said:

I used to pop out to the moi and say hi every now and then. 

I would just ask them about my case and let them put a face to the pile of documents. They would always tell me what the hold up was. Such as I had an impending court case.

I don't know if it helped but I got the letter for an interview a couple of weeks after my curtasy call. If your thai is not too bad, then pop in for a chat. 

P.S. , don't even think about getting anywhere on the telephone. 

P.S.S dress nicely and be super polite. 

Visiting the MoI doesn’t do any harm and is sometimes necessary, if there is an obvious spanner in the works or a lengthy delay. A visit there in which I was lucky enough to get to see the head of the section definitely saved my application, which SB had  incompetently botched, and I was called for interview quickly after the error was corrected. It also made a subsequent visit and my interview easier because I already knew her. Hopefully, it is less necessary to go out there under the current regime, while applications are tending to take around three years, compared to up to a decade or more in the recent past. But putting a face to your file can’t hurt as long as you polite and well dressed like Greenchair.

15 minutes ago, qualtrough said:

It's been just 3 weeks since my NIA interview, but I am wondering if you or anyone else can provide advice on follow-up, such as how long I should wait before contacting my NIA guy,  what to specifically ask, etc. I don't want to annoy him, but on the other hand I want to be sure there are any problems or my file hasn't been misplaced, that kind of thing. If anyone has advice on how their interim NIA-MOI period experience went I would appreciate it.

 

One more thing: what is the cover letter known as in written Thai?

No need to contact the NIA after they have interviewed you. Just follow up with SB. It's likely to take 1-3 months before they forward your file to the MoI, depending on how quickly the other agencies reply.  Nowadays they seem to be batching up applicants to forward to the MoI which might make it take more time. I think I followed up three months after the NIA interview, only to find that they had forwarded my file one month after the interview but kept quiet about it.  I would suggest that following up with SB 3-4 months after the NIA interview would be appropriate but I don't think they mind people following up.  Remember there are a lot of Chinese and Indian applicants that use agents who are usually very aggressive Thai Chinese or Thai Indian types that you will come across in the SB office, if you go there often enought.  So SB must get badgered by them  all the time.  A polite farang on the phone or on LINE is unlikely to bother them. 

Maybe someone else can chip in the precise term for a covering letter.  I just asked if the file had been forwarded to the MoI and the officer responded with a copy of the letter.

On the dual citizenship issue there are posts in other threads where look krung (half-Thais) living abroad had entered Thailand on a foreign passport and then sorted out a Thai passport while in the country, which they tried to use to leave Thailand after overstaying on the foreign passport.  On more than one occasion Thai Immigration was able to make the match with the foreign passport used for entry, despite them having completely different names in their Thai passports, and forced them to pay the overstay fines on the grounds that they had chosen to enter as foreigners and had to close the loop with their foreign passports.  (This is a position one could probably argue in court but when you've got a plane to catch, it's easier just to pay up and go.)  On the other hand, others have posted they left the country on a new Thai passport with a different name from the foreign passport they entered on and were not picked up for overstaying. I think it is very likely that Immigration would be able to detect a blacklisted person using another person, if they can pick up overstayers with different names like this.  With the same name in both passports, I would guess the chance of a black listed person being detected would be excess of 90%.

Luckily for Mr Tim he has at least a 50% chance of his prediction being correct.

On 7/22/2018 at 1:50 PM, GabbaGabbaHey said:

9 months since NIA. Application also sent to MOI in March. No letter received so far.

As Yankee99 points out SB seems to be batching up the applications now and sending them to the MoI with a brief group covering letter, rather than a detailed covering letter for each application, as in the past.  Whatever the format, you need to try to get a copy of the covering letter from SB.  My experience in following up my application with the MoI was that they always asked for the date of the covering letter as a reference and wanted to see the copy when I went there in person. Things seem to be running a lot more smoothly under the current government, so hopefully you will never need to follow up with the MoI.  However, things could revert back again and it is best to be prepared anyway.

This seems consistent with the president of the US is saying about undesirablity of a free press and it would a US journalist and media organization.

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

Thanks, point taken, actually I will apply and I will do it in Bangkok.

 

From my understanding the Special Branch is located with the police headquarters complex on Rama 1, opposite Central World. 

 

I googled for the initial form with no success, is the application form on-line?

 

Correct. You go down Henri Dunant Road and go in the last entrance to National Police HQ before the Police Nursing College. Pass the display of SB motor cycles. Pass the criminal records office in your right and the next one is the SB nationality section on the ground floor, Building 24, if I remember rightly. The application form is usually on the SB website along with a lot of other information in Thai only but you don’t need the form. SB will fill it out for you when you have satisfied all the requirements.

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

In my own case I live permenantly, in the North

Re your enquiry about citizenship, people have successfully applied in Chiang Mai but I doubt, if any of the other Northern provinces would be able and willing to handle an application.  The Act requires applicants in the provinces to apply to Special Branch in their province, probably for the ostensible convenience of applicants and the ease of local SB checking their backgrounds. The problem is that it is a complex process and it would be a lot of work for a provincial SB HQ to figure out how to do it for a one-off case. They would need to make many calls to the responsible Interior Ministry department at Lamlukka who tend to be contemptuous of the police and may be uncooperative. Most provincial SB HQs will either flatly refuse to process a citizenship application, deny it’s their job or agree to do it but just give you the run around  until you give up or try to process it as best they can but mess it up. Typically applicants in provinces other than CM, Chonburi and Phuket end up having to get on to a friend’s tabien Baan in Bangkok for a few years in order to apply successfully, which involves a number of trips to Bangkok. For some, particularly those without PR, all this may be worth the trouble. For others happy with PR, it might not be. I applied after 14 years of PR and it was worth it for me, as I wanted to be able to own land in my own name among other things and, fortunately, I live in Bangkok.

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Thanks for that, interesting to know. In my own case I live permenantly, in the North with my adult Thai son and his Thai wife and kids. I have no family whatever or home nowadays in my original country. Thailand is home in every respect and I've always been careful to get a multiple exit/re-entry stamp in my passport and PR book every 12 months and get the red police book updated well before the due date. So far so good. Thanks again.

 

 

 

If you don’t plan to travel abroad and don’t foresee a need to make any emergency trips overseas, you can just let your re-entry permit and residence book endorsement lapse and only do it, if you decide to travel abroad. Letting them lapse is only a problem, if it happens while you are outside the Kingdom.

8 hours ago, THAIJAMES said:

 

Thank you.  I will try my best to keep my PR ?

A friend of mine actually lost his PR as he had to have emergency surgery performed while on an overseas trip and couldn't make it back before his endorsement expired.  No amount of appeals with medical certificates could save him because it is mandated in the Immigration Act and no one has discretion not to cancel it under any circumstances.  Immigration were hugely apologetic about the cancellation but did help him reapply and fast tracked his application, so he got it back within a year.  However, that was in the days when 12 months was par for the course for all PR applicants.  I have heard of someone getting his PR in 10 months last year but it is still better to hang on to it. If there is any risk of being delayed overseas and your re-entry is running out, get it endorsed early before you travel.

55 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Thank you, just a couple more question if you don't mind.

 

Does holding PR strongly improve your chances of gaining approval, or just help a little bit?

 

I saw a thread years back which had some details of a points system, from memory it mentioned that, as people get older it somehow reduces your overall points total to a situation where approval becomes difficult to impossible. I'm 73 years old.  

 

Is it true about the age points item, and does holding PR give some counter-balance to the age points item?

 

Look forward to your comments, when convenient.

Here is the current points allocation system introduced in 2010. PR definitely gives you an advantage over those applying solely on the basis of marriage in getting the 50 out of 100 points needed for your application to be accepted by Special Branch.  You get 5 out of 10 for being over 60 but you get 20 points for having PR for 10 years or more.  The guys without PR applying on the basis of  marriage have to scrabble around a bit to get the 50 points because they start off 20 points down, as they get zero for residence. After they amended the law in 2008 to allow males with Thai wives to apply without PR they bumped up the points for PR and eliminated the points for having a wife and kids to make it harder for them.  Because they have a waiver from the requirement for knowledge of the Thai language, they also increased the points for Thai language and introduced the Knowledge of Thailand test in Thai.  All to little avail though, as many guys,  who can only speak one or two words of Thai, applying on the basis of a Thai wife are managing to scrape through the points system, usually younger guys with incomes above the minimum. 

If you are working and earning over the minimum B80,000 for PRs without a Thai wife and speak acceptable Thai you should easily qualify. Best thing is to go to Special Branch in Bangkok with your PR docs, passport and WP and consult with them. They will probably urge you to apply on the spot, if you live in Bangkok which is their jurisdiction. Having a residence in most provinces outside Bangkok is a problem though, as there is usually no one to take your application.  Lots more info here.

Points Allocation 2010 2 EN.doc

6 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

To Arkady,

 

Interesting subject, I got PR some 20+ years ago and still hold it, I was advised by a lawyer years ago that PR had no meaning / didn't count in terms of achieving citizenship.

 

Could you please share an overall comment regarding the current situation; PR as a conduit to citizenship.

 

Further, for PR holders 5 years / 20 years, do the other 'qualifying factors' still apply or are they different. Example, more recently another lawyer in a casual conversation said that currently citizenship applicants have to hold a current work permit, in place for at least 3 years. 

 

I would very much appreciate your comments. Thanks.

 

 

The first lawyer was wrong but the second one is right.  PR is the only route to citizenship for males who are not married to Thais. You need to be able to show with tax receipts, work permit and salary confirmation letter that you are working in the Kingdom and have been doing so for at least 3 years.  It doesn't need to be the same job and you can change jobs within the 3 year qualifying period. Unlike applying for PR you need to keep your job after you have applied and during the application process, at least until you have been interviewed at the ministry but preferably until the bitter end, in case there is a change of minister and the new one recalls files for eligibility checking.  These two requirements are to satisfy the requirements in the Nationality Act that applicants for naturalisation should be resident in the Kingdom and have an occupation.  

If you have PR, you don't need a Thai wife to apply for citizenship or to be married at all but with no Thai wife, the minimum salary required during the 3 year qualifying period is B80,000 a month, as opposed to B40,000 with a  Thai wife.

2 hours ago, YetAnother said:

quite the pure thai thinking, especially from a district chief who has to deal with a lot of non-thais;

there are other channels for citizenship, some available, but in practice not quite usable, to us expats

For expats working in Thailand there is a very usable route to citizenship by naturalization. Snce 2008 those with Thai wives no longer need to get PR first or be able to speak Thai and the fee is only 5,000 baht. Those with Thai husbands don’t need to be working or have PR or be able to speak Thai.

1 hour ago, THAIJAMES said:

 

I think that if you lost your PR from exiting the country without getting a re-entry permit,  you could still apply for citizenship because the requirement is not for PR but for residence for 5 years to be shown as proof either through the red book or your name on the blue tabien baan.

 

Am I correct in assuming this?

 

You are incorrect. The Nationality Act does not define the 5 years' residence but the guidelines issued by the Interior Ministry define it as 5 years with PR. If your PR has been cancelled, you are definitely not eligible to apply for citizenship on the basis of PR. You will have to apply for PR again and have it for 5 years before applying for citizenship.  

58 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

About applying for citizenship after receiving PR.

 

Anyone know if it's still 5 years (for a foreigner not married to a Thai)?

 

Or has it been reduced?

 

thanks

The Nationality Act requires 5 years’ residence in the Kingdom but does not define this, leaving it open to interpretation by the MoI. In the not too distant past some people managed to slip through with less than 5 years’ PR but current interpretation is that you must have 5 years’ PR. A friend went to Soecial Branch to enquire about this a few weeks ago and he was told that under the current government they are insisting on 5 years’ PR and it was not worth trying for special treatment without ministerial level connections.

9 hours ago, KevT said:

During the 3 years of the PR process, if you are employed and have a home in Thailand, are you allowed to leave the country for short-term travels (see family, to travel)? If so, would it be seen badly and affect your chances of getting PR? What is the duration that is allowed?

If you mean the 3-year qualifying period before you apply for PR, you just need to maintain continuous visas and work permits and must have been employed in the same job for at last 12 months before you apply.  No one cares if you leave the country for business or leisure during that time, as long as you remain qualified through continuous employment in Thailand with the proper documentation.  Once your application is in process, you get automatic 6 monthly extensions of stay from the PR section at CW until you either get PR or get rejected.  Again no one cares, if you leave the country during the process, as long as you keep your 6-monthly extensions current.  You can even become unemployed or retire during that time and it doesn't affect your application.  

The only except might be someone who maintained all the correct employment documentation during the 3-year qualifying period but had spent most of the time abroad.  That would lead them to suspect that the employment was fake.

2 hours ago, sanchobkk said:

Hi i ve been following up.this thread for a while, and i didnt find anything about how long the whole process takes ? I think it iaed to be something like 3 years (from the first application to the thai id card pick up step), but it may have changed ? Any recent experience is welcome.

Thanks very much

There is no publicly disclosed time horizon for the entire process, although the current interior minister is believed to have set some internal targets for this and has certainly speeded things up considerably, since he took office after the coup in 2014.  Around three years seems to be a reasonable expectation under the current government but no one can say what will happen once there is a change of government and interior minister.  Most likely there will be reversion to norm either immediately or over time and the norm before the 2014 coup was a process that took 3-8 years or so for most applicants with some outliers that were more or less than that range.  The fastest I heard of was 18 months and the longest was 11 years.  The very short ones probably had good connections to the minister but there was usually no rhyme or reason why applicants were left cooling their heels for over 5 years - files probably just covered up at the bottom of an in-tray.  

On 6/28/2018 at 7:06 PM, yankee99 said:

Next step SB should contact you when your file is ready/goes to moi. 

 

 

Personally {just a feeling} i think the NIA interview is very important and weighs heavily on the process as from what others have said its longer and more intense then the moi interview. 

It makes sense for the NIA to be taking its role in the process more seriously now that there are a large number of applicants that have not already been exhaustively scrutinized by Immigration in the PR process, as was the case in the past. But my sense is that the MOI checks files carefully before the interviews and sometimes summons candidates for pre-interview screening and may reject them before the interview, if deemed unqualified. The other agencies on the MOI interview panel may also ask for a review of qualifications after the interview, which can account for the rare cases of rejection after the interview. While the MOI interview is less of a raw fact checking exercise than the NIA, the fact checking there occurs more behind the scenes and the MOI can theoretically recommend the use of the minister’s discretion. But ministers seem to use their discretion only on the timing of their signature and fortunately the current encumbent is quick with his pen

3 hours ago, samran said:

I think there is a relatively 'new' class for foreign men married to Thai's who are now applying for this. More than ever, I've noticed and ever larger cohort of professionals who have made Thailand home - and the way that the government has structured it, you basically have to be in this category if you are ever going to be able to apply. Its still a relatively small, but very much wanted group of people, based on policy makers I've spoken to.

 

But I still think you are right in that over time, there will be some re-jigging of the rules, misguided as they may be (or not!).

 

One thing I'll note was my surprise at the other end of the spectrum, foreign women married to Thai's. My wife recently shared on one of those secret FB forums for foreign women married to Thai men her experience of getting citizenship, thinking she was helping people out. 

 

Turns out that many of them don't qualify - the 30K per month requirement is too high. Not to mention the paperwork was too much for some to cope with.

 

It was food for thought for me that despite the appearance of the rules making it easier on paper for women to apply, the 30K income requirement appears to be been set too high for many - and perhaps intentionally so. 

It must be a tough life for farang women married to Thai guys who either can’t make the minimum income requirement or just can’t get the paperwork together for the wife’s citizenship application. The fascination of being on a permanent holiday in Thailand might wear off at some point under those circumstances, particularly if children arrive. Actually I was under the impression that the husbands only needed to show income of B15,000 a month and only going back one tax year.

There are also a lot more women from neighboring countries marrying Thai men and settling in Thailand. Many of them must be workers who come under the annually renewed MOUs. In Ubon where Mrs Arkady’s mater hails from quite a few local men have acquired Lao wives. I am not sure on which side of the border they met. A lot of locals there are doing business in Laos now. I guess there a lot of cross border marriages with Laotians, Cambodians and Burmese in all border provinces. There is not much cultural or linguistic difference between Laotians and Isaan people and there are also many Khmer and Shan speaking parts of Thailand along the Cambodian and Burmese borders. Surprisingly a lot of Thai guys married to women from neighboring countries managed to get citizenship for their wives and they were included in the long backlog approved by Gen Anuphong soon after the coup.