Arkady

Let's hope for the best, as Jay says. Anutin's father, Chaovarat, was interior minister from 2008 to 2011, as a proxy for Anutin who was banned at the time. However, the BJP was still absolutely controlled by Newin (also banned at the time), who had done the deal with the military to have Abhisit take over as PM from Thaksin's brother-in-law. Chaovorat was a very nice man, well disposed towards farangs whom I had the privilege to play golf with once. However, there were not many approvals on his watch and there were allegations that he was not allowed to sign anything, including citizen approvals without Newin's permission. Even thought Newin is still regarded as the ultimate owner of BJP, Anutin is not beholden to him in the way his father was in those days, so things could go in any direction. We should also bear in mind that the new ministerial regulations (the first update since 1967) that were ordered in a cabinet resolution in around January 2022 never got published in the RG under the Prayut administration for reasons unknown, as it was announced they were ready in December 2022. The new minister could order them to be revamped, published as is or continue to leave them on ice.

The bureaucratic requirements for documentation are a bit irksome in Thailand and it takes a long time but his is true of many countries. My brother complained about the long wait for US citizenship and he had to have a green card first. They held on to his passport for some time while he was applying for citizenship, so he couldn't go on business trips without going through some rigmarole to get it back. They also held up his citizenship because a judge with a heavy foreign accent complained that he had shown no documentary evidence that he was fluent in English, despite being UK citizen and having graduated from British school and university. Germany has got easier but still harder than most other European countries and has the requirement to surrender non-EU citizenship which is no longer common in Europe. I was born in Germany at a time when most countries, including the UK and Thailand, gave citizenship automatically to anyone born there but Germany never did that. It might have been nice to have an EU passport post-Brexit.

I noticed someone replied to a post from 2007 on this issue of why would someone from a developed country apply for Thai citizenship. This is a fairly pointless discussion as it is pretty obvious that being a citizen of a country to which you have immigrated and intend to remain has many advantages, such as remaining indefinitely without immigration or WP hassles, owning your own business, owning your own land etc. I wouldn't say it's much easier for a Thai to get German citizenship than vice versa. I have the impression that German citizenship has traditionally been one of the most difficult in Europe to obtain and they will rarely allow naturalised citizens to retain their original nationality. Even the UK that was traditionally relatively easy has introduced a notoriously hard Life in Britain exam for Indefinite Leave to Remain which you have to obtain to be eligible for citizenship. In reality getting Thai citizenship is not that difficult for males working in Thailand but there is a lot of false mythology about how difficult it is and that you must have connections, Thai children, pay or bribe and such like. Mainly it just takes time and a lot of patience but everyone who is qualified normally gets it in the end.

You are right. There is no point in getting hot under the collar about this issue, unless something is denying your right to do something like buy land. My brother is a naturalized American, who has lived in the US for over 30 years and worked for the government. He says that Americans sometimes tell him he has no right to express an opinion on things like politics because he is not a real American. I guess you get these attitudes towards naturalized citizens all over, even in the land of the free that is founded on immigration and relieving the indigenous population of their land and way of life.

I have been taking quite a few domestic flights recently and one thing that irritates me slightly is that the security people always take an inordinately long time scrutinising my ID card and comparing the name on the boarding card, even though I always book using my middle names to match my ID card. It can't be because they have to read the English because the boarding cards are all in English and they are capable of reading English versions of long Thai names and comparing with the boarding pass in a fraction of the time they spend staring at mine. I can only assume they are thinking, "Cripes. Never seen one of these before. It might be a fake ID card which could get me into trouble, if I let it through." Meanwhile, Chinese businessmen with fake Thai ID cards probably just glide past them.

Continuing the UPS saga I re-registered myself with the "paperless customs" at the 120 Years Old Building (its real name) in Klong Toey yesterday. Of course UPS's story that Customs would demand a foreign passport for Thais who were not born Thai was utter nonsense. I registered using only my ID card as usual. The UPS girl also had some other weird incorrect notions about clearing stuff from customs. She speaks excellent English and seems very friendly but I think it is a case being so hard to find fluent English speaking staff that they take people whose only qualification is speaking English but they have nothing sensible to say in any language. Says a lot about Thailand's hopeless education system.

I was told by one of the registration heads that the interview is a Land Dept requirement and it makes sense to me. I have only done one transaction in Bkk and had the interview and was asked for a copy of naturalization certificate. But I can imagine that many land offices in Bkk and surrounding provinces dispense with these formalities. The interview is not a big deal anyway and can be funny. Once in Isaan I was asked what I planned to do with 45 rai and I answered "liang ngua" (raise cows in Lao) to get some laughs. Another thing they can ask about is selling prices that look below market price but just above appraisal value to avoid tax. The seller, who was a well known and astute local contractor, was asked if he really wanted to sell at way below the market price to a farang. Try to keep a straight face. 555.4 Re blue book. All my dealings with blue books have taken place at the district office. I didn't know the Land Dept had anything to do with them.

The one who asked for the original naturalization certificate claimed there are a lot of fake ID cards and she wanted to cover herself with more documentation in case it turned out to be fake or that my Thai nationality had already been revoked, which she obviously saw as an everyday thing. She really annoyed me, particularly when telling me to put it in Mrs A's name instead and I lost my cool a bit, which I don't usually do with Thais, specially officials. I told her to take my ID card next door to the district office and check it their database, if the Land Office doesn't have card readers and she really thought it was fake. Since she had Chinese features I told her that nearly all the cases of fake IDs reported in the news are Chinese and I never seen a case of a farang and it would be extremely high risk and foolish for farangs to try to get away with fake ID cards, wouldn't it? I suggested she should check the Thai nationality of anyone who comes in to buy land with Chinese features and she would have a much better chance of finding a fake ID card. This made one of her staff with very Isaan features lose control and start peeing with laughter. The boss lost face, went red and turned silent. She was probably not used to having anyone arguing back at her in the office. When it was all done, she turned all nice, probably feeling she had overstepped the mark, and came over to try to sell Mrs A some low quality cosmetics she was selling in a moonlighting job and they did the add LINE thing. But now I look at it like Thais who change their name, e.g. Mrs A's brother, and have to lug around copies of their name change certificate to government offices for the rest of their lives. I come armed with a copy of the certificate along with my ID card and TB.

It depends on what you do after getting Thai nationality but I have had to produce my naturalization certificate on multiple occasions and have been asked for the original several times.

I think she just the questions about how long I had had Thai nationality and former nationality to lead up to her key question about dual nationality. I can't say what she would have done, if I had given the wrong answer, but it is possible she would have told me to put the land in Mrs Arkady's name instead, rather than make the seller leave with nothing. She knew Mrs A was there because she had signed the spousal consent. Another head of registrations in another province, who objected to me not having my original naturalisation certificate tried to force me to put the land in Mrs A's name which really peed me off and caused a bit of tension between me and the missus. It's not the job of land offices to start rows between couples about whose name conjugal assets are registered under. I emphasise that these are all land offices serving rural communities upcountry and most have probably never seen a farang with Thai nationality before. Land Department regulations require that the head of registrations interviews the buyer and seller together before finalising the transfer. The purpose of this to try to make sure that the seller has been properly paid and that there is no scam to avoid payment. In our last case there was a slight issue because the seller hadn't brought enough cash to pay her share of the tax which was more than she expected. So I had to lend her the money which was nearly 100k. Because of this I hadn't handed over the cashier cheque yet as we all agreed to go to the bank together afterwards and let her cash the cheque and repay me the temporary loan which we did. The head raised her eyebrows at this and wrote a two line note about it on the sales and purchase contract that is lodged at the Land Department, obviously so there would be a record, if I reneged and ran off without paying. The interview is quite important for transactions that are sales with the right of redemption (khai faak) as the sellers very often don't understand how that works and frequently get conned by the buyers. Unfortunately, despite the Land Department's best efforts to mitigate things there are a huge number of scams that result in poor rural folk selling their inherited land without being paid in full. A very common one doing the rounds is for buyers, usually from somewhere else to offer to pay a big deposit but they need the deed transferred to their name on payment of the deposit, so that they can raise financing to pay the balance because they need to pledge the deed to borrow the money. A sale and purchase agreement is entered into showing that there is an outstanding payment for the balance but the balance is never paid leaving the poor farmer to file a case in court but the scamster will claim the seller reneged on conditions, if they try to follow up. The missus and I came across one of these scamsters who wasted 3 days of our time trying to set us up for a sting like this. When we realised it was a scam, instead or remonstrating with him, we continued playing along and then just stood him up and switched off the phones. But many poor farmers are taken in. Apologies for the digression but buying land and dealing with land offices is something that quite a few of us do when we get Thai nationality and there is very little knowledge amongst farangs about how it works.

This was clearly a naive request from the UPS staffer. Customs always accept my ID card without question and I have cleared quite a bit of stuff from customs since becoming Thai.

I am currently trying to get an import cleared through customs by UPS. In order to register with the paperless customs to import an item of more than B40k value, the UPS girl told me to submit a copy of my passport. "But I have an ID card, of which I have already sent you a copy because I am a Thai citizen." "Yes, but in the case of someone who is not born Thai, Customs require a copy of their passport of original nationality." "I think you will find that is not correct. Anyway I don't have a foreign passport to give you." Another example of the way many Thais do not regard as Thai at all. I wonder how Thais or other foreigners living in farang countries as naturalized citizens would react to such idiotic requests.

Just back from buying a plot of land in my own name upcountry. The obligatory interview with the head of registrations, who always sits at the back of the room, went like this. "How long have you had Thai nationality?" "Do you have a copy of your naturalization certificate?" "What is your original nationality?" "Do you have two nationalities?" "That's good. You renounced your former nationality in line with the Act." (No enunciation documents requested). I can only assume that this line of questioning was based on a belief that Thais with dual nationality are not really Thai and should be treated as foreigners by the Land Department. I wonder if she asks look krung the same questions and what she would say if someone said their original nationality was Kiwi which is impossible to renounce. I doubt this line of questioning has been mandated by the Land Dept or Interior Ministry but it could be a new instruction for all I know. We all know people like district officers are keen on inventing their own silly rules, as they don't have enough real work to do or are unwilling to do it. Also I once had a problem in a land office in another province, where my original naturalization certificate was demanded, even though I presented a copy, and was asked to sign a silly essay certifying that I really had Thai nationality which had not yet been revoked. I have bought about 20 different plots since becoming Thai. My experience has been that in most cases they ask for a copy of the naturalization certificate but don't ask any questions about it. In one or two cases, it was not requested but in one of those they also didn't bother with the obligatory interview with the head of registrations because the seller had good connections there. .

I think we all owe a deep debt of gratitude to Dbrenn for starting this thread way back in May 2007 and sharing his experiences. I had been thinking about applying for some time when I first found the thread not long after it began. But I had no idea how the process worked in reality and, like many, I assumed it was really hard and biased in favour of those with big connections and/or willing to pay substantial bribes. Reading this thread for a few weeks incentivised me to get off my posterior and start getting my qualifications line up. And how much has changed since 2007. At that time males could only apply on the basis of PR. The amendment of the Act allowing males with Thai wives to bypass PR came only 2008 but the guidelines were never amended to take account of this and it took a while before applications started coming in on that basis. Since 2007 the documentation has become a lot more burdensome with requirements for notarised documents and home country police clearance etc.

I also applied 27 years ago and found the staff pleasant with the exception of the officers who did the two interviews I was subjected to who were both captains I think and not very nice. Nobody spoke in English but there was no requirement to be able to speak Thai in those days and you could use an interpreter, if desired. I had a 1.5 hour interview and then a 2.5 hour interview a month or two later. Both interviews were conducted in a room with a soap opera playing on the TV at high volume and with other candidates being interviewed in the same room at the same time at the old Suan Plu office. Eventually I was told at the second interview I would be rejected because I was working for a foreign rep office that was unable to pay Thai tax, except VAT because it was not allowed to receive income which was all booked offshore. Of course there was no regulation that specified that applicants had to working for a company that had the ability to pay corporate income tax. I was told that this was not final and I had a chance to "fix things" to impress the two committees. So I called everyone I knew who knew people and was lucky to find a major general at Immigration to vouch for me there and and a senior guy at the NIA which has a seat on the inter agency committee for PR, which is the last step before the minister's signature, to vouch me there. Job done and neither of these gentlemen asked for any favours in return, as they were good friends of friends. In fact the senior NIA official didn't even met as he said he would take his nephew's word for it. My approval was fully legit because the law and regulations didn't specify the need for corporate income tax. At that time people were definitely paying bribes to Immigration get through more easily, as there was no thread like this and there was a lot of mystique about how difficult it was to get PR. But bribes were not paid via law firms or agents because the police didn't trust them to keep quiet or to hand over the full amount. Those who wanted to pay had to find a police general with contacts at Immigration through personal connections and the payment was made through several nominee accounts before it arrived at Immigration. The name card of the police general who had taken the bribe was stapled to the application, so that when it went to the internal committee at Immigration they knew they had to approve on the nod and who to collect the cash from. I onlyl heard of this system after I had already applied and had no interest in paying a bribe which sounded quite risky anyway. In the event, it seemed to me that those who paid were simply spared the interviews (a friend who was proud of paying a bribe had only a single 5 minute interview where he produced the name card of the general who had taken the bribe and the officers winked, saying, "Oh yes, P' X will fix everything for you," and told him the interview was done and he had his PR within 6 months of applying). Those who didn't pay passed anyway, if they were fully qualified, but perhaps waited a few months more, as there was a rule in those days that everyone got a reply within 12 months which obviously went by the wayside after Thaksin shook things up for the worse. In my case I wouldn't have got through without connections because I was not qualified according to the unpublished guidelines but since these guidelines were unofficial my connections were able to get me over the line. I am not disputing that it was possible to have an easy time of it in those days, even though I didn't but it could certainly be tough, if they found something in your application they could object to. On the other hand, compared to today the level of documentation and notarisation required them seems very lightweight, even though it seemed a hassle at the time. Also there was no need to to do any interviews in Thai. That was introduced on Thaksin's watch. Best of all was the virtual guarantee you would have a reply within a year, even though the wait seemed a lifetime then. Looking ahead there may be storm clouds on the horizon as Thaksin prepares to install yet another nominee as PM and come home. Any politician as interior minister is likely to be worse than Gen Anuphong has been for the 9 years of Prayut's watch which have actually been relatively benign for foreigners. Under the two Thaksin premiershps things fell into a deep black hole, and the in nominee tenures of Samak, Somchai and Yingluck the approval process for PR and citizenship was decidedly lacklustre. Thaksin will almost certainly insist on PT having the interior ministry due to its power over elections and other things.

I would suggest that anyone rejected as Misty was should get a lawyer and not pay them a bribe but get them to accompany them to CW to enquire politely under which sections of the Immigration Act or related regulations and guidelines they have made the decision to reject the application. They will not be able to reference anything, if the application is word perfect, and the lawyer can then ask them to proceed with the application or face a lawsuit in the Administrative Court, if they still refuse, something which terrifies most bureaucrats as they can be tied up for years in the three levels of the court. This was done by someone going back years in this thread and they did accept his application with with very bad grace. He was initially rejected under the humanitarian category for not having a WP which is not listed as a requirement in the regulations. But at least they gave him a reason for the initial rejection. I think that, if they can't even tell you why the MOI would not like an application, they would back down pretty quickly. If the obstruction was from the lower level of Immigration, it would not make any difference once the file had passed them. If it comes from the MOI, then it would be more difficult and it might be necessary to wait for a new minister. Anyway I am glad that Misty found a more suitable alternative in the LTR visa with digital WP. We have discussed recently why it is unlikely that PRs will ever be offered this option.

You are of course right but the first Working of Aliens law of the early 1970s, which introduced the concept of WPs for the first time, did in fact give a special exemption to PRs. This was unfortunately only a transitional provision but it allowed PRs who were in a job when the law was introduced to apply for a lifetime WP that remained valid as long they worked in the same profession. They were free to change jobs within their profession and take their WP with them. So the original law drafters did expressly consider the position of PRs and it was decided that they needed WPs, even though those lucky enough to qualify for the transitional provisions got lifetime versions. It was not just that PRs were overlooked. The reason for requiring WPs for PRs was undoubtedly because in the early 1970s it was still relatively easy to obtain PR. It was the only option for a visa of more than 3 months, so expats who expected to be in Thailand for more than a couple of months would automatically apply for PR and invariably be approved. Originally PR, when it started in 1927, was given to Chinese arriving off the boats, as long as they could prove they had a profession through which they could support themselves. Since there was so many of the working foreigners were already PRs in the early 1970s were already PRs, it would have been thought pointless to introduce WPs and exempt all PRs permanently. The reason why the long stay visa can be offered with exemption from WPs is that the BOI is in charge of LTR visas and sees them as a way to attract foreign investors and foreigners with high skill levels. So they were prepared to fight for the WP exemption. PR on the other hand is the responsibility of the troglodyte police of the Immigration Bureau who believe that all foreigners are criminals until irrefutably proven otherwise, preferably with evidence presented in brown envelopes. The only thing I recall Immigration fighting for in respect of PRs is when they went into battle with the Labour Ministry to insist that PRs applying for WPs should have 4 Thai employees the same as everyone else. Immigration was able to control that for most others by itself by demanding to see evidence of 4 Thai employees to renew NON-B visas for work but they resented the fact that PRs bypassed them and could go straight to the Labour Ministry which didn't require them to have any Thai employees (I think the same may have been true for people working on marriage extensions). Immigration won the fight and the Labour Ministry started to demand to see evidence of the Thai employees to issue WPs for PRs. I used to have a WP with zero Thai employees and when I heard the rules had changed, I went along to the Labour Ministry to see if it was really true. A middle ranking officer was called out to explain to me that it was, indeed, true and he admitted it had been done at the insistence of Immigration. So who is there to stick up for PR rights in this and demand parity with long stay visa holders? However, it is really unfortunate that the reasons for not doing this are embedded in the conditions that prevailed in the early 1970s and that the people responsible for policy don't even have a clue this is the case.

I don't think there has been any credible suggest that it has been possible to expedite things by paying a bribe of that order in recent times, although it might have happened in the dim and distant past. The process was cleaned up by Anuphong in 2014 and he has been minister since then. Some people will always trying to see if their high level connections can help get things expedited (some willing to pay and others not). Feedback that I have heard recently is that nothing can be done to expedite things even with connections and no one has been asked for a bribe. Just wait in the queue.

A friend was told by someone who claimed to have an inside source at the MOI that there were about 1,000 in the queue for interviews at the moment. If this number is correct, that probably translates in about about a 2 year queue at least which is still faster than before the 2014 coup when 3.5 years was the typical wait. It is impossible to predict how things will go under a new government but, suffice it to say, an old style politician replacing Gen Anuphong as Interior Minister would not be a positive. Gen Anuphong, who has been minister since 2014, streamlined the citizenship and PR processes and improved transparency to reduce the potential for corruption but the weeds have been noticeably growing back over the last couple of years.

SB insisted that I should apply as married to a Thai, even though we had been married for less than 3 years and junior had not yet arrived. They claimed that having PR meant that it was not necessary to have been married 3 years. I was very skeptical and I insisted that I wanted to apply on the basis of PR and was happy to sing, as I had already done for points and got full marks for Thai. Actually I believed they had done the application on the basis of PR until 2.5 years later when I chased up the MOI and was told that my application could not proceed because SB had written the covering letter referencing the part of the Act that gives exemption from knowledge of the Thai language to those married to Thai women. The procedure to fix that was that the MOI knocked my file back to SB to correct their mistake. This involved getting a new salary letter, tax receipts, bank statement and resubmitting WP etc which took SB 6 months. Another officer at SB, who was not my case officer but was the longest standing officer in the outer room, told me when no one else was around that his colleagues had done the same thing to several people and the files were all coming back. He said he had advised them to frame the applications on the basis of PR but they refused to listen because they thought the singing was too difficult and were worried about being criticised the MOI for sending over applicants that couldn't sing well enough. He also said that I was lucky that the MOI sent my file back before interview as finding someone is unqualified at or after the interview means that the application is axed and you have to start again from scratch. He said that they had just got 5 or 6 back after interview and showed me the files. Most were people with PR for less than 5 years. The MOI had been letting people use time on a WP before they got PR to count towards the 5 years but a new section head had reversed the policy. Some people with less than 5 years PR still insisted on applying because they or their lawyers knew of others who had got through like that but all were knocked back.

Must have been extremely stressful, especially when going for the MOI interview. I was stressed out enough at the thought of the jv I was working in collapsing due to classic differences of opinion between the Thai and US partners. It did in the end but a few months after I got my ID card. I was summoned to the MOI before my interview and told to bring WP and old WP. This was because I had changed jobs during the 3 year qualifying period and SB had stupidly refused to include the copy of the old WP I gave them in the file. They checked both WPs for breaks and told me it was good there were no breaks because they would have had to axe my application, if they had found any. Hopefully SB no longer makes this obvious mistake.

Things may have changed but when I did it, it was possible for married applicants to sing for points, if they insisted hard. In fact the way the points are structured, it seems that you have to be a successful singer, if you want to get points for reading and/or writing. Although my application category was later changed to PR, when I first applied I was classified as married. Not boasting but I insisted on doing all the Thai language tests and got 15 points for them, not that I needed the points, as I was in the low 90s. Thai Language Ability: Able to speak and understand spoken Thai – 8 points Able to speak and understand spoken Thai and sing the National and Royal Anthems – 10 points Able to speak and understand spoken Thai, sing the National and Royal Anthems, and read Thai – 13 points Able to speak and understand spoken Thai, sing the National and Royal Anthems, and read and write Thai – 15 points

That was exactly the advice SB gave me when I wasn't sure I would remain in employment throughout, i.e. start own business to get a WP. However, quite a few people have stopped working at some point during the process and got through. Most advisable is of course to have a WP at least up until the MOI interview. It's very rare to have docs checked after that.

These songs are not easy for a non-singer, particularly the Royal Anthem. For that one the trick is to start near the very bottom of your vocal range as the song has a very broad range and, if you start too high, you will be screeching the high notes or will be forced to drop an octave which sounds horrible. I can read drum music. So I found it easier to learn the rhythm of the melodies and can see where it goes up and down.

If you retire before your interview, you can probably wing it and just pretend to be still working. But you the run the risk of being asked for your documents including WP when you show up for the interview or before. Apparently they have not been asking for documents recently but things can change. After the interview the risk diminishes significantly.