Arkady

SB is usually reluctant to let applicants sing, if they don't have to. Most renditions of the songs must be fairly painful. But singing to SB is a breeze, if you know the songs and, if you need to points or just want the challenge, I would go ahead. Singing at the MOI for those who have to do it is another manner. You get to sing unaccompanied into a microphone in front of 30 or so senior civil servants which is nerve wracking for most. When I was interviewed at the MOI I was scheduled near the end and things were moving slowly in the queue. One the ladies in the office where we were waiting came back from sitting in on the interviews and reported that a Chinese couple who were applying together and could hardly speak Thai had both been made to repeat the songs several times. (I also knew someone personally who had to repeat the songs a couple of times). I asked her what happens if they can still can't sing well enough after a couple of repeats and she said they would be invited to interview again at a later date after working on their singing. I imagine that after being made to repeat the songs you would not perform very well in the rest of the interview. For conversing with SB officers and doing the reading test, I would recommend that you make a list of vocabulary that comes up in the Nationality Act and the Life in Thailand test and learn it. Words like nationality, minister, Special Branch, Royal Gazette, minister's discretion can all come up, as can words to do with the Royal Family. A useful exercise is to read the Nationality Act in Thai with a translation at hand to note down all the key words. Since this vocab is repeated over and over in the text, it will eventually sink in as you read. For the writing test I was asked to write out the full name and address of the SB section that handles nationality applications which I knew because I had just got the bank to redo my bank statement officially addressed to them.

You may well right. The document is a bit confusing, as it cites the list quoted by yourself above and the higher levels in my earlier post. I had assumed that the higher band would apply as there is a reference to income on which tax is paid. I have attached the original 2010 Thai document that I saved when it was available on SB's website for those who are interested. I can't find any more recent publication on it online. For anyone applying for whom this is important, I would suggest clarifying with SB. Points TH.pdf

SECURITY OF PROFESSION Income (monthly) on which tax paid: 80,000 to 100,000 – 15 points 100,000 to 120,000 – 20 points Over 120,000 – 25 points OR Income (monthly) on which tax paid in the case of those married to a Thai national, or having Thai children, or having graduated from high school in Thailand: 40,000 to 60,000 – 15 points 60,000 to 80,000 – 20 points Over 80,000 – 25 points The above is from the points allocation missive published in 2010 following new guidelines which changed the way points were allocated significantly. The pre-2010 system allocated points on the amount of tax paid but this was eliminated in 2010, although you still hear people talking about the amount of tax you have to pay, as if this were still actually required information. However, a vestige of it seems to be the separate list of pre-tax salary levels above. There is also a separate list of slightly lower salaries where tax is not mentioned which I assume was net of tax and has probably been ignored by officials. There may have been revisions to the wording but I don't have any later versions. As far as I know the salary levels remain the same, since there have been no new guidelines since then but I would be happy to be corrected on this. It's worth noting that these salary levels have been in effect now for 14 years and, when introduced, raised the minimum salaries from 30,000 and 70,000 for married and unmarried applicants respectively. A new set of ministerial regulations has been drafted to replace the current 1967 regulations which has obviously been left to the next government to introduce. Whenever that happens, there will definitely be a new set of guidelines and points allocation which will no doubt raise these salary levels again. I would expect to see minimum salaries go up to 50,000 for married applicants and 100,000 for unmarried. Borderline salary applicants who are already qualified should apply as soon as possible.

ฺBut no obvious advantage in ditching Thai nationality. Apart from Mr Amatayakul the renunciations all seem to be in favour of citizenships of countries that are very strict in following up to ensure original citizenship has been renounced, once they have granted citizenship by naturalisation. Korea allows 12 months, I think, to submit a renunciation certificate or the Korean citizenship will be revoked. Taiwan is the worst as it actually demands that applicants for naturalisation renounce their citizenship during the application process. This is inhuman as the applicant becomes stateless for a year or more waiting for Taiwanese citizenship. There have been many cases of mail order type brides from Vietnam, Thailand and other countries being divorced by their Taiwanese husbands before the process is finished, thus being made ineligible for naturalisation. This is big problem for ex-Vietnamese women because there is no way to recover Vietnamese citizenship once it has been renounced. Some have had children after being divorced and their children became stateless too, as the Taiwanese fathers abandoned them. Hypocritically Taiwan allows those born Taiwanese to hold dual citizenship. Good point about the lack of mainland Chinese but I think it is very difficult to acquire Chinese nationality by naturalisation and this may not a favorite destination for Thais to move to permanently, marry locals and wish to become citizens. The trend seems more in the opposite direction with wealthy Chinese flocking to Thailand to start businesses and have their children educated in a more liberal environment. I also wonder if the many Chinese who naturalise as Thais all actually renounce their Chinese citizenship. I don't how strictly that is enforced, even though the Chinese embassy is informed about them. I read somewhere that many Chinese who naturalise as Westerners manage to maintain Chinese ID cards, even if they travel to China on Western passports which might give them access to foreign consular protection (if not British). Keeping Chinese ID cards allows them to retain property ownership rights and other things. We have to remember that banning dual citizenship was never China's intention but it was forced on them by SE Asian countries like Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines as a condition of normalisation of diplomat relations in the early 1970s. Those countries were fearful of their Chinese residents' loyalty to the mother country after the Communists took it over. Historically China had always viewed the Chinese diaspora as Chinese and until that point was very happy to issue anyone who could prove Chinese descent with Chinese passports. Chinese Thais born in Thailand up to a certain point in time often preferred not to take up their birthright Thai citizenship. There were no restrictions on foreigners working or owning businesses in Thailand and men could avoid military conscription by not taking up their Thai citizenship, while women would have their Thai citizenship automatically revoked anyway, if they married Chinese citizens. When immigration restrictions were introduced in the 1920s it was easy to get PR. This situation accounts for the provision in the Nationality Act that Thais who have obtain alien books are ineligible to recover Thai nationality. The idea was that Chinese males, for example, could choose to get an alien book at 16, I think, which made them ineligible for conscription as foreigners but they could not change their minds later and take up their Thai citizenship.

I was told by my officer on the phone that HMK had signed but, anyway, as you say, you will only be called for the oath, if he has signed. Later on the officer gave me a colour photocopy of the letter signed by HMK.

My brother is a dual US/UK citizen and I seem to remember him saying something about his US SS would be reduced because he is collecting the UK state pension as well (in the US the UK state pension is worth having because it is not frozen, if you live there). If this is the case, the Thai old age allowance of 600 baht a month probably wouldn't be enough to affect your US SS and Thai SS, if you get it, is only 4,000 baht maximum, generously unchanged for a couple of decades. I think the Thai SS retirement income has only been increased once since it was started in 1990's, although of course, the first pensions only started being payable in the late 2000s. Even so a long time to go without a raise. Odd that Thai workers and unions (such as they are) don't protest about that. The French went ballistic just at being made to work till 64 before getting the state pension vs 67 in the UK which no one complained about.

An interesting academic article on Thai citizenship law. A particularly shocking point raised on P 14 is the case of Leekiang Sae-Tae in 2021. She was born in Thailand to Chinese parents and absented herself from Thailand for 43 years resulting in the revocation of her Thai nationality by the minister in 2008 under Section 17 of the Nationality Act. The Supreme Administrative Court upheld the minister's decision in 2021 in spite of the fact Article 39 of the 2017 Constitution prohibits involuntary revocation of Thai nationality from anyone Thai by birth which includes those who obtain citizenship through birth in Thailand to two foreign parents (post December 1972 both parents must be PRs.) Perhaps the Supreme Administrative Court took the view that the minister's decision should be upheld because the constitution at the time of his original ruling provided no such protection from involuntary revocation for Thais who are Thai from birth. However, the article unfortunately doesn't say whether the constitutional prohibition was addressed or not in the final court case. Perhaps Leekiang Sae-Tae should have brought her case in the Constitutional Court. To date it is Thais born in Thailand to alien parents who have born the brunt of Thai nationality revocations, as shown by records in the RG. Since their numbers are dying out now and Big Joke is busy turning public opinion against naturalised Thais, let's hope that the ministry doesn't get naturalised Thais in its sights instead. Report on Citizenship Law May 2023.pdf

No. 50 seems not too smart to give up his Thai nationality to become an American.

Interesting story. I would speculate that the information about his naturalisation and cancellation of visa was readily available but it never occurred to the goons to check whether he had obtained Thai citizenship, since it is such a rare occurrence. It is odd that that there has never been a case like this with those who didn't bother to cancel their visas but the only known case is someone who taken the trouble to cancel his visa. Seems more worthwhile now to cancel the visa.

Believe it's a use it or lose situation but, if your choice of surname was sufficiently bizarre, it will probably be still available.

You are lucky then. I have also had no problems with national parks and other government venues but have encountered the not Thai enough syndrome on a number of occasions. It has happened at a of couple private sector venues I wanted to take my son too. Of course the government licensing office mentioned above and the BTS and I private club I wanted to join that had dual pricing.

You probably could but you would have to check with the district that surname is still available, if you didn't use when you got your ID card. They explained to me that it is reserved until you get your Thai citizenship and I think 3-6 months after that. For Brits taking a foreign name now means they have to change their name by deed poll in the UK to the Thai name and renew the Brit passport in that name, two different names are no longer allowed, if you want a Brit passport. Some people like the idea of a new identity but it never appealed to me.

Postbag Bangkok Post 27.05.23

Sure but you will have to change your name in the UK to the Thai name by deed poll, if you want to renew the British passport after 10 years, as they no longer different names in UK and foreign passport which they check. Funnily enough in the previous purge against deemed foreign applicants for gun permits after the Chinese gang tried to rob a gunshop in China Town, the criteria of foreigness was a foreign surname. I was actually told by the staff to take a Thai name and I would be approved. But it is more sinister this with the added sniffing out of foreign blood in look krungs.

Some of you may be aware from other threads that I am a shooting sports enthusiast. I was in Wang Burapha, the Bangkok gunshop area in China Town, the other day to go to a repair shop and talked to some gunshop owners I know. The buzz was that a new head of the Bangkok licensing office has been making it a lot more difficult to apply for permits since before the election. One of his new measures is said to be a total ban on new permits for anyone that the new bossman in his enlightened view considers a foreigner. In addition to actual foreigners that includes naturalised Thais and any born Thai with less than two Thai parents. I suspect this would also apply to someone like my son who was born to two Thai parents but has a foreign surname and a father with a foreign name in his tabien baan which is a tell tale sign of foreign blood. I know there are many varied opinions about gun ownership rights and I don't want to start a pro and anti gun digression here. My point is that whatever laws are put in place by parliament should be applied equally to all Thais without discrimination based on race or religion, as mandated by the constitution. A particularly shocking aspect of this is that gun licensing is administered nationwide by DOPA which also also administers Thai citizenship. An agent who makes a living from getting gun permits for people in Bangkok confirmed to me that all this was true and that one of her clients who is a look krung was rejected on grounds of foreign blood. To me this mindset is no different from the Gestapo hunting down people with one sixteenth Jewish blood to be stripped of citizenship and marked down for the death chambers. If DOPA is embarking on this type of course, who knows where it may lead? That this disgusting type of racism emanates from the Interior Ministry is very concerning for the prospects of my son's future life in Thailand. Already he faces unconstitutional discrimination from the military which mandates him to undergo conscription but bans him from being promoted above the rank of private because he has a Thai father who was not Thai from birth (curiously a foreign mother is no problem).

It's probably unlikely that the minister will sign any approvals during the caretaker phase, particularly after being accused of approving the Chinese gambling den owner/ drug dealer's citizenship (even though that one was approved by his predecessor and Anuphong only signed the order to publish it in the RG). He might not approve any more RG announcements either, assuming there are more still pending. Note that he signed the list that has just been published in the RG on 6 February but it took over three months to get published. I don't see any reason why MOI interviews will not be scheduled or why any other part of the process should be put on hold. A friend was told by an MOI insider that the next interviews will be conducted next month.

Definitely 90 day reporting is only for temporary visa holders, not PRs. Here is a reference from Trat Immigration that popped up first in my search and I am sure you can find a better one in Thai to show you HR department. https://www.tratimmigration.com/90-day-reporting/#:~:text=Any foreigner who has received,to be considered on time. For heaven's sake don't give them your docs to do a 90 day report. At best it will cause confusion and annoyance at Immigration. At worst it might cause real problems for your PR status, if they succeed in actually doing the 90 day report for you and somehow dump you back into temporary visa status. You would have thought HR people could do a simple google search themselves but they seem not to be sharpest tools in the shed at most Thai companies.

I think they will make you get a new endorsement for a new white book and cancel the previous one. The only way to find out is to ask them, as this would be an unusual case. Most people apply for a new white book only when they want a new endorsement. I Bangkok I never got the previous books back.

My experience at Chaeng Wattana and Soi Suan Plu before that was that it always took 3-4 days to get a new white book in Bangkok. Worth knowing that you need to get this done in advance, if going on a trip.

Makes sense if there it is only the provincial police HQ in Ubon that can handle PR registrations. There may be other provinces with more foreigners apart from Bangkok that have more than one police station that can handle registrations, e.g. Chonburi, Chiang Mai, Phuket and Prachuab. In Chonburi most of the foreigners reside in Pattaya and in Prachuab most are in Hua HIn. AFAIK Bangkok has an alien registrations officer in every police precint, although many must have virtually nothing to do. No idea about the surrounding provinces that are effectively extensions of Bangkok and have a lot of foreigners living there but working in Bangkok.

Other provinces may be different but it is definitely necessary report a move to a different police precint in Bangkok. I was fined a token amount for not doing this late once. You need to change your tabien baan first.

Work permits may be issued to employees of sole proprietorships and partnerships as well as limited companies but I was also under the impression that Labour Ministry required VAT registration to issue a WP. When I wanted to get a WP working for my own company I had to register the company for VAT first, even though its income was below the threshold for VAT registration. It is very difficult to withdraw from the VAT system once you're in. If you have zero vatable income, you still have to file zero VAT with the RD every month. If the business is paying a salary of B1.2 million p.a. to one employee, it is pretty certain that the RD would assume income over B1.8 million and require VAT registration, if they noticed that. If they decide to do a random audit of the business owner's personal/business tax returns, they will definitely spot this. My company was subjected to a random tax audit which involved 2 separate half days being grilled in the RD. They wanted to fine us about B250k for various things mainly to do with VAT. Eventually I got it down to 36k because they were wrong about the main issue. They assumed the company's service income was vatable but I was able to prove it wasn't because the customer was overseas and no VAT is payable on exported services. But we got fined for mistakes the accountant made which included not filing the monthly zero VAT return.

UK nationality, unlike US nationality, can be renounced and theoretically then recovered at a cost but no idea how straightforward the process would be. The home office delights in keeping Brits and their dependents out of the UK these days.

The singing question has already been adequately addressed. Reading and writing are not currently required by anyone but there are voluntary reading and writing tests which give 3 points for reading only and another 2 points for being able to write as well. Passing Thai language is only required for male or female applicants without Thai spouses applying with PR but male applicants with Thai wives have the option to do any of the tests and sing to boost their points. Generally speaking an intermediate knowledge of spoken Thai and no reading or writing is enough to get you through without a Thai spouse under existing regulations. I think only a small percentage of applications actually take the reading and writing tests. I did and managed to get a perfect score in Thai language including singing which suggests the standard wasn't very high at all. But here's the rub for those planning to apply with PR in a couple of years time and those whose points may be borderline. The law doesn't actually specify the requirements for Thai language. It just says in Section 10.5 "having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations". The current 1967 regulations are being revised and new ministerial regulations are due to be published this year. One of the things the MOI said needed to be more rigorous in the new regulations was language testing which is planned to be upgraded with assistance from Chulalongkorn University. It is as yet unknown how rigorous the new testing will be or when it will come into effect.

I believe you are right that one of the female applicants applying as the wife of a Thai was asked if she could sing the songs - properly a searching question to assess willingness to assimilate, since all Thais should be able to sing the songs. Anyway, it is certainly a good idea to learn them from that perspective, even if you don't have to get them perfect. You are also right in that male applicants married to Thais also don't need to sing but might need/want to offer to sing at SB but not the MOI to get more points. Even though the songs are only worth 2 points, that could make all the difference to a borderline candidate. However, SB usually do their utmost to discourage married applicants from singing because they feel it's very difficult for foreigners and find it excruciating having to listen to most of them. I insisted on singing at SB, despite their efforts to persuade me not to and later found I had to sing at the MOI as my marriage had not be registered long enough to qualify for the exemption. When I was sent up to the director who has an office upstairs at SB he spent about 15 minutes interviewing and chatting. Then he suddenly looked at his watch and apologised that he would not have time to hear me sing as he had to go to a meeting but expressed confidence my singing was good and he would approve it unheard. He obviously had an extreme aversion to listening to foreigners singing the anthems. Luckily at the MOI all went well and I actually got a round of applause which I thought make it clear that the average standard of singing must have been extremely poor. Hint: the Royal Anthem requires a rather broad vocal range, so the key is to start it off almost growling in a low enough key that you have enough range left to reach the highest notes without squeaking or having to drop an octave.