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On 8/18/2017 at 5:28 PM, stud858 said:

Dear overdue coowner.

Non payment and no reply to this notice of non payment will be acknowledged as your acceptance to allow manager to rent out your room to recover costs.

Kindest regards.

JM.

Hey I think I was a condo manager in my previous life.

Would be great if you could legally do that! But of course it would be breaking and entering/trespass and then there would be insurance liability issues - unless there was a by-law that everyone agreed on - which will never happen.  

On 8/13/2017 at 0:56 PM, Nook225 said:

Well, it is another 'Russian bashing' exercise, indeed, as there are far more nationalities who do not pay. In my condo - thais and a few English (Particulatty, New Castle) people who are always are on the non-payers list. However there some legitimate reason why Russians are in majour non-payers. 

As you have noticed, the major % ownership in almost any condo - Russian or CIS nationals (anyone ,who earns roubles)

 

Contemplating about Reasons for non-payment" - well, this is very simple to understand if a few powerful counties (and their co-called "allies", countries-sattelites or simply vassals) one day would turn agains one's country, employing all the possibilities to suffocate the economy,- then it won't take long to understand why.

Since Russian rouble plummeted half - I believe, what we see now is the best case scenario. It could be even worse. I do not really understand why russians still go abroad if it's now twice expensive for them. Shall they totally refrain from coming to Pattaya, the situation could be far worse.

 

I concieve, many people in Russia just lost their ability to pay. Some of them, however, even borrow to pay these useless, burdensome condos that they can't neither sell not rent out, because the intrinsic value of those is close to zero.The bubble is bursted. 

 

What legitimate solutions could be: just do not vote for those in your government, who are inherently dishonest, who had totaly lost sovereignty and now is forced to conduct policies which are against your interests. 

 

To be honest, there is no simple solution. Help them to rent out their apartments. If you got a friend who is looking for an accomondation - let them rent it from the guy who is in trouble so the proceeds could be used to pay maintenance. (the agreement must be established with the owner to appropriate those proceeds)

 

This has nothing in common with the truth and all the following conclusions, therefore, are misleading and false:

 

This resembles a good Fox News Saturday story as well as the following conclusions...

 

This, however, looks like to be a  somewhat reasonable :

 

All in all: the cheapes way to maintain your condo's balance is to make the assets work, that is to rent out (even at a discount) the apartments of underperforming accounts. Prior concent of the owner is required.

 

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Went through the topic once, I noticed ppl are talking about the court of law as a remedy - my opinion - forget about that. First of all the costs of this transaction is extremely high, the process (as everything here) takes forever. Since there is no money to pay - nothing you can do. You can't even sell all those condo - no buyers ) There were this very russians who were buying, at most.

 

It's not another Russian bashing exercise.  If the condo was predominantly Australian for example and were not paying I would announce that it is Australians and wanting to understand why.  I do not care the nationality but yes it is mainly Russian co-owners here so that is just stating a fact.  I just want a solution. 

 

I sympathise with the Russian people that their economy has suffered.  But it does not absolve their responsibilities either.  The repercussions of their non-payments means that it affects the hundreds of other condo owners who could lose their money as well.  It's all about taking responsibility.  I don't care how it is done but I don't want my investment becoming worthless.  So if that means I offend some people then I do not care.  

 

If you claim the BBC news article is false, then please provide proof it is false.  Are you a legal authority?  If it was the case then the Russian government would have prudently responded to state that is was false.  One can logically conclude on various scenarios for reasons for non payment.  Even if the Rouble fell to half the value against the Thai Baht, the yearly maintenance fees would still be affordable in my opinion.  They are not exorbitant.  It is budget choices the Russian owners are making and the condo fees are not one of them.  So the question yet again is why not? I do not accept the Rouble halving as enough.  

 

You just claim it is some fanciful story probably implying that is was concocted by some sort of anti-Russian media spreading propaganda.  That is quite ridiculous if that is what you claim.  If anything it shows a Russian government taking positive steps to stabilise its economy and prevention of money laundering and related criminal activities.  This is a positive news story.  

 

I think I will take it upon myself to initiate contact with Russian and Thai authorities to gather facts.  Let's see what responsibilites they have agreed to adhere to as part of anti-money laundering.  This will be interesting. 

 

Your suggestion of helping out with finding tenants -  I had trouble renting my own condo.  There is a rental glut in Pattaya.  There is already heavy discounting.  But I see merit in your suggestion - offering rentals that is just enough to pay for maintenance fees - with an agreement that all rent collected is given to juristic.  So the tenant would only pay usual rates plus a very cheap rent - that could range from 1500 Baht to 3000 Baht per month rent where my condo is.  Maybe increase that to help start overdue amounts.  

 

For too long juristic condo management have been sitting on their hands doing nothing.  It seems people just shrug their shoulders and say it is all too hard and there is nothing they can do.  So let's all just go down with the sinking ship and accept defeat.  Oh, I will just lose my Millions of Baht and just feel sorry for the Russian people and think that is okay.  I don't think so. 

 

 

 

  

 

 

On 8/15/2017 at 1:55 PM, MaksimMislavsky said:

Being aware of the above about the authorities in their home country, most of non-paying Russian co-owners just won't give a hoot re the threat of any such complaint. Asset seizure is the only potentially productive coercion method I can think of (as a Russian myself), although hardly legally feasible in the case.

Thanks Maksim for your input as a Russian citizen. 

Asset seizure is therefore the only realistically absolute measure - and there is legislation in the Condominium Act to give the courts the authority to seize property, it's just the economic practicality of legal proceedings and the recouping that money.  I would like to see examples of court cases where assets have been seized.  

22 hours ago, Blinky62 said:

He will sell one day or die one or the other , and find his condo is worth nothing . Some one should explain that to him. He can not lease it either unless fees are paid .


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Would be good to read victory stories of condos being force sold after JPM have initiated court actions for unpaid fees. 

14 hours ago, inThailand said:

To deal with unpaid fees you need to refer to the Condo Act and your condo's bylaws. 

 

There are specific clauses in the Condo Act:

1) Interest at 12% to be charged on unpaid balances. 

2) After 6 months of fees unpaid, the condo can be put up for sale. 

 

Its not uncommon to see these clauses in the bylaws:

1) No voting rights after 6 months of outstanding fees.

2) Termination of condo services after 6 months of unpaid fees.

 

Between charging interest and publishing the name and shame report this virtually solved unpaid fees and late payments at our development. The name and shame report published to all owners twice a year shows each condo's fee balance and interest charged. This also helps shine light on whether your mgmt is doing their job regarding unpaid fees.

Yes our financial report doesn't outline specifically which owners are not paying, just the unpaid amounts.  

And this reveals yet another problem, our AGMs I feel are rigged to represent as few owners as possible.  We have had 3 years of asking the juristic office to properly notify all owners of the AGM so that those who cannot attend can at least appoint a proxy.  Their answer is that every owner is sent a letter of the meeting by post.  

 

The problem is that the letters are sent to their condo address!  We have said that in this day and age emails are used so send them an email as well.  And to send a letter to their other domestic or international address.  They keep on obfuscating around this topic and explain that they do not have everyone's email address etc.  I stood up last time and said I wanted them to give me a promise that they would obtain every email address and send emails in advance for subsequent AGMS.  I received a very non-convincing sheepish agreement. Extremely frustrating.  The juristic management just sit there smug and dismissive about it.  Obviously not willing to do any more.  

 

The less owners who can be represented at the AGMs the better as it means less owners are aware of the issues and there are less complaints on the floor of the meeting.  

 

The first AGM is always suspended due to insufficient numbers being present.  So then it is set down for 2 weeks after that so any owners who did make a special trip to come are much less likely to then attend again due to other commitments.  

2 hours ago, tonray said:

Where do they get the money for living expenses if they cannot bring money from overseas ?

Most just come over for holidays so there is no risk of using a legitimate bank account and ATM or bringing over cash for that purpose

2 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

The court certainly can do this, and it has happened. But it's a very long and tedious process.

 

My money would definitely be on the threat of reporting bad debtors to their own government. Should put the fear of whatever passes for God there into them and will cost you just a few Baht for the stamp.

Okay.  Good info to give to our owners committee.  Think I am onto a winner with the government reporting threat!  

10 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Your management should be applying interest to all unpaid debts as the law allows. There is no reason at all not to do this and no reason to delay.

 

I think that it is entirely legal to cease supplying services to co-owners who have outstanding debts, though some people disagree. I think that this would cover any service provided by and billed directly by the condo, but not any service provided by third parties (ie electricity).

 

Assuming that your management is not dishonest (a big assumption) then all debts can be recovered before a unit is sold as the JPM should not sign the debt-free certificate until such debts are paid.

 

If the debts become large enough to warrant the effort then you can take the co-owners to court and the court may order a sale, in which case the building should get paid as described above. What happens to any money left over and where should it be sent? Who cares? I dont. Put it on deposit somewhere in the co-owner's name, send them a letter telling them about it and let them worry about it or not, as they wish. And bill them for sending the letter and wasting your time. You owe these freeloaders nothing.

 

You say that these Russians are worried about their government finding out about their illegal purchases. In that case the solution is obvious: inform them all that any co-owner with unpaid bills of more than x months will result in an official complaint being made by letter to the authorities in their home country. Such a complaint would, of course, have to be accompanied with full details of their ownership status and ID. It's their problem how legal they are, not yours. That should get them moving like a rocket up the backside.

Thank you very much for the great advice.  Some very good points to follow up here.  They are as I believe already adding interest to unpaid debts but not chasing it up unless there is a sale.  But now you have detailed how a court can force a sale.  Plus all the other very valid info,  Thanks again.  

Hello readers, 

If you are a condo owner in Thailand like myself you may also be experiencing the disturbing trend for Russian nationals who have also bought condos and are not paying their yearly maintenance fees.  You may be experiencing other nationalities, but in my case and from what I have read on many forums this is rampant.  

 

In a condo complex with the foreign per capita % ownership overwhelmingly Russian, this poses a very significant problem.  This is not another 'Russian bashing' exercise.  It is merely identifying a particular significant problem relating to a specific demographic.  I therefore have set about trying to understand the reasons behind this and what practical and legal solutions can be achieved to provide a positive outcome for the financial health of the juristic maintenance funds. 

 

Reasons for non-payment:

An interesting discussion with juristic management and subsequent researching online has revealed that in Russia there are severe penalties for Russians sending money overseas unless it is through a Russian bank account.  The penalties range from 50% to 75% of the transferred amount and are a result of the government clamping down on the exodus of money from Russia.  

 

One can draw a conclusion that the initial purchase of the condo by the Russian investor was made by improper and/or illegal means in that the money was sent over in an undisclosed account or other money transfer facility, through a third party, via another country or it was brought over in cash or other valuable tangible form.  Tax evasion, money laundering and citizens just wanting a safe haven from the Russian economy come to mind as reasons why Russian citizens would opt for these methods.  

 

Subsequently any maintenance fees required to be paid will be avoided by Russian owners for fear of revealing to Russian authorities of their foreign assets. So bank transfers to juristic office accounts or to personal Thai accounts etc will be avoided.  There would be other ways I suspect to send the money through but because of the lack of compliance it seems that this too may be deemed too risky.  I am not sure if before the Ruble crash that money transfer regulations out of Russia were lax, but afterwards it has been tightened?  An article published online by the BBC News on 13 Feb 2013 "Russia tightens bank account control" was only 4 years ago and detailed the government's actions.  

 

I do understand as well that the Ruble-Baht exchange rate is not as attractive as it was prior to its crash.  This would impact on owners deciding on paying maintenance fees. 

 

Practical avenues:

 

There are several posters on forums claiming that their juristic office cut off the water to the condominiums in question when there is non-payment.  This is a great solution that hopefully also extends to the owner's tenants when rented out.  The laws to this I am not yet clear on and I am hoping for clarification so that if there is actual legal protection and the right to do this then this would be the first step to resolving the problem.  Unfortunately at this time there are juristic offices that will not do this for fear of being sued.  

 

Legal avenues for non payment of maintenance fees:

The juristic have the legal right to sue for non-payment of maintenance fees and charge a percentage interest fee as well.  From what I have been informed by juristic who sought legal advice, they can only recoup the outstanding fees upon the sale of the property. They are then entitled to being compensated first before the proceeds of the sale are given to the owner.  In a situation like a large condominium complex with hundreds of non payers, this becomes problematic.  Legal fees alone make the process on a case per case basis to not be cost effective; unless years of unpaid maintenance has accumulated.  

 

Russian owners may also be adverse to selling off their condos to avoid money trails and issues as to where do they send the proceeds of the sale to?  So it may be the case they just accept the property as unsalable and hold onto it to until it is worthless, avoiding maintenance fees, whilst possibly accumulating rental money (could be deposited into a non OECD country bank account too!).  There are many stories of arrogant Russian owners stating, "I buy property so why I need pay more?" and stubbornly holding that opinion in the face of documentation that outlines their obligations (although it is likely a ruse to disguise the true reasons - avoiding detection and greed other than outright stupidity).  

 

By this time unfortunately the complex has fallen into such a state of disrepair that it is likely to be earmarked for demolition at some point and other owners have walked away.  Foreign owners cannot own land so a demolition would amount to a zero return.  

 

The problem is that for a Russian citizen, the risk of their foreign asset being discovered is a far greater financial risk due to huge penalties (if they cannot prove legitimate foreign transactions) than paying yearly fees.  Some may from time to time return and pay.  Others lease their properties out on the various holiday letting websites and with local Russian agents to accumulate an income most likely collected by an agent in cash or to a third party bank account.  This is also endemic and is a breach of Thai laws relating to holiday letting of condominiums.  

 

Both Thailand and Russia are part of the Global Forum on the Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes. Russia has also put a stop to bank accounts that previously could be opened under anonymous names.  So there is a real fear that Russian agencies could request the exchange of information relating to Russian citizens owning properties.  I am not sure how far the extent is for the exchange of information between these two countries as it may only be restricted to banks and other financial institutions.  

 

If however there was a bilateral agreement between these two countries then I pose the following:  If there is an agreement that extends to land ownership records (Chanote - title deeds and company registration records) then juristic could use this legal and bilateral exchange legislation to warn such Russian owners that non payment of maintenance fees by international transfers arouses the suspicion of the Thai government who are actively working to address money laundering and other illegal activities by foreigners in the Kingdom of Thailand.  Therefore non-payments raise a question mark as to why they are not paying which would constitute a cause to query the legitimacy of foreign ownership.  In turn this means that steps would then be initiated to exchange information between the Thai and Russian authorities to ensure that foreign ownership is legitimate.  

 

Of course the proper procedure for purchasing property as a foreign investor is via a bank transfer in order to obtain the FET form (or credit slip) with information to prove that the funds came from another country.  But there may be ways around this.  

 

In the event that it reveals the investor purchased the condominium through illegal, fraudulent means there would be grounds to seize the asset as proceed of crime (if there is a bilateral agreement and legislation in place for the admissibility of foreign evidence).  The Thai government could then sell off the property.  The proceeds of the sale would pay for the maintenance fees.  It would be great of course if the properties forfeited would become a cash pool for all owners.  But of course that would not be the case.  

 

So many condominiums end up totally run down because of a lack of maintenance.  And of course there are other vested interests in this process as well as a way to recycle the land into another condo complex, generate jobs, foreign investors, usual kickbacks, skimming etc and the process repeats

 

But with a strong owner committee and a pro active ethical management (or at least semi ethical!) and with this type of avenue I am hoping that this could be a real solution to threaten non paying owners who put at risk the investments of every other condo owner.  

 

It may also be a solution for distressed owners who have neighbouring condos which are constantly holiday let with usual rowdy, noisy, rude, disrespectful and destructive tourists, often also over-packed into a small unit.  Firstly threaten non-compliance of Thai laws relating to rentals as well as exchange of information to the authorities.  

 

I would appreciate any opinions on any experts or members with experience or knowledge in this area.  Thanks.  

 

Thanks Jack, 

Lucky Luck Motorcycle Shop was my first port of call before the Embassy and they are the one's who told me that they could not help me because of too many tourist visas and days in Thailand.  They said I had to to go to the Embassy in person. Thai Embassy lady wanted bank statements before she would take my application which I did same day.  They accepted printouts - no need for certified copies etc. 

Thanks for the options info. 

 

Embassy in Phnom Penh by the way pulled me up on the proof of ongoing travel out of the country after TV expires (as per the application form) but I just outlined the fact that I was not sure if I would get a tourist visa granted and therefore had not yet booked a ticket to fly out of Thailand and therefore waste money on a ticket that I may not be able to use.  She accepted that explanation - common sense prevailed there.  

 

For future issues regarding the 'throwaway ticket', I am assuming this means a ticket which I can get refunded on after I book?  Would I need to pay up front and then seek a refund from the airline afterwards so I could amend my future itinerary?  And do they grant full refunds?  

 

I need the flexibility to amend my future arrangements and not be locked into travel dates and destinations as well so this option of having a ticket that will not cost me anything upon cancelling would potentially solve any application issues.  If I go back to Oz in near future I the METV seems to be a good option.  

 

Pattaya have day trips to the Cambodian border for visa runs and I believe this is for METVs as well which can be renewed at the border - leave at 6am and back at 2pm scenario.  

On 11/1/2016 at 7:33 PM, JackThompson said:

 

Note on Phnom Penh - in general with a good agent like the one in "Lucky, Lucky Motorcycle Shop," a bank-book with proof of $1000 USD should allow you to obtain up to 3 visas from that consulate per passport.  Given your recent experience, you may want to call first, and see if anything there has changed before trying that location again.

 

As others have noted, both consulates in Laos are easier, but only up to 3 or 4 in one passport between both.  When you get a new passport, the count starts over from zero at the consulates, so be prepared to get a new passport after a set of SETVs.  

 

For long stayers on SETVs, options include: 1+ - Hong Kong, 2 - HCMC, 2 - Penang, 3 - Cambodia, 2 - Vientiene, 2 - Savanahket, 1+ Yangoon.  Some require proof of residence or hotel bookings and/or air-fare (a throwaway ticket). So 3 years worth SETVs per passport are possible, more or less. 

 

As other suggested, if traveling home, and you can qualify for an METV, that will give you about 9 months in-country, before starting this sequence, or returning for another METV (depending on your consulate's policy on back-to-back issuance - every consulate makes up its own special rules and/or exceptions to them).

 

Thanks Saradoc and others for posting. 

Unfortunately I don't qualify for a disability pension back in Australia because my investment incomes exceed the threshold (some may say that's a good thing!). 

Saying that I am classified as Total Permanent Disability which I have all paperwork plus honourable discharge.

I can produce proof of incomes and bank statements no dramas. 

Cannot see how I am doing anything illegal either 'living' here. That is an interpretation of words when immigration would most likely state I am 'visiting' here over the duration of my visa. I could state the same as it is true until I can be allowed to stay longer. 

It may be worth my while writing to the embassies for the possibility of non-o visa seeing I have circumstances that may qualify for special consideration? 

I am in a huge dilemna.  I am currently living in Thailand, own my own condo near Pattaya, but I am 47 years old medically retired which means I do not yet qualify for the retirement visa.  

I have been staying currently on back to back tourist visas - first one issued in Australia, then a trip to Thai embassy in Vientiane in Laos followed by a recent trip to Cambodian Thai embassy in Phnom Penh.  

I got the biggest shock when in Cambodia as firstly the visa shop I went to said I had too many tourist visas in the year and I had to go to the embassy in person.  

The lady there stated I had stayed too many days in a year in Thailand - more than 270 days.  I had a tourist visa from Dec 2015 to Feb 2016 then returned to Australia, followed by a 60 day visa with 30 day extension from April to July 2016, followed by the Laos trip visa which was another 60 day visa with 30 day extension.  

I am not sure if it is within a calendar year that this 270 day rule applies or is it 270 days in a year between visas issued?  

I had to sweat it out in Phnom Penh for 5 days for them to make a decision.  They asked for copies of all my bank accounts which I provided (thankfully an internet cafe not far away) - obviously to make sure I am able to support myself in Thailand and not work.  

So now I am  unsure of what to do?  Will I get knocked back next time if I apply for another tourist visa?  I heard that the embassy in Phnom Penh is renowned for being one of the strictest in the SEA region.  Are there other embassies that are less strict?  Is the 270 day an actual rule or just a guide to look out for suspicious repeat tourist visa holders?  

I have looked at the ED visa option but it seems from what I have read online that attendance is a minimum of 8 hours a week Thai lessons and that you need to attend 4 days a week minimum as well.  This would not suit me and seems very restrictive - especially as the enrollments are for 6 to 12 months - 6, 12 month ED visas.  

I have read that there are other courses that fall within the ED visa category.  I read about self defense courses in Chiang Mai that are through an ED visa.  

I know that there is the Elite visa option - 500,000 Baht for a 5 year visa.  This is very expensive.  This would be the very last option for me if all else failed.  

Also has the volunteer visa been scrapped?  Or are there organisations that you can work for in Pattaya for 1 -2 days a week? 

Anyone have any suggestions about options as well as advice on tourist visas?  

Thanks.