Mike Teavee

The technically correct answer is 120K if filing a single Return, 220K if filing a joint return, you don't take your allowances into consideration when it comes to whether you should be filing a return or not, it's just the assessable income that counts. Practically I'm remitting up to my total tax free number (235K for me) and if asked to file a return I'll plead ignorance & pay the 2,000B fine out of the 5,000B they'd owe me from withheld tax on interest in my Thai Bank account.

I honestly think TRD are just looking for you to do all of the calculations & declare what Tax you believe you owe, that way they don't need to update their systems to add sections for different kinds of income &, more importantly, don't need to understand the nuances of how various incomes are taxed in different countries... They'll just apply basic Tax fundamentals & assess whether what you are telling them passes the "Sniff Test". If it doesn't pass the "Sniff Test" they can audit you & check your calculations but again, I think they'll just be looking to see if what you're saying looks correct based on their local Tax knowledge & maybe a cursory knowledge of your countries tax, I don't believe they're going to become Tax Experts in all of the 61 countries that Thailand has DTA's with. Using my hobbyhorse of CGT as an example, I don't believe TRD cares about what cost basis you used to do the calculation from they just want to see the remitted income/what percentage of it was gains and as long as if audited you can show how you did the calculations & justify using that method (e.g. as a Brit dealing in British Assets I can argue the case for using Average Cost but couldn't legitimately argue a case for LIFO unless I was dealing in US Assets) then I don't think you'll have a problem passing the "Sniff Test".

I know that's the case for normal UK CGT calculations, but in the scenario where it's a Non-Dom remitting Gains into the UK from the US is it still the same calculation or could they avail themselves of the flexibility in the US rules to minimise the gain?

Although this does not meet the criteria of the example above, I came across this example of remitting interest to the UK which shows how the UK treats "Income" that has already been taxed in the Foreign Country ((again I'm using the UK as it's the only country I know that taxes foreign income on a remittance basis)... Jenny is taxable on the remittance basis and is liable to UK tax at the rate of 40%. Interest of £9,000 is paid into her foreign bank account after deduction of tax in the ‘other’ country at the rate of 10% which is available as a credit against UK tax on that income. Jenny decides to remit £4,500 of this interest to the UK. As Jenny has remitted half of the net amount of the interest she was paid, she’s able to claim half of the admissible foreign tax as a credit against UK tax on the income. Jenny must pay UK tax as follows: Amount Gross income £10,000 Foreign tax £1,000 Net amount £9,000 Amount Remitted amount £4,500 Available FTCR £500 Half the income has been remitted and so half the foreign tax is available as a credit against UK tax. Amount Taxable amount £5,000 UK tax (40%) £2,000 minus FTCR £500 Amount to pay £1,500 If Jenny does not claim FTCR but instead claims a deduction for the foreign tax paid, she is liable to UK tax on the amount remitted of £4,500 × 40% = £1,800 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/remittance-basis-hs264-self-assessment-helpsheet/remittance-basis-2021-hs264

I agree with you on the Property side & as already been mentioned, this can be a nightmare to calculate for UK/US guys who are selling property that isn't considered their primary property - in the UK we have to file a separate tax return within 60 days of completing the sale! For CGT, I think we're agreed on how to do the core calculation but what we don't know/agree on is what to use as the basis of the costs for the original assets (FIFO, LIFO, Average etc....) the videos I've seen seem to be saying that it's on you to calculate the gain & use the calculated percentage to work out what you're assessable income is & as Thailand doesn't seem to have a way of calculating it the only way I can see of doing it would be to apply the rules of the country in which the Asset is. As we don't know what Thailand uses, perhaps we could look to a similar scenario where Gains are remitted to the UK (Only other country I'm aware of that taxes Non Doms based on remittance) & where the rules are hopefully a bit clearer. So lets say we use an example of a German (or any other nationality apart from US/UK) Living & a Tax Resident in the UK remitting gains from shares in the US (Where they're Non-Citizen & Non-Tax Resident) on $12,000 of shares made up of 1,000 units bought as:- 300 @ $100 = $3,000 250 @ $110 = $2,750 250 @ $130 = $3,250 200 @ $150 = $3,000 ... The gain was made up by selling 200 units at $2 to give proceeds of $4,000... What would the reported "Income" be for their UK Return??? I'll leave it as a question in case there's anybody here who can provide the answer from experience rather than me trying to trawl through HMRC documents at 4:50am!!!

My 2 cents for a UK Expat only resident in Thailand would be 1. Thai CGT is applicable as there is no provision in the UK-TH DTA that would prevent you having to pay tax on a Gain even if you've already been taxed on it. 2. There wasn't a Gain so no CGT anyway. 3. Assuming the interest was "Co-Mingled" with the original savings then we're yet to get a conclusive answer on this but my opinion would be that as you cannot pick & choose which part of the monies you're spending, it would be a percentage of the overall remitted amount. E.g. I have have £100,000 in a bank account that pays 4% Interest and at the end of the year I have £104,000 If I were to remit all of that money into Thailand then the £4,000 would be Tax assessable, however if I spent £4,000 in the UK & remitted £100,000 then I believe the assessable income would be approx. 3.85% of the £4,000 interest earned i.e. approx. £154

Maybe I worded it badly, but by snipping my reply you're taking me out of context a little as I actually said that you do the calculation based on the rules of the country where the asset is & report the percentage gain to TRD, not that they would use the country's rules to calculate it. Nothing easier for TRD than you saying Here's $XX,000, YY% of it is the capital gain. Oh & I know exactly what you mean about the CGT regs around Non-Primary Property, they're just as bad in the UK - Something us Expats who only rent out our old homes (Not even Buy-2-Let) have to deal with when it comes time to sell them.

I get my UK CGT knowledge from actually writing the code for the UK's largest Stockbroker that calculated it for Bed & Breakfasting & the code that was used to produce annual CTC certificates, but that was pre the 1998 changes so admit things have changed since then, however how you calculate a Gain hasn't, perhaps you could share an alternative way of calculating the gain than the one I listed. Would also be interested in learning about any countries that use FIFO for doing (normal) Gains calculations & anything at all about how Thailand calculates CGT, from the Tax videos that I've seen it's on you to calculate the Gain and on your return apply that percentage to what you've remitted when listing your assessable tax - If you're not going to do it using the rules of the country that the Asset is in & the country you are resident in doesn't have any rules, what rules would you suggest should be used? I can't find the one that went into the calculation in more details but it's briefly covered in this one...

This maybe why the Expat Tax advisors have been saying that it's the Original Cost of the Asset that counts. Doing a calculation that says Cost X, Realised Y, %Gain = (Y-X)/Y is very straight forward & repeatable irrespective of which country the asset is held in, trying to understand the different tapered reliefs of 60 different countries is not!

Think about it, you are not bringing the Asset over to Sell, you're remitting the proceeds of selling that Asset so the Gains are calculated according to the rules of the country of the Asset (If for no other reason than you could have a tax obligation in that country) E.g. if I'm resident in the UK & sell some shares on the DAX, I don't apply UK rules to calculate CGT, I apply German rules & then declare the net Gain to UK RD when I remit the monies. Countries can tax that Gain at whatever rate they feel is appropriate & they can argue that you've got the calculation wrong, but they would have to do so by running through the CGT rules of the country of the Asset, and besides even if Thailand could use it's own calculation, it doesn't have any as it treats remitted Gains as Income Tax. Capital gains Most types of capital gains are taxable as ordinary income. However, the following capital gains are exempt from tax: Capital gains on the sale of shares in a company listed on the Stock Exchange of Thailand, provided that the sale is made on the Stock Exchange of Thailand, and on the sale of investment units in a mutual fund. Gains on the sale of non-interest bearing debentures, bills, or debt instruments issued by a corporate entity, except in the case where the bonds or debt instruments were sold for the first time at a price lower than their redemption price to an individual. Gains on the sale of securities listed on stock exchanges in the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) member countries and traded through the ASEAN Link, excluding securities in the form of treasury bills, bonds, bills, or debentures. https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/income-determination -------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, having said all that out loud (or rather Typed it loudly 🙂), if we are following the rules of the country of the Asset then surely Taper relief must come into it, but Expat Tax videos I've seen say that it's the Original Cost of the Asset that's used. If I were calculating the CGT on some UK shares, I'd use a standard UK CGT calculator which would include Taper Relief & have the documentation to back up my rationale for why I came to the number I did, Worse case would be TRD re-calculate it without the Taper Relief.

I'm assuming you get an annual P60 (or equivalent) for your Civil Service Pension which should be all the proof you need to show TRD even if it is in comingled funds.

There a similar announcement about Visa Free travel to the UK a couple of months back But haven't heard a dickie bird since...

Not 100% sure about CGT paid on Property Sales (Most people don't need to) but for other asset sales there are no tax credits as UK Expats don't pay Capital Gains on the sale of (Non-Property) assets. See #4 of Article 14 from the DTA... Article 14 - Capital Gains (1) Capital gains from the alienation of immovable property, as defined in paragraph (2) Article 7, may be taxed in the Contracting State in which such property is situated. (2) Capital gains from the alienation of movable property forming part of the business property of a permanent establishment which an enterprise of a Contracting State has in the other Contracting State or of movable property pertaining to a fixed base available to a resident of a Contracting State in the other Contracting State for the purpose of performing professional services, including such gains from the alienation of such a permanent establishment (alone or together with the whole enterprise) or of such a fixed base, may be taxed in the other State. (3) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (2) of this Article, capital gains derived by a resident of a Contracting State from the alienation of ships and aircraft operated in international traffic and movable property pertaining to the operation of such ships and aircraft shall be taxable only in that Contracting State. (4) Capital gains from the alienation of any property other than those mentioned in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this Article shall be taxable only in the Contracting State of which the alienator is a resident. (5) The provisions of paragraph (4) of this Article shall not affect the right of a Contracting State to levy, according to its own law, a tax on capital gains from the alienation of any property derived by an individual who is a resident of the other Contracting State and has been a resident of the first-mentioned Contracting State at any time during the five years immediately preceding the alienation of the property. NB. Point #5 is the UK "5 Year Rule" which stops people becoming Non-Resident for less than 5 years to avoid paying CGT, if Thailand were to implement something similar then it would scupper a lot of plans to do a Hotblack Desiato Edit: This explains the 5 year rule much better than I can 🙂 An individual needs to be non-resident for more than five years to escape UK CGT on assets owned at the time of departure (other than UK land and property) of which he or she disposes after leaving the UK. This five-year period is from when the individual’s sole UK tax residence ceases. If a non-resident becomes resident again in the UK during this five-year period, any assets sold after leaving the UK will be taxed in the UK when the individual returns. If he or she becomes resident again after this five-year period, any assets disposed of while non-resident will not be subject to UK CGT. If the individual purchases assets during a period of temporary non-residence, these assets will not be subject to UK CGT if sold while not resident, even if the individual returns before the end of this five-year period. Complications can arise in respect of the purchase during this temporary non-residence period of a further shareholding in a company that was already in existence at the time the individual left the UK, and the pooling rules that apply (see CG26600). As with everything, there are exceptions to this rule, which are explained in CG26610. Examples of such exceptions are: the transfer of assets between spouses or civil partners and the transferee then subsequently selling the asset during a period of temporary non-residence; and certain gains that have been rolled over into another asset, which is subsequently disposed of during a period of temporary non-residence. https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/gcabe/7-2

If you ever wanted to put a "Value" on access to Fast Track, pre-Covid I used to pay 20,000 THB pa for unlimited Arrivals/Departures with Thailand Longstay Management (was alternating between working 10 days in Singapore & spending 5 days in Bangkok so in & out twice per month). I thought the service (& other paid for Fast Track services) were no longer available, but when I was in the Fast Track queue coming back from the UK on Tuesday I spotted them helping somebody through, it could be that you now need to get the Retirement Package to get this... https://www.thailongstay.co.th/retirement_visa.html

Yes, but what would the GDP growth have been if it wasn't for Brexit? I think most people agree that it would have been higher still These estimates suggest that Brexit had already reduced UK real GDP relative to the baseline by just under one per cent in 2020 as consumers and businesses adapted their expectations even before the TCA came into force. Our estimates further suggest that three years after the transition period, UK real GDP is some 2-3 per cent lower due to Brexit, compared to a scenario where the United Kingdom retained EU membership. This corresponds to a per capita income loss of approximately £850. https://www.niesr.ac.uk/publications/revisiting-effect-brexit?type=global-economic-outlook-topical-feature

One thing that could be different depending on the country of the asset is how original costs are calculated & in particular how to calculate the cost of an asset when it was bought in "Chunks" at different cost points - I.e. do you use FIFO, LIFO, Average Cost etc... E.g. Let's say the £12,000 example is made up of 1,000 units of an Asset bought as:- 300 @ £100 = £3,000 250 @ £110 = £2,750 250 @ £130 = £3,250 200 @ £150 = £3,000 Selling 200 units at £2 would give proceeds of £4,000 and a gain of:- FIFO - £2,000 (Units cost £100 each) - Gain = 50% LIFO - £1,000 (Units cost £150 each) - Gain = 25% AVG - £1,600 (Average cost of each Unit is £120) - Gain = 40% [Ignoring 30 day Bed & Breakfast transactions], I'm pretty sure UK uses Average Cost (AKA "Section 104 Holding") so in this example the assessable gain would be £1,600 or 40%.

Capital Gains is calculated as the difference between the purchase costs & sales proceeds & whilst some countries will then apply Tapered Relief depending on how long you have held the asset, Thailand does not so it's the Original cost with no relief for inflation etc... Once you've done this calculation you can split the proceeds into a percentage that's the original cost & a percentage that is the Gain, you then use this Gain percentage to calculate the Capital Gains liability based on how much of the proceeds you remit. E.g. Buy some shares at a cost of £12,000 & sell these for £15,000 for a gain of £3,000 which gives 80% (£12,000) for the Original Costs & 20% (£3,000) for the Gain Remit £3,000 & the assessable gain is £600 Remit £12,000 & the assessable gain is £2,400 Remit £15,000 & the assessable gain is £3,000 Any assessable gain is treated as income tax so taxed on the sliding scale up to 35%.

Thanks for that, I have read that somebody managed to show 1 year at >$80K & a pension statement showing that they'll continue to be receiving that but it's good to know that I might be able to apply by showing what I receive today & proof that it will be >$80K going forward. My birthday is in Feb so once I get 1 or 2 pension payments in my account I'll try applying for the Visa, if I'm successful it will give me more flexibility as to when I bring the monies over & if not I can just revert to my original plan.

The money would come from selling shares I've held for many, years so I'd need to pay Capital Gain's on >65% of the $250K, cheaper to use the money to have a 6 month holiday! Plus as I'm only a couple of years away from being 60, my "Plan" is to spend 6 months outside of Thailand in 2026 & use the Tax Free Lump Sum from my pension to purchase a Condo & then apply for the LTR-WP using the $40K + $250K invested method as I'll be able to show an income of >$40K for >2 years to support this. If I don't go down the Investment route then I believe I'd need to wait until I've received 2 years of pension before I could show the required ">$80K for 2 years".

I know & am giving serious thought to doing a Hotblack Desiato & spending a year dead so I can bring the money over! Absolutely, it's all part of the plan & I am trying stick to the plan, but as I'm retired & not adding anything to my pension pots, it's harder & harder not to take them early as the differential gets smaller & smaller.

You missed out the part about being old enough to claim your pension 🙂 I'm joking because I am one of those guys who don't meet the Income criteria for the LTR as I don't want to take my pension until I'm 60 & the recent changes to Tax Regulations means I'm not going to bring over $250K to bridge the gap... Thinking about it, would be great if BOI could get an exemption on Tax for people bringing over the Foreign Investment element. Joking aside, even though I don't meet the criteria for the LTR I really don't understand why people try to knock it, if it's not for you then just scroll past threads discussing it & have a quiet little snigger to yourself about those "Suckers" who have got one* I also don't recall seeing a post that used having an LTR to "Brag" about how "Wealthy" somebody was & if somebody were to do that then I suspect that they're probably not as "Wealthy" as they think they are (Income is not a good indicator of "Wealth"). * Hopefully I've been very clear from my previous posts that I think the LTR is a great visa & will be applying for one as soon as I can meet the criteria 🙂

Am sure it will be slightly different in each country but the principle is the same, you sell an asset to lock in gains & use your tax free allowance. E.g. a quick Google tells me that the allowance in Germany is €1,000, so presumably I could buy an asset for €1,000 & if it doubled, sell it for €2,000 at the end of the Tax year without having to pay any tax. If I thought there were further gains to be made on the asset I could buy it back for €2,000 and the baseline for CGT will be the €2,000 that I paid for it so if I then sold it the next Tax Year for €3,500 I would only pay tax on €500 (€3,500 proceeds - €2,000 cost). If I didn't do the "Bed & Breakfast" during the 1st Tax Year to crystalise the gain, then the tax due on the final sale would be on €2,500 (€3,500 proceeds - €1,000 costs). Use it or Lose it 🙂

Both facts are not 100% true, but are correct in the context of what I was replying to.... For the 1st point, Thailand taxes all income arising in Thailand & income remitted into Thailand https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html (Which is the point we were discussing). For the 2nd point, Thailand can ask you to provide any information they like & if you don't provide it can make an "Assessment" of how much Tax they think you owe whether you owe it or not, it's then up to you to challenge the ruling & prove that you don't owe it which would involve you providing them all of the information they asked for & explaining why it's not relevant - But the same is true of any money that you remit into Thailand. But the fact is that Capital Gains is calculated as the difference between the Cost & Proceeds of an Asset purchase/sale, it's only cumulative in the country of the Asset for calculating your tax obligations there - This is why in the UK people will often "Bed & Breakfast" their assets at the End/Start of the Tax year to crystallise Gains & Re-baseline the "Cost" of the asset for a future sale. Example I actively trade in a stock & make 100% each time, I start with £10K which becomes £20K which becomes £40K which becomes £80K, on each sale I satisfy my UK CGT obligations (though pay zero tax as I'm an expat, not 100% true with the 5 year rule but won't go into that here). I then remit the final sale proceeds to Thailand, they are going to calculate the gain as £80K proceeds minus £40K cost = £40K, NOT £80K proceeds minus £10K costs. If instead of remitting the £80K I buy some more shares & sell these shortly after the Capital Gain/Loss will be on the Proceeds minus the £80K costs so CGT is likely to be negligible if not negative. However it's often said that Tax is as much an "Art as it is a Science" & doing this for large transfers might not pass the "Sniff Test" as @Mike Listerlikes to call it, so it would be advisable to leave some time between the final purchase/sale even though technically there is no difference. The "Science" says it's just the gains on the final asset sale, the "Art" is passing the Sniff Test. Edit: As an aside, It's crazy to think that they would/could go through every buy/sell you've ever made to work out where every penny that went into the purchase of the final asset came from, I keep pretty detailed records & I couldn't do it as I've traded in some of the assets for 35 years Plus a lot of them were "Gifted" to me as part of Performance Bonuses for the Bank I worked for & I wouldn't know where to start calculating the Book Value/"Purchase Price" of those. they had a nominal book value at the time but that was so long ago it's mute as far as the UK is concerned.... And then there's all the Drip/Scrip dividends over the years which included a bonus element... My head hurts just thinking about it!

Bangkok Bank will do up to 6 months (I think, definitely 3 months as I get one for my extension) on the spot, its ones longer than this (e.g. some people need a 12 month statement for their extension) that take 7 days. OP, What is the 3 letter code entry in your Bangkok Bank book If it's FTT then you're good, if it's anything else (e.g. TRF) then I'd recommend printing the Wise Transfer receipts to take with you to Immigration.

Yes... They're only auditing what you've remitted & it's on you to tell them the source of the money which, in the case of the sale of an asset, includes whether any CGT was involved. To show this you would provide evidence of the Purchase & Sale of that asset. In your case the money in your "Savings" came from the sale of the original asset so includes the CGT element of that sale, in my case the money in my "Savings" came from the sale of the new asset so includes the CGT element of that sale. Example 1: I sell my house, get a £250K gain put it into a "Savings" account & at some point in the future remit the money into Thailand... TRD ask me where the money came from, I say the sale of my house, they ask for purchase/sale details & I'm liable for tax on the gain from the house. Example 2: I sell my house, get a £250K gain use it to purchase some shares, sit on these for 5 years, sell them & remit the money into Thailand... TRD ask me where the money came from, I say the sale of my shares, they ask for purchase/sale details & I'm liable for tax on the gain from the shares. Example 3: I sell my house, get a £250K gain use it to purchase some shares, sit on these for 5 minutes, sell them & remit the money into Thailand... TRD ask me where the money came from, I say the sale of my shares, they ask for purchase/sale details & I'm liable for tax on the gain from the shares. In Examples 2 & 3 the original gain on the sale of my house doesn't come into it, nor does any other source of money used to purchase the new shares, the starting point for TRD is the Asset not what was used to purchase it. Now, Example 3 is an extreme example & you might be pushing your luck with them on a 10 Million Baht transfer but strictly speaking there is no different between that & Example 2 (especially if during the 5 years no gains were made on the shares) & I don't think anybody would argue that the gains from the original sale of the house come into it in Example 2. However, If I were planning to do this on that kind of scale then I would probably look to do the Purchase & sale in different calendar years (i.e. Buy the Asset late December, sell it early Jan) as that's what TRD are used to operating in.