Tofer

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

Yes the land office will come and verify property boundaries for a fee (I heard 5-6k from a builder) but GPS data itself isn't accurate enough. Not sure what devices they use but GPS itself only gets you down to a few meter accuracy. Special devices can get better accuracy but I'm not sure if any in use by the Thai land office can do few centimeter accurate geolocation. Would be interested in what kind of data they have for chanote title deeds.

They also record the physical dimemsions as the Aor Bor Tor's plans we have had these shown, presumably from a land office download. So providing you still have some posts you know to be in the right positions you should be able to plot the position of missing or disputed ones.

I would also be interested to know how accurate their survey methods are.

3 hours ago, LivinginKata said:

 

Trouble is that these Chanote Posts are often moved or even removed in the quiet of the night. My neighbour in Kata did that to gain a meter frontage  x 30m back on our undeveloped piece of land.

I can well believe that. A survey to check the GPS coordinates would be required to verify / dispute a post position. Easily arranged for a fee I believe.

14 hours ago, Puccini said:

What does the Thai text of the inscription on this boundary marker mean?

 

 

 

Image source: https://www.thairath.co.th/content/1171370

It is a Chanote post with the reference number inscribed which relates to survey and will be recorded on the land office master plan and the land title deed.

 Who said anything about arguing Stargazer?

My comment was referring to your last sentence in which you alluded to the inferiority of quote - "cheap Charlie guy with his own beach blanket and kids", as if he was some low life that cannot afford to pay for a beach chair and lunch...

Or was it too subtle for you!

20 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

It all boils down as to whether or not beaches are owned by the King IMO.

 

I can understand the 'erosion' argument, but those owning land/property just beyond the beach know about this and surely have to expect to gradually lose their land as the coast moves inward?

Not if they build a sea wall / sea defences.

4 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

This is Thailand we are talking about. I had the privilege of sitting at the beach in

front of the Kata beach resort. I let the server know that I was not a hotel guest but

asked how much for a chair under their umbrella if I bought lunch from their menu

and a beer. I got to stay for 3 hours and I did the same at Club Med, later that week

and again no problem. This case seems to be Cheap Charlie guy with his own

beach blanket, and kids.

Geezer

Well bully for you, we all bow to your superiority!!

God forbid the chap only wants to sit on the beach, and mother of all offences - he has kids......

10 hours ago, Puccini said:

 

What does land that has been eroded by the sea look like, as compared to land that has not been eroded?

 

Looking at the photo below, can one recognise what land has been eroded and what has not been eroded? 

 

According to the OP, as HHtel quite rightly pointed out, it is the area that has Chanote markers and concrete posts, assuming they are genuine and recorded as such on a land title deed document and the land office master survey plan.

Otherwise I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments as I noted previously that the exercise of policing this beach area is futile and petty, and should be clearly delineated by some method if they wish to maintain privacy across it.

27 minutes ago, HHTel said:

I know that.  A survey marker is shown in the OP's picture which is what I was referring to. 

Fair enough. But without clear delineation of their owned area wouldn't you agree the exercise of policing it is futile and quite frankly petty.

If they have signs stating it's private maybe they should run a rope around the area laid in the sand so the public can see it without having to be confronted by the hotel security. I'm sure those Chinote markers are not so clear as in the photo on a regular basis.

I also note, it appears, they have marked off the swimming area, do they police that as well? Just being flippant, I know the beach drops off very quickly and is dangerous there for swimmers. 

54 minutes ago, dpdp said:

 

Ridiculous. I had 5 benz in a row, all brand new, and never even 1 time I had any problem with it, in Europe as in Thailand.

 

 

How is it ridiculous when it is a fact, unless you are calling me a liar.

It was a top range, can't remember the model, saloon hired in Oman for my weekly trip from Muscat to a project in Sur, as I got fed up flying and had more time on my hands to (try to) enjoy the drive. My company Nissan Patrol and Mazda 323 city run around were unsuitable for such a journey, and so was the Merc, and an Aston Martin Lagonda I took on one occasion.

Mercs are frumpy and quite dated in styling. BMW's have lost the plot with their designs , although I have owned them and enjoyed the ride. Jaguars beat them hands down for the ride quality and styling, IMO.

9 hours ago, ostyan said:

In Thailand, the coast is the property of the crown. You may rent some part of it, but it does not mean that this property is yours. 

Otherwise, there is a decreasing number of tourists here and they spend less than the past years. Only a total fool can believe that sweeping out a family with kids is a good idea, especially on an empty, and boring beach.

The hotel may have five stars, but the management surely does not have a 5-gram brain, all together. 

Congrats, a good model for attracting tourists. I would have also lashed them or caned, maybe make them sit on a Spanish donkey or something… Finally, they are fallangs, next time they may come to my hotel ….. Oh , no

Well said. But be more specific, if there is a Chinote or NS3 title deed on the land it is not the property of the Crown. 

Send them all to Hua Hin as punishment, there they can ride horses and kick around the horse turds in the waves lapping on the beautiful (vendor inundated) beach front at sunset.... My apologise if they've actually cleaned this area up since my visit 25 years or so ago, as I had no inclination to return.

10 hours ago, Puccini said:

As beach-goers, we tend to see the sand-covered area along the seashore as the beach. This may, however, not be and most likely is not the definition of "beach" in the relevant Thai law, which is why I have issued the challenge to find this law. I know it is not the definition in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, where I looked it up earlier, but this is beside the point in a discussion of; the only thing that counts is the definition given in the law.

 

 

Quite agree, hence the futility of trying to police a section of "apparent" public beach without clear delineation. There didn't appear to be any hotel loungers or anything to make this action necessary, and even if there were they could easily be noted as for hotel guest use only. Perhaps they were also overstepping the mark by policing the area including the public domain, which we all know is possible by the well known example of shop front roadside parking.

I also agree a physical boundary of wall / sleepers / planters would spoil the aesthetics and look rather incongruous sticking out into the general beach area. There lies the dilemma!

4 hours ago, HHTel said:

Let's try simple logic.

 

There has to be a point where private land ends and public beach starts.

 

This line is marked with official boundary markers as shown in the picture.

 

I live in Hua Hin and if you walk along the high end of the beach, you will find these markers all along denoting where private land finishes.  These survey markers reflect the land set out on the different chanotes.

 

Any erosion of your land doesn't free it to the public domain.  You still own it by law.

Thank you, and there you have it in your eventual distinction between "private land and public beach"!

If you read my other posts I note quite clearly you can own land that has been eroded by the sea provided it is properly recorded as such in the title documents.

By the way, the concrete fence posts, shown in the picture, are not official boundary markers. Chinote markers are tubular concrete posts set in the ground at, or slightly above ground level with a reference mark on top for cross referencing on the title deed plans.

My beach front property had concrete fence posts concreted into the beach approximately 15m beyond our Chinote boundary, that doesn't make it our private land.

7 hours ago, Puccini said:

 

I don't think the Land Department can go beyond installing border markers. Additional physical delimiters such as a wall, fence, hedge, etc are up to the owner. In the case of this hotel, they obviously want to allow their guests an unobstructed view of, and unfettered access to, the sea and for this reason built no physical barrier.

I completely agree. But it's a bit ridiculous of DL to try enforcing their privacy on, what appears to be, a public beach without some form of delineation, other than a few concrete posts purchased at the local builders merchants for 100 odd baht each, which most tourists wouldn't have a clue what their significance is.

It wasn't as if the visitor was using their guest only beach loungers or anything.

9 hours ago, dpdp said:

 

Only cheap charlies who never drove a Benz can speak like this. Nobody pays only for a badge and interior, all Benz are a lot better to drive, even the cheapest ones. Compare to a Benz, even the top camry or accord are crap to drive.

 

 

 

 

I hired a Benz for a 700km trip in Oman many years ago, it was crap! The seat had a stupid roll feature that felt like you were being rocked around and couldn't feel the road because of it, the drive was mediocre and the a/c packed up after about 2 hours making it a long hot journey delayed whilst waiting for a garage to fix it.

Every trip after that I hired an Audi, vast improvement....

The Meridien Hotel, on a small cove / beach just South of Patong Beach, built in such a way as to try to prevent access to the beach and by default maintain it as a private facility. They were, I believe, forced to provide a public access way to the beach.

3 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Some of the beach areas around the old mining operations are artificial and or reclaimed land. This means that the beach was never there previously. I don't believe the public right of access on those beaches apply.

 

Having stayed at the Dusit years ago, I found it to be a lovely resort. Management did a fantastic job of keeping beach touts away. All guests were very grateful to be left in peace. Also, unsavoury people who tried to take advantage of the investment the Dusit had done in keeping the beach clean and groomed were politely moved along. Mr.Aziz should be content at his lower cost  abode which most likely doesn't invest anything in maintaining the beach the way the Dusit does.  A clean beach requires money and the Dusit does its part, hence the reason the Dusit charges more.

All credit to them, but it doesn't give them the legal right to exclude the public from using it.

12 minutes ago, NamKangMan said:

 

Ahhhhh, wouldn't the discussion revolve around whether the hotel has the right to buy said "sand / beach" and put up said "concrete boundary markers????"

 

Oh, that's right, they have a piece of paper that they bribed a Land Office Official to create for them, giving them ownership, so they must own it. 

Perhaps they already owned it, and the posts are recorded on bona fide title deeds before coastal erosion turned the land into beach.

I would have thought DL should have delineated their boundaries with a clear wall / sleepers to avoid confusion. 

As Puccini states the videos do not make clear which part of the beach the visitor is actually on.

2 hours ago, tryasimight said:

Seems like the guy may have been on private land not the beach, with the 'beach' encroaching onto the hotel's land by erosion. If that is the case then the hotel is right.

I agree, but only if they have previously recorded boundaries by way of a Chanote or NS3.

We own beachfront land that has physical evidence that it extended more than 15m beyond our current sea wall before being eroded, but the Chinote has only ever been granted for the land within our sea wall boundary. Everything outside of that is public under the jurisdiction of the Marine Department.

I was offered beachfront land in front the Sheraton next door to the Dusit Laguna 30 odd years ago. It no longer exists due to coastal erosion. Without formal title deeds recording GPS referenced posts it doesn't exist in the private domain.

4 hours ago, Bendi said:

Just gotta love it. All those thavisa members posting their wiews..and wrong again..lmao??

So kindly enlighten us, what is the correct assumption?

4 hours ago, HHTel said:

Yes it can.

Really!!! 

Kindly justify that statement.

23 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

Almost everywhere in the world the regulation is 1:10, the UK is the only one that states 1:40.

 

You want to claim the Brits are the only smart people in the world?

You're very well informed if you can quote the regs of almost every country in the world! I would take my hat off to you, if I wore one....

The Brits are not the only smart people in the world, but definitely up there with the best. Over a very long expatriate career I've found the predominant senior professional and supervisory trade related expatriates to be Brits, unless they are cheapskate companies that pay peanuts, then we all know what they get then! 

Seems like we've been here before Destiny...

It appears you are somewhat unsure of yourself to manage this project, in Cebu, PH if I'm not mistaken. Take dotpoom's advice and get a good builder to advise, but first get an architect / interior designer to design the scheme properly, they can save you their fees many times over in increased resale value of a well designed property.

There is no need to access the ceiling void below your floor and it would be foolhardy to do so unless that unit is vacant and has no ceilings installed. All relocated connections for drainage and water supply pipe work can, and definitely should be, done above your floor level. As I mentioned previously with rear access wc's pipe work can be run in ducts / vanity units very simply and attractively above floor level to connect into your existing drainage where it drops through the floor. Likewise kitchen plumbing & drainage can run behind the kitchen units in the service void or underneath within the plinth space.

Good luck.

Sorry for going slightly off topic, but as this has descended into a dispute over discrimination I thought this might interest some.

A FRENCH company running cruises (Luang Sai) on the Mekong river discriminates between foreigners who have to pay full prices and Asean country nationals / Thai residents who pay almost half the full tour rate.

Where did that come from, can anyone enlighten us?

18 hours ago, Will E Vormer said:

A thai Will is so important. Its amazing the amount of farangs I meet, with assets here, who havent done a thai Will

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

Not only here, everywhere in the world I believe this is a problem with people trying to ignore the inevitable, or procrastinating over an important issue.

9 hours ago, oracle said:

 

I agree, but you must register the land under a Thai company with the shareholding structure that you mention, i.e. foreign shareholding up to 49%, preference shares for the foreigner and being a sole and foreign managing director. If this is accepted by the land office you are pretty safe when it comes to your Thai shareholders. Not what you usually see that you register the land to a company with a different (fully Thai) shareholding structure and then after the land has been transferred to the company the shareholding is changed to the foreign Thai shareholding that you mention.

 

If you follow this last procedure your Thai shareholders are questionable and company shareholding structure likely illegal when it comes to land holding.

I did not mention transferring shareholdings, simply set the company up correctly in the first instance as I described and as you noted in your first paragraph.

For the record I am not intending setting up a company for myself, but thank you for everyones concern and input. Thai wills and a usurfruct will suffice to protect against a potential family grab in the event my wife passes before me I believe.