joninisaan

Hello,

   I was wondering if someone could help me out. I have a work permit that expires March 31, 2019. I quit my last teaching job last term and was told to just hold onto my work permit (which doesn’t sound right but hey, this is Thailand). I will be teaching at another school this coming term. Could anyone advise me what I have to do about my work permit?

thanks in advance

11 hours ago, SlyAnimal said:

 

Yeah I've only ever had students try to test me by refusing to do their lines once, which was the time I mentioned in my previous post.  It was actually a group of 3 students, who had each received lines for various infractions (Their class was the naughtiest class I've ever taught, 7x ladyboys, as well as the regular clowns, who would all feed off each other's energy).  Their class was a lot naughtier than others and so I punished them regularly, as did all of the their other western teachers & Thai teachers, so the effects wore off and they lost their fear.

Punishing students too frequently is a problem, they lose their fear of it.  Which is what I feel was the downfall of corporal punishment, and am actually a firm believer that corporal punishment should be legal, but used extremely sparingly (Ideally not at all).  As if a student is given the same punishment regularly, they lose their fear of it, but there needs to always be something else, something scarier that can be used to enforce the other punishments to prevent disobedience.

Much like, a mild mannered teacher who rarely raises his voice, is extremely scary when he does, while a teacher that yells til they're red in the face each day isn't taken seriously anymore, as the teacher who yells has already played their hand, you've seen everything they've got and become used to it.

 

I'm not a good enough teacher to be so mild mannered, I need to raise my voice to single out students, and regularly yell at the class too if they get too noisy.  Although I try to make it clear to them that I'm not angry, by still remaining very calm, as I want to retain "being angry" as the ace up my sleeve.

Now I try to only occasionally give students lines for infractions within class, and only with repeated warnings first if I do, as I do feel it's really important that the students feel they deserve their punishments, and that they fear being punished.

Although in general I take the perspective that if the class is distracted, or even if individuals are distracted, then that's on me.  It isn't really the student's fault that they are talking, as if my lesson was more interesting, or at a level that they could better understand, then they'd be more engaged by it.

As a throwback to what we all likely learnt in our TESOL courses etc, it's all just things like:

- Making eye contact with students, especially the trouble makers, so that they know I'm watching them

- Asking questions to different areas of the classroom, especially the trouble makers, to ensure that everyone thinks they might be next

- Getting the students to all read/speak together, and repeating the same words until they are ALL doing it

 

These are ways to maintaining the focus of the students, but to prevent them drifting off in the first place the lesson also needs to be:

 

- Understandable - If the content is too difficult, or if your speed is too difficult to understand (accent/speed), or if you're trying to teach too much in a single lesson, then the students will switch off, can't be interested in something you don't understand.  Once they're off, it's hard to get them to switch back on, so it's better to start with something easy than to start with something difficult.

- Interesting - The content should be something that the students can relate to, so use Thailand examples rather than Western examples.  Western examples can work well with a group that's already motivated, but for high school kids....

- Engaging - Your personal charm and delivery of the lesson can make it engaging.  Smile, laugh, make jokes (That the students can understand), use body language and compel the students to engage with you.

Hope that doesn't sound too cheesy.  It's all easy stuff, and just common sense, although putting them all together can be like putting together a jigsaw puzzle while blindfolded at times, particularly as they are all interlinked.  So if you do poorly in one aspect, particularly from the second set of 3, then all of the others will become significantly more difficult.

Anyway, hope that didn't sound too much like telling you that water is wet lol.

Thanks for the added points. I already had to make some boys who were playing around in class. I let the class go lunch early about 10 minutes before lunch (as I was hungry already) but the boys stayed back and wrote just 10 lines (M 1 and time was an essence) but they wrote it like their life depended on it and I told them to write 50 more and turn in by this week. If they don't, then Ill up the sentences next week 100 and still keep them back from the rest of the class to write a minimum from the 100 they have to turn in in 1 week. Of course for the class to go lunch early by 10 minutes is if the class is well behaved. Also, JUST in case, I push the time back by 10 minutes to play with  so that I don't give the parents of the students staying back and writing sentences something to complain about that I'm keeping the students away from lunch. 

Ill see how these boys behave now in class as to why I kept the numbers small but will definitely add if they start acting up in class again.

Thanks again for your post that gave me some great ideas

Truly appreciate it

16 hours ago, White Tiger said:

You could try giving them lines to write out.

 

You might also find that the other students are more than happy to give a troublemaker a clip round the back of the head. If a boy is playing up suggest to one of his classmates sitting nearby that he "dob dob" the naughty student and make a hand gesture to indicate a gentle clip round the ear. More likely than not the boys will be delighted to get permission from the teacher to give another boy a clip round the ear. The student who gets clipped round the back of the head won't be happy at this and will think twice before misbehaving again. You're not hitting any students so you're not breaking any laws; and the students are enforcing their own discipline. This deals with the bad behaviour quickly and in a way that looks like fun to most of the class - naturally the student who gets hit by his classmates won't like it.

Thanks for the suggestion of clip round the ear. Just hope I'm not a bit angry at the time asking another student to give it and gesture to give not just a clip but a hard wack round the ear.

On 6/29/2018 at 8:30 PM, SlyAnimal said:

Generally I go over the classroom rules at the start of the term, and explain the punishments at the same time.  I find that provided the students know ahead of time what the punishment will be, they will accept the punishment without complaint, and after 1 student in the class has been punished the others will realize that I was being serious.

I only have a pretty narrow spectrum of what I punish though, as I teach in the countryside so it's all about taking small steps.

Cellphone use in class (Unless it's a dictionary) - I'll confiscate their phone for a week.  I don't particularly like looking after phones though, so for the first student to get caught I'll make a song and dance about taking it for a week, then at the end of class will do a coin flip with the student, with heads (the king) returning their phone to them (And I deliberately try to manipulate the toss to ensure I lose).  I also sometimes give the students the choice of 700 lines (100 per day) to get their phone back straight away (For which they are very grateful, since they'd be social outcasts if they couldn't play RoV lol).

Copying homework - For copying homework I give all students involved 500 lines (So both the student copying, and the student who's book they borrowed).

 

Cheating/"Helping" - For students that try to cheat on tests, or who "help" their friends during speaking tests (i.e. Students not being tested saying the answer to a question, just as they do during regular questions in class) I advise the students that they'll receive a minimum of 500 lines, and will also receive 0 on their test as well.  The 0s I usually relent on, and allow a retest or similar after making them sweat for a bit, but do it on a case by case basis.

 

Skipping class - My students need to attend 80%+ of their classes.  If they're excused I don't factor that in at all, but otherwise will fail them if they don't attend at least 80% of my classes.  I usually try to calculate this well before I need to submit their grades, so that I can assign them special homework early.  I give them 500 lines for each day that they were absent, if they can complete their lines before x date (usually a date prior to when I need to submit my grades), then I will give them a 50% "discount" on their lines, and the grade that they deserved (rather than 0 or ม.ส. ).  I will also give them a second date, and if they complete their lines before then they can still have the 50% discount (But because their grade will have already been submitted as a fail, I can only change their grade back to a 1).  I also include an attendance section when calculating their grade, usually around 20%, from which I make deductions every time they are late or absent without a valid reason.

 

Failing tests - I usually don't punish students for poor performances in class.  However on tests that are a large contributor to a student's grade, I will give them the opportunity (Which is often compulsory) to test again with a similar test at lunch time.  When I do so, I will usually cap the maximum score of the re-test at 50% (And make students continue to test at lunch time each week until they can achieve 50%). 

Other - I also occasionally give lines to students that do something weird that I feel is inappropriate or rude e.g. I gave 3 girls 200 lines each because they took 20+ minutes in the toilet.

 

Incomplete lines - Students that are given special homework (lines), and don't complete them within 1 week, have the amount doubled.  When I first started doing this, some students mustn't have realized, and so had 200 lines (I wasn't as harsh then) turn into about 4000+ by the end of the term.  They didn't think it was funny anymore when I failed them and refused to change their grade until their work was completed.

But generally anything within the classroom itself I see as just general classroom management and so don't punish students for anything in class, aside from raising my voice or putting people on the spot via a question or similar.  Even when I do raise my voice etc, my goal is to keep the "approval" of the class, so only do so with fair warning (e.g. most of the class know when I'm about to yell, and enjoy seeing the shock/surprise on their friend's face when they get blasted) as I want to stop disruptive behaviour but not scare them too much.

Anywho, that's how I do things, I think that it works well but everyone has their own way of doing things, hope it's of some help.  I teach in the countryside, and it's 8 years since I first started at the school, so might have a bit more free reign than what some other teachers would e.g. I've heard some schools don't let you fail students, or even yell at students.  With limited experience elsewhere I don't know how flexible other school policies are, but I can definitely do both while still maintaining very positive reviews from the school/students, I just have to do it in the right way.

Edit:  Oh and just in hindsight, I should mention.  I do definitely feel that making it clear to students what the consequences of their actions are, BEFORE they break the rules, is really important.  I use what I feel are excessively harsh punishments for what are relatively minor infractions, this gives me a lot of leeway if I want to reduce a punishment.

Thanks for your input on punishments given per say writing lines. My question would have been what to do if a student never finishes their lines or just simply blows them off and not do them but I see how you link the not doing or finishing lines with grades, etc. Another question would be for offenses not listed like being a disturbance in class, etc. Would you threaten to drop their overall grade?

On 6/24/2018 at 3:44 AM, ozmeldo said:

It's not about public vs private schools. The best schools, the most in demand outside IB, International (real ones) are 2-3 bilinguals ate PUBLIC schools + then a tiny few Christian, a few more Catholic schools then there are public's or what we might term public/private's eg Pathumwan Demonstration. These are the elite secondary schools. 

 

Who wants to go to a private university in Thailand? No decent student.

 

The top ten secondary schools are essentially all or nearly all public.

 

When kids take a call in class, I point them outside. Video games, one warning, I'll take their phone for 24 hours. Loud talking, I try to mitigate. Sleeping, sometimes I take them, sometimes not. Depends, I know many are up late studying and up early to get to school.

 

Ill pull them into the activity and disallow other work to be done in class.

 

Connecting personally with students goes a long way. If they respect you, that might not get you to the goal line, but it will take you far.

         Thanks for ideas that you use. I do take away their phones but give them back when class is over as my Thai wife who is also a teacher said that now some Thai teachers are starting to be discouraged from taking students phones as some parents complain that its considered stealing even though teachers give the phone back. May not be a case for me but I don't want to take chances.

         Back in my home town Hawaii where I was working in a high school, I would work with the worst students in school (drug users, in and out of detention homes, behavior disorders, etc) but I NEVER had problems with any student as I would give them some respect in which they would give me respect back by not giving me a hard time and being honest with me. But here, I here from a lot of different foreign teachers that here in Thailand, if you "give them an inch, they'll take a mile". 

On 6/24/2018 at 4:06 AM, jenny2017 said:

I've seen Thai teachers doing worse things. OP, so more upset you'll get, so more troubles you'll have.

 

  Show them that you're the boss in the classroom and keep your lessons interesting. If they talk/listen to music, etc.. while you are in class, just stop and look at them. There's always a sort of a "leading student" in each class who'll help you to calm them down.

 

  A good trick is to tell them that you'll take them to the principles office if they continue to behave badly. I never did it, but it helped many times. At least for some minutes...

 

   

Thanks for the advice. Ill use especially the "stop and look at them" one. I like that one because the misbehaving student will probably not sure what you're really thinking or going to do which makes it work.

18 hours ago, otherstuff1957 said:

When I first started teaching in Thailand, almost 15 years ago, corporal punishment was common and almost all of the Thai teachers carried a bamboo "pointer" to class.  Things have changed and I have not seen an example of corporal punishment in over 10 years.

 

IMHO using physical punishment is not effective.  It teaches the kids that they must obey when there is a stick pointed at them.  They, of course, immediately understand that the opposite is also true....  no stick means that they don't have to obey!  Hitting kids to make them behave is not only counter-productive, it also teaches them that good behavior is something that is imposed upon them from outside, rather than something that they do of their own accord.

 

Unfortunately, Thai teachers have, by and large, replaced corporal punishment to nothing at all!  Kids who misbehave usually get nothing more than a long lecture that they can just tune out until it is over.

 

Disciplining students, especially students who are old enough to realize that they live in "the land of no consequences" (as I sometimes consider Thailand to be) is a difficult and lengthy process.  Given large class sizes and the fact that many Thai teachers will unconsciously or purposely undermine your efforts, it is an almost impossible task.

 

I don't have any answers for those of you in the Government School trenches,  I gave up and moved to a private school where the students understand and speak English and the class sizes are usually less than 20 students.  Even there, discipline can be a challenge, but being consistent and firm and having a good relationship with the Thai teachers does help a lot.

The points you made are dead on correct! I didn't realized too that private schools are different in terms of classroom structure, etc. I think Ill be leaning towards changing to a private school if possible to my next school to teach at. Thanks for your response to my OP.

18 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

Change schools - problem solved.

 

I will be moving to the city where my wife is a teacher at the end of this term but I have accepted the fact that the problem on how to punish students or how difficult all teachers have it disciplining students here in Thailand no matter what school I change to.

20 hours ago, scorecard said:

I do that at the start of every course and very quickly I get the looks on faces 'the monster has arrived'. I don't care I still state the rules.

 

A different slant. Over the years I'd had a few problem students eventually come to me and say, I used to get angry with you for telling me to be quiet and listen and (in some cases) make me sit away from my friends or sit at the front. Now I ned to thank you because after you really push I'm now getting better grades.

 

My Dad was a principal (director) at several schools in Hawaii about 60 years ago when they would use the big wooden paddle. After my Dad retired, there was an incident with a BIG Samoan guy who came up to my Dad and asked my Dad if he was a principal at ............. high school which my Dad said "yes" and asked who are you and braced himself as the BIG Samoan guy looked like he wanted to rip my dads head off. After a few seconds, a big smile grew on the Samoan guys face and he offered his hand to my Dad saying "I'd like to thank you for punishing me with the paddle back in ............high school as those punishments set me straight". I was about 7 years old at that time I can clearly remember every second of that incident and thinking to myself at first that my Dads going to get murdered right in front of me.

20 hours ago, stubuzz said:

If you haven't written your own classroom management plan-aka (discipline management plan) and discussed it with the students, ask the school for theirs. If they don't know what it is, or don't have one then you know things will never change.

I have a classroom management plan I drew up myself but was just looking at alternatives for when certain students break rules repeatedly and my punishments are of little concern to the student and don't want to use corporal punishment.

I know things will never change here in Thailand as to why I was looking for alternative punishments other foreign teachers use.

Just now, Krataiboy said:

Anyone unaware that corporal punishment is unlawful in Thai schools has no job teaching.

Yes, I agree with you if you were referring to who told akirasan he was allowed to hit students. But if you're referring to akirasan, he said that he was told he was allowed to hit students but didn't and 

didn't want to hit students.

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Bangkok. I won't name the specific school.

 

I've taught at 5 uni's in Bkk, the only uni where I've never had some behaviour problems is NIDA.

 

Even the 2 'most prestigious', I've had some behavior problems or been aware of other professors having student behavior problems.

 

One of the worst was a bigger and strong hi-so boy 19 yrs old who beat up a 19 yr old girl in the class room during the morning coffee break and broke her arm when he smashed a student chair (with arm table) over her. He was saying, not quietly, that he wanted to squeeze her tits and she responded with some foul words. (The school then discovered the same boy has been involved in reported brawls several times and had pulled a hand gun during a brawl at a disco at RCA. Yes he was underage to enter but he always had a bodyguard who 'smoothed' things as needed.)

 

His father was asked to come in, he came and when asked by the director to order his son to behave himself responded with; 'no because I want my son to have fun at uni'. Father is a well known XXX shirt politician.

 

At the other 'most prestigious' we started most semesters with a few European exchange students, some lasted the full semester, some pulled out and went home after 3 or 4 classes.

 

Why? Shock at the class room behaviors of many students, and disappointed that so much time was wasted because the professor had to stop again and again and tell the students (mostly girls) to stop talking and listen, plus the lack of respect and arrogance, eg: in one lesson I stopped and told a small group of girls, again, to stop talking, the ring leader responded with 'no, your not my father, and maybe better if you stopped talking and let us chat'. 

 

 

From what I read from your past experience, I have it good. And to think Thailand is scratching their head wondering why Thailands education level rank so low in the world and the ASEAN community.

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

I was only referring to a Prathom school grades 5 and 6. I copied them from the other teachers, I was the only western teacher in the school. My apologies for missing out that you were actually referring to a Mattayom school.

When I worked in a Mattayom school grades 9 and 10, I reported students who were continually naughty to the Head of the English Department.

No problem. Thanks for your follow up on the Mattayom grades. Reporting continued naughty students is a good option too. The continued naughty students are usually well known for their behavior but usually the Head of the English Departments hands are tied about the students due to our school being in the countryside thus having a harder time keeping and getting students into our IEP program which the tuition pays my paycheck thus unless the student is a severe case which is a danger to themselves or others which I haven't encountered in my class yet, nothing will be done with the continued naughty students.

Just now, scorecard said:

 

Depends on the level, I have over about 8 years put 3 bachelor students out of the class, 2 girls, 1 boy.

 

The boy because other students quietly alerted me that he was injecting drugs, and I caught him in the act.

 

One girl because she was determined to disrupt the lessons, continuously talking loudly on her smartphone which must be turned off during lessons. Two Thai professors had previously also removed her from the room. I told her to pack her bag which would take less the 1 minute, she deliberately pulled everything out of her bag and dropped her stuff all over the floor, very slowly one by one picking up er things and at the same time say, in Thai that the professor is crazy. I told her to stand up and go and asked 3 other girls to pack her things.

 

Second girl a loudmouth tomboy who regularly intimidated girls in the class, one day she was quite aggressively trying to hold the head and face of an european exchange girl, and trying to forceable mouth kiss the exchange student. Many of the students yelled at her and one German boy grabbed her and forcibly dragged her to the other side of the room.

 

On all 3 occasions I called the program coordinators to come quickly (located 1 floor down) and all were escorted to the director's' office. On all occasions I asked for 3 students to also come and share what had happened with the director. Instantly more than 3 volunteers. At the directors office I gave my comments then quickly left so that the errant student and the other felt free to speak.

 

All three were dismissed never allowed to register again and all grades, all semesters, cancelled. In every case there had been several incidents in other classes which had been reported to the director.

 

On every occasion when we got back to the lesson one or more students thanked me for taking action.

 

 

 

WOW! You had some pretty bad experiences! SO FAR, I never had incidents that bad! The thing I heard that bad at my school is the year before I taught here, the foreign teacher came back to his class after lunch to find the GIRLS sitting in a circle drinking wine cooler and playing cards. When the foreign teacher confronted them, they asked if he wanted to join them.

I worked at a school that was considered a bit bad back home in Hawaii and I worked with the most troubled students in the school but I never had any of them try to do drugs in class. Can I ask, what part of Thailand is this school?

11 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

With Prathom students, I would tell anyone being really naughty to stand outside the door, they hate that as any Thai teacher walking past is going to ask them why they are standing there.

Also. I used to punish them by telling them to stand up on their chairs for so long.

I was considering having the naughty student stand outside the door but my wife who is a Thai teacher said that even though most likely not......the naughty student goes wondering off and gets into trouble such as in a fight and get hurt. I would probably be held responsible for that student especially being a foreign teacher here in Thailand where even though I get along well with everyone in my school, I would be left alone to fend for myself. This to others here in Thailand is a highly unlikely scenario but I shouldn't press my luck.

Also about other teachers or faculty questioning a naughty student standing outside, my wife's school in the city this would work as the director and vice directors constantly walk around campus. But, for my school here in the countryside, this would never work as the director is almost never in school and the Thai teachers and vice directors wouldn't even think of using their free time walking around campus even to save their life.

But thanks for the response though. I would think  about twice about having the student stand on his chair as I could imagine the student falling off the chair somehow injuring themselves but I will try using just standing up for a period of time as my students are so lazy that even having them stand for a minute is absolute hell for them.

2 hours ago, HHTel said:

The Child Protection Act in Thailand is quite comprehensive but ignored by most Thai teachers.  Until parents use the law to get rid of such teachers, then nothing will happen.  

But now things are changing for even Thai teachers as my wife recently moved from teaching at a school out here in the country to a school in the city of Sakhon Nakon and had to change her ways of punishing students. But I think for EVERY foreign teacher herein Thailand its not a matter of IF but WHEN something happens.

2 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

A good public caning...

Haha! I'm sure if public cannings were enforced here on Thai students, it WOULD make an impact on students behaviors especially in classes. But sadly, its not an option.

41 minutes ago, akirasan said:

I know, right? Talk about about asking for trouble. I've had teachers who were visiting class put a stick in my hand before, but I always put it back on the desk and keep doing what I was doing.

Of course you get those days where the kids are just impossible to control or one student wants to make class hell for everybody else. Those days I'll shift the lesson outside or play some game to start with that gets them running around. The real troublemakers tend to act up when they're either bored or they've got had a problem at home so it helps to take their mind off whatever is bothering them, burn off some energy and makes the class more fun for everybody.

Thanks for posting. I never thought about the reason some students act up actually. Ill try starting with a game to get the students to burn off energy at the start of class.

54 minutes ago, akirasan said:

I got told I'm allowed to hit the students but I'd rather not.

 

I give the really naughty ones some responsibility. Like calling the roll at the start of the class, helping me clean up afterwards, running small errands for me, just give them something to do besides acting up.

Thanks for your response. That's some good ideas especially cleaning up afterwards. I had a stick in my past classes but of course, never used it on the students but the white board and the top of the desk got constant beatings from the stick when trying to get the students attention. One thing I noticed about Thai students, they can make a ton of noise but absolutely hate it when teachers are the ones making loud noises.

56 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Another slow news day? 

Yes.......

15 hours ago, Rhys said:

 Sadly.. welcome to the reality of Thailand... Discipline the students.. you are looked upon as a troublemaker.  Thai students many know Westerners try to punish their behavior but laugh and carry on... because nothing will happen. Yes it bites.... but that is only one of the realities of teaching in Thailand...

 

Cell phone, jumped classes, cheating.. all forgiven...

 

Quite frustrating indeed.

Thanks for your response. Yeah I hear you loud and clear. My wife's a Thai teacher and she said now, even Thai teachers are very limited on how they discipline their students.

I would like to know what sort of punishments other teachers here in Thailand hand out to students who break rules in their class. I'm referring to after a student or students

have been warned and repeatedly broke a certain rule. I just want some ideas on what kind of punishment we can give students here in Thailand, preferably mathayom level students as I teach in a Mathayom school. 

Thanks in advance

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

Yes. That is the purpose of your visit. The fact you can legally work during your visit is, in your case, irrelevant to your visa application.

Thanks for your response and pointing that out to me.

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

They seem to want that under occupation on this form. http://www.thaiconsulatela.org/pdf/visa_application 55.pdf

They only ask for the name of your employer under that. The next line down is for your address.

You could write teacher and the name of the school since you can legally work with a non-o visa based upon marriage.

I don't know why I missed "current" address.Thanks for pointing that out to me and for your help.

48 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Where are you applying for the visa at. Every embassy and consulate normally has different visa application form.

Or are you applying for an extension of stay and are asking about completing a TM7 form.

Thanks for your fast response Ubonjoe.

    I will be going back home to Hawaii for four weeks and will be sending my application to the Thai embassy in Los Angeles. I downloaded the application from the Los Angeles Thai Consulate.