sattahip

I have seen twice over the past few days a super looking yellow coach, brand new I think marked Pattaya-Savannaboomi at its stating point at the junction of Soi Chaiyapruek and Jomtien beach Road.

This is just round the corner from Yorkies and the same place as the blue/orange Jomtien/Bangkok buses depart from.

A friend told me they have 4 times a day schedule but no other details,

Next time I see one I'll stop and enquire then post.

I am sorry to be brutally frank but most of the replies above are of no real value.

You can establish the quality of condo management ;

1. Ask to see the most recent audited accounts of the condominium juristic person. That is the association in Thai law which owns the structure. These accounts should be audited, though with accounting standards such as they are in Thailand, this is no absolute guarantee of accuracy. In any building catering well to expatriate owners there will be an English language copy. Use your common sense to review income and outgo, accumulated net worth, presence of reserve funds etc. Ask to see a list detailing maintenance arrears. Be careful if the developer is the major creditor or arrears are substantial/chronic.

2. Ask for a copy of the minutes of the most recent Annual General Meeting. As with the accounts, any well managed building will have these in English translation. Review this to see if key issues like financial viability, management quality, maintenance planning and the like are discussed. See also how election of board is conducted, if it is!. Many condominiums here are autocratically run by the developers as a cash cow with no real ownership input/control.

3. Ask for a copy of the insurance policy covering the building. This will likely be in Thai but check with your lawyer what is covered,who is the beneficiary, for how much and with whom. Often insurance is completely inadequate, covers only fire and is with a company even for major buildings no-one has ever heard of. Strangely such companies often pay brokerage of some substance to the "manager" which should not be done for obvious reasons re independent assessment. Thailand has many reputable brokers in Bangkok who can arrange the right policy with the financially capable insurers plus advise on coverage amount which will increase over time to cover replacement costs. Check there is 3rd party insurance also though this will be rare. Good insurance companies will also offer staff fire training.

4 See a utility bill for a condo and check the unit costs of electricity and water against those an independent householder would pay. These items should not be a "profit centre" for management.

5. Ask for a copy of the association,s land deed which of course should be in its name (e.g. "name of condo" Juristic Association). In many cases the association will own only the footprint of the building and you can have a fun park or shophouses next year on what you thought were your clubhouse grounds or gardens. This is common. One building mentioned above as an exemplar has allocated only 2.5 rai(about an acre) for its new 33 storey twin tower. Now tell me that makes sense!

6. Walk down the fire stairs as you leave. A sign of good management is that these will be completely clear, properly emergency lit etc. Check the maintenance plate in the elevators. Is the manufacturer the maintaining coy? Shoddy lift maintenance is a time bomb. Again commonsense viewing will give you an idea of overall tidiness and housekeeping quality.

All this is a bit long but based on experience. I am the Treasurer of my condominium which is, I believe, capably run by the owners. We employ our own manager and security and cleaning staff and have had most of them with us since opening 12 years ago.

We are about, with a consulting engineers assistance, to commence a full refurbishment programme which will run to millions of baht. We can face this because our owners take a real interest in the building (75%+ attended the last two AGMs) and are willing to fund transparent running and extraordinary expenses.

So any questions or brickbats- I'm ready.

I understand perfectly where you are coming from. People that know and own units in every block in Jomtien say that the the best run condo anywhere in town is without doubt Ocean Marina. Most of the owners are absantee high ranking and wealthy folks from Bangkok.

Go see it for yourself and ask the questions maybe you will be surprised, I was.

The downside is that units there are not cheap and do not very often come on the market.

I'll take your word for it, Rimmer' but I am still sceptical. For Portofino, who will own there pool, beachfront and gardens. Ocean Insurance?

Pak Chong is an amphur(district) of Nakorn Ratchasima province. Pak Chong is on the Mittrapab Highway. So from Pattaya, take the Motorway towards Bangkok, exit the Motorway at the Ring Road exit south of bangkok. This is well marked as the exit to Bang Na and Bang Pa In. You take the Bang Pa In directions, follow the ringroad until the exit for Nakorn Ratchasima which will take you to the Mittrapabb Highway (N02). This passes though Pak Chong which is 2/30 kms before NK city.

Invest in a map which will make all this easier. All the above roads are 4 lanes or more and outside peak hours very fast. Journey thime 3-3 1/2 hours.

I am sorry to be brutally frank but most of the replies above are of no real value.

You can establish the quality of condo management ;

1. Ask to see the most recent audited accounts of the condominium juristic person. That is the association in Thai law which owns the structure. These accounts should be audited, though with accounting standards such as they are in Thailand, this is no absolute guarantee of accuracy. In any building catering well to expatriate owners there will be an English language copy. Use your common sense to review income and outgo, accumulated net worth, presence of reserve funds etc. Ask to see a list detailing maintenance arrears. Be careful if the developer is the major creditor or arrears are substantial/chronic.

2. Ask for a copy of the minutes of the most recent Annual General Meeting. As with the accounts, any well managed building will have these in English translation. Review this to see if key issues like financial viability, management quality, maintenance planning and the like are discussed. See also how election of board is conducted, if it is!. Many condominiums here are autocratically run by the developers as a cash cow with no real ownership input/control.

3. Ask for a copy of the insurance policy covering the building. This will likely be in Thai but check with your lawyer what is covered,who is the beneficiary, for how much and with whom. Often insurance is completely inadequate, covers only fire and is with a company even for major buildings no-one has ever heard of. Strangely such companies often pay brokerage of some substance to the "manager" which should not be done for obvious reasons re independent assessment. Thailand has many reputable brokers in Bangkok who can arrange the right policy with the financially capable insurers plus advise on coverage amount which will increase over time to cover replacement costs. Check there is 3rd party insurance also though this will be rare. Good insurance companies will also offer staff fire training.

4 See a utility bill for a condo and check the unit costs of electricity and water against those an independent householder would pay. These items should not be a "profit centre" for management.

5. Ask for a copy of the association,s land deed which of course should be in its name (e.g. "name of condo" Juristic Association). In many cases the association will own only the footprint of the building and you can have a fun park or shophouses next year on what you thought were your clubhouse grounds or gardens. This is common. One building mentioned above as an exemplar has allocated only 2.5 rai(about an acre) for its new 33 storey twin tower. Now tell me that makes sense!

6. Walk down the fire stairs as you leave. A sign of good management is that these will be completely clear, properly emergency lit etc. Check the maintenance plate in the elevators. Is the manufacturer the maintaining coy? Shoddy lift maintenance is a time bomb. Again commonsense viewing will give you an idea of overall tidiness and housekeeping quality.

All this is a bit long but based on experience. I am the Treasurer of my condominium which is, I believe, capably run by the owners. We employ our own manager and security and cleaning staff and have had most of them with us since opening 12 years ago.

We are about, with a consulting engineers assistance, to commence a full refurbishment programme which will run to millions of baht. We can face this because our owners take a real interest in the building (75%+ attended the last two AGMs) and are willing to fund transparent running and extraordinary expenses.

So any questions or brickbats- I'm ready.

Don't you all think this is thread has gone awry.

First the real driver of Pattaya is the phenomenal growth of industry here, both manufacturing and tourist. Please also note that the tourists that count aren't European at all but Asian and you wont see them in Soi 8 or the like or at Jomtien beach. They are out shopping up a storm and the local economy with it.

Pattaya is now a city of over 1million and growing fast in my estimation. I guess 5000 a year more or less of European residents hardly effects anything but the very top end, which is, in the scale of things, minute.

The long term prospects for the Eastern Seaboard are very, very good.

As for the company ownership brouhaha, we all know it will pass and besides there are ways around it if you choose such as a lease, a company with all Thai shareholders where the alien holds blank signed share transfers and so on.

Calm down and realise that the market has levelled off a bit, that there is a lot of ill-built crap on the market which will never move, good times or bad, but otherwise this is a very attractive market for a long term buyer of good property.

I hate to seem jaded but let's be realistic. There will be winners here. They will be the "authorities" who will oversee/enforce any settlement for a share of the money, likely much more than half.

Dear BKK90210

If you want seafront land in an established estate at Bang Saray have you looked at Sunset Village. There is absolute seafront land there for B78,000 per TW. Google" "Sunset Beach estate" thailand"

BKK 90210.

As to why land prices in NaJomtien, Ban Amphur and to a lesser degree Bang Saray are increasing, there are a number of factors in my view.

First Pattaya and Naklua are tired and overcrowded, with lack of zoning a real threat to any property.

Jomtien proper is also on that track with shitty View Talay/Stalin developments overshadowing nicer properties and all those old shophouses waiting there begging to be converted to brothels, karaokes etc.

NaJomtien and south have not been spoiled before the land price has risen to preclude most shit developments.

Also Highway 7 is to be extended past the back of Pattaya to join Highway 3 (Sukhumvit) near Bang Saray. That has been reaffirmed at cabinet level last year. So surprise, surprise a large number of names recognizable from the political sector have been accumulating land down here.

It would also be most unwise to bet against a casino in this area given the alleged "ownership" of the biggest hotel in the area.

Add to all of that, that Bangkok upmarket Thais are on a buzz about Ban Amphur and Bang Saray particularly being only an hour and a half from home as the motorway improves and clean of the Pattaya "odour."

Next there are only 3 above swamp level coastal patches between Leam Chabang and the Navy base- Naklua, Pratumnak Hill and Ban Amphur. The climatic difference brought about by only 20/40 metres above sea level is substantial.

All this has led to developments such as Ban Talay and Royal Maritime selling land at above Baht45,000 per TW and new apartment tower condos selling like hot cakes at B90,000 plus psm at Sails and Ocean Portofino.

Will the price increases slow or prices retreat-surely. But it would be wise to look back to what happened during the 1997 crash. Pattaya district land sales virtually stopped, prices seem to soften only a little when nationally they plunged, and Pattaya recovered within 2/3 years and hasn't looked back since. Do remember that over the hills behind Pattaya in a huge industrial complex churning out over 1,000,000 new cars a year and unending streams af electronics, machinery and so on. Don't think the 2 Tescos, 2 Big C' and all the rest of the infrastructure is primarily here to serve the farang market, it is driven by the buoyant employment and wealth generated at places like Amata City.

As to vacancies in current estates, I guess the old rule applies "Shit doesn't sell at any price".

Well so much for my daily rant. I must get a life!

For Mobi d'Ark,

I have just seen the architect today and he suggests about Baht18,000 per sq mtr for the houses, B12,000 for maid';s qtrs and garage and B10,000 for the pool. I have seen the Institute of Valuers figures and think them low for Pattaya. Cheers

Thanks to all who have spent so much time making this such a great thread.

I am about to build and many of my questions/concerns have been raised here.

First as to land, I bought with a mate 2 blocks in the VIP Condominium in Ban Amphur. VIP's land runs from the Sukhumvit to the sea. The blocks are 130 TW/520 sq mtr each. The great thing is that they both will have town water, power and telephone but also that they are in the condo on its great access road plus owners enjoy full access to the beach, pool, gym, tennis courts etc. This costs 10 baht a tarang wah while unbuilt and 50 baht a TW per year when house is built. Only caveat is that house cannot be over 2 floors which is no problem for me.

The key considerations in choosing this land were direct beach access, sea views, location between gardens of upmarket condo, Sunset Heights, and VIP's own gardens. Transport is also good as the 1631 bus service which runs Sattahip/Chonburi now has 25+ busses running day and night and songteaws, White, run Sattahip/Naklua 24hours. This is important as visitors and staff have a cheap way to get to you easily.

The area around is quiet as land here is expensive and Sunset Heights as mentioned above and neighbouring estates now being markets are top of the market. Silver heritage 2 doors away is offering houses from 30 to 75 million!!

I am now working with an architect on a concept for the house. Figures mentioned above are way out of my league. I am thinking of a low-rise compond in Thai/Bali style around a modest pool. I like atrium style buildings. One structure will be my aerie with a master suite, entertaing areas next to the pool, another will be freestanding accommodation for my driver and his wife and a guest suite. A service block with kitchen, maid's quarters etc will intervene. Total about 180/200 sq mts.

I am hoping to get away with all this for Baht3.5 million or so. Am I crazy?

I would add I already own a place here which I will sell in due course and don't have to worry about furnishings/ appliances etc.

I would love to have comments and in particular any recommendations for contractors.

Again a great thread and thanks to all.