Grover

Tell her you've a genetical disease that will cause your kids to be born weird, until you are a certain age at which point they'll likely be born perfect...

Advice noted.

The OP could get snipped

You got me thinking.

So, anyways, how much to get snipped?

The main thing I want to cook is Dahl, wondering if the ingredients are hard to find.

All this information is fantastic. Nevertheless I am still back at square one as far as finding a Arahant monk goes. Maybe ill try asking the abbot at the local temple, fingers crossed.

where is the button to edit your own posts? i had a quick look, did a quick search, nothing obvious came up. What am I missing?

:-) ok on this forum I can edit, why not other forums?

From what I understand of an Arahant, the definition of a 1st level fully enlightened person (parinibbana) is one who has escaped the wheel of birth and rebirth. A bodhisattva is one who reaches this threshold (parinibbana) yet holds back in order to get rebirth and to teach & help others spiritually. So not having gone beyond this threshold to reach the place beyond birth and rebirth, the Theravadas at least would consider a Bodhisattva not *fully* enlightened, (disclaimer) I think.

Hi Grover,

I think this is a very common misunderstanding of the term "Bodhisattva". The Mahayanins are quite clear that a Bodhisattva seeks full enlightenment as quickly as possible, for the simple reason that only a fully enlightened being (a Buddha) has the capacity (i.e. omniscience) to fully liberate sentient beings.

Not to get into the fine distinctions between what the Pali and the Mahayana say about the definition of Buddhahood here, but suffice it to say that a Buddha in both schools is qualified by the omniscience that fully understands dukkha and its origins and the path that leads to the end of dukkha, as well as perceives directly the kamma of all sentient beings, and is therefore in the very best position to help in liberating all beings. For this reason the aim in the Mahayana is to become a Buddha (an arahant minus the "obscurations to omniscience") as quickly as possible.

So in both the Tripitika and the Mahayana, it is "full speed ahead" with regards to awakening.

To underscore this point, there is a Tibetan parable of "eating the meat first."

It is a deep Tibetan winter, and there is a starving family, and there is only enough meat for one person to survive outside, that if one person eats the meat, there is a hope to save the family by going out and foraging for more food. The point is to "eat the meat first" and be the one to take the energy to go out, find more food, and thus save the entire family. This parable is often used to describe the importance of seeking awakening first, since only the awakened mind has the power to help liberate all sentient beings.

Ok, maybe ive made some misunderstanding, but is it true a Bodhisattva is not free from the wheel of rebirth? This is an important distinguishing factor in Theravada for determining the level of enlightement.

Most Mahayanists will assert the bodhisattva is 'fully enlightened,' but this may not be representative of the original ideas. As all outgrowths of Buddhism have their original base in Pali, any ambiguity in Pali terms could be purportred to extend thereto. Parinibbana, when in the form of the past participle is parinibbuta, which is seen in the Tipitaka to refer to a broad range of things-- from the enlightenment of the Arahant or Buddha, to a more common meaning of tranquility, or even to the taming of a horse. Additionally, the term 'satta' in Pali has 3 possible analogs in Mahayanist Sanskrit (due to the larger alphabet of Sanskrit)-- it can mean 'seven', 'aspiring to', or 'being.' Depending on the translation to Sanskrit, a bodhisattva can thus be one who is 'being/having bodhi', or one who is 'aspiring to bodhi'-- hence we see two interperetations existing side by side in Mahayana. Of course, I guess he could also be 'bodhi 7' but that doesn't really work, unless its like a superhero team or something.

From what I understand of an Arahant, the definition of a 1st level fully enlightened person (parinibbana) is one who has escaped the wheel of birth and rebirth. A bodhisattva is one who reaches this threshold (parinibbana) yet holds back in order to get rebirth and to teach & help others spiritually. So not having gone beyond this threshold to reach the place beyond birth and rebirth, the Theravadas at least would consider a Bodhisattva not *fully* enlightened, (disclaimer) I think.

I wonder how that works - when you meet an elevated person, they seem to spread their peace/wisdom/kniowledge and serenity?

It might be the same thing as when you hang around a negative person for 3 months, he or she drags you down to their level. When you hang around an energetic optimistic person some of this energy rubs off onto you.

It is written in the Suttas that many people became arahants shortly after meeting the Budda, sometimes it was just a word that triggered a spontaneous enlightenment. I am not sure exactly how this works but the presence of an Arahant must act as a catalyst, the student percieving or absorbing something on a level different to the 5 senses.

The Royal Thai Immigration website says nothing about a 'monk-to-be' visa, and I never heard of such a visa. Perhaps the non-immigrant O ('0' = 'other') can be issued for this purpose.

hmmm... if I remember correctly, the Non-I religious visa is for Monks, Mai-chees, novices & pak-kaows. Immigration doesnt care so much which one of these you are, what they really want, along with the usual fee and non-im form is the letter from the Department of Religious Affairs (GROM SASANA) at Puttamonton & a letter from the Abbot of the temple. There is a little green booklet in Thai that is issued by The Department of Religous affairs that covers all the visa requirements for all permutations of non-I religious in detail.

You can reasonably expect to 'pay' anything up to $1000 for ordination. There is one temple in BKK that ordains movie stars, high government officials, other important people, & they would most probably be donating much more than $1000. A 'rich' & prestigous temple might expect 25000 baht or more. Some 'farang' temples might be 'free' but they will expect a 5 year hardcore commitment.

Without a sum of money to donate, ordination options become more and more limited.

Ok I understand that Arahant monks won't proclaim it, & to truely know if he is an Arahant you have to be an Arahant also...

But surely fully enlightened monks would radiate an aura of peacefullness & compassion & love etc, everything they say or do would be an amazing thing to witness. Surely normal people could detect this advanced spiritual development in some way on some level.

This is a long shot, but has anyone ever met such a monk? I'm asking because I want to meet one. He doesnt have to speak english. Thanks!

What a relief knowing I won't have to pay it. Well, what if no one decides to sponsor me? What if I don't have the money to make a donation?

My parents have been divorced since I was two. I have no contact with my father. My mother has given me her permission. But she won't give me money. I am currently making a web site (I'm a web designer) so I hope I will earn enough to pay everything that's needed. I calculated 1300 Euro all in all. I currently have 990 Euro.

If your parents are divorced you should just need a letter from one of them, the 'legal guardian'.

About the money situation, I caution against turning up to the temple with nothing in your pockets. Sounds adventurous but can lead to sticky situations. Its nice to make some donations as a lay person before becoming a monk, you'll need some money for the visa if the temple doesn't organise it. (there is no merit for paying for visas as far as I know).

Thanks again for the invaluable information you are all giving me.

A well known temple can cost between 10000-20000 baht for ordination.

Could the price be higher? It seems like a lot of money to me - 20 000 baht = 420 Euro

Where can I find a list of English-speaking monasteries?

It is not actually a price, it is a donation. And if you are special, famous, a farang, etc, they may expect a little more. And yes, it is a considerable amount. Nevertheless it is not you usually pays, it is a lay supporter. The lay supporter is supposed to gain lots of merit from supporting your ordination. Actually, you should not have to pay anything - its best if you or the temple can arrange a lay supporter to make the donation. I'm not 100% sure, but a farang-thai temple should take care of all this. An option could be to hang around the temple in white clothes, learning your ordination chants etc, making your good intentions know, etc, until a rich sponser sees you and decides to get some merit by sponsering you... this way is best for all concerned in terms of 'karmic merit'. If you can get your parents to pay, this would be another excellent option, because it is what the Thais do.

By the way, do you have permission from your parents? You might need a letter from them giving their permission.

Has anyone actually met a fully enlightened monk in Thailand? I'm asking because I would like to meet one. I believe there must be at least a handful somewhere in Thailand, living in the forests somewhere.

How much money will I need for the ordination and the whole stay at the monastery? I thought it was all free?

When Thais become monks the parents or another lay sponser usually has to pay for the ordination. A well known temple can cost between 10000-20000 baht for ordination. Smaller, quieter temples should cost less.

As for the stay, food and accomodation is free. You may have to pay your own electricity costs... All this depends on the temple. The info I have given really is based on my own observations, different temples do things differently.

He never stops posturing does he. Ordinarily his resignation from the TRT would be viewed as a good thing by his detractors, but now it looks like he is just trying to beat the 5 year ban. Why would this be important to him?

because all the TRT members are his buddies... economic and political allies. by resigning, he gives them a chance to survive, and potentially re-form his team at a later date, or at least what power they'll still have in thailand to his advantage.

pure evil.

If you can not afford a round trip ticket I suggest that you reconsider if you have enough resources in the event that things don't go as smoothly as planned. As a monk you may have to buy soap and toothpaste etc. but I'm not sure. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm only suggesting considering what the possible eventualities might be.

Chownah

He's right - if your coming without extra money up your sleeve (carry a card, dont carry cash!), it may not go smoothly. When you get ordained its going to cost you, your temple, or your lay sponser quite a bit of money for the ceremony. If your temple wont pay (normally they dont) and you dont have a lay sponser (thai parents normally are the sponser) then you may have to pay. What about your visa costs? Just some ideas to think about.

Depends what temple you ordain with. Some temples organise everything for you (the farang temples), with other temples it is 100% your responsibility. So, if this is the case (a 'real' Thai temple) I highly recommend getting a letter of sponsorship & visa beforehand. This small investment in time could save hours and days and months of running around in bkk getting signatures from high level monks, going to other various places for signatures and other expensive and gumption depleting activities.

I've listened to quite a number of Ajahn Brams talks, and they are very good. I have also been told by an experienced western monk that he is an 'advanced meditator'. I took that to mean he has reached 'sotopana' stage (first stage of enlightenment). Anyway, he is a wise and entertaining monk (!?) & I recommend his talks. There is a bit of ego in there (ie. he laughs at his own jokes a little too much) but this is just a small thing.

Sonti Limtongkun did a fine job in raising Thai people's awareness of Thaksin's misdeeds.

He may have been over the top at times but he was a brave man who used the little media available to him to fine effect.

I do not think any of his former (unpaid) employees would agree with you. He went against Thaksin only after they fell out over business interests. A lot of things he came out with were/are complete crap. He is no better than the TRT posse, all out for themselves in my opinion.

Sondhi may have had mixed motives, but he basically put his life on the line opposing Thaksin. He very well may have ended up dead for his actions. Ask yourself ... would Sondi really put his life at risk for business gain? Doesnt add up or tell the full story. The way I see it, he was brave, and although his motives *may* have been mixed, it appears overwhelmingly to be a motive other than cold hard business advantage.

It seems all of you are forgetting that Thaksin was elected by the people of Thailand....perhaps by a flawed system but none the less by Thailands version of a democratic vote.

Well, I guess the critical word here is "flawed". How "flawed" does a democratic system need to be before it is no longer considered democratic? Say for example, if media was muzzled, checks & balances systems essentially non-functioning and serving the TRT party, widespread shameless corruption, the list goes on and on, ect, then would "Thailands version of a democratic vote" you describe really be "democratic"? Sounds awfully awfully twisted form of democracy to me, almost a complete joke. Gives democracy a bad name IMHO.

So what I am trying to say is that it is all good and well to defend democracy, but LOS under Thaksin never smelt like a real democracy to me. Didn't even come close.

Fine, but which country DOES smell like a real democracy to you? I don't know of any.

The ones that doen't smell rotten

It seems all of you are forgetting that Thaksin was elected by the people of Thailand....perhaps by a flawed system but none the less by Thailands version of a democratic vote.

Well, I guess the critical word here is "flawed". How "flawed" does a democratic system need to be before it is no longer considered democratic? Say for example, if media was muzzled, checks & balances systems essentially non-functioning and serving the TRT party, widespread shameless corruption, the list goes on and on, ect, then would "Thailands version of a democratic vote" you describe really be "democratic"? Sounds awfully awfully twisted form of democracy to me, almost a complete joke. Gives democracy a bad name IMHO.

So what I am trying to say is that it is all good and well to defend democracy, but LOS under Thaksin never smelt like a real democracy to me. Didn't even come close.

My pic of him leaving Gatwick today...

It is copyrighted....

Thats a forced smile if I ever saw one. I wonder whats underneath the smile? Mai pen rai na, mai pen rai...

the whistling one is a bit suspect too....

"me? corrupt? never."

My pic of him leaving Gatwick today...

It is copyrighted....

Thats a forced smile if I ever saw one. I wonder whats underneath the smile? Mai pen rai na, mai pen rai...

Ok, they (school officials) are telling me that there's a new law that makes it possible for someone (with a contract and a letter from the school) to get a non immigrant B visa directly at immigration in bkk without having to go to Penang first.. but in order to do that i need at least 21 days left on my 30 days 'stamp visa' ..anyone heard of that?

You can change visas from tourist to non-imm at immigration, I did it about Jan last year. There is a special room upstairs for this process (room 301? or 201? or something like this). Yes you need lots of days left on your tourist visa because they take a few weeks to process it. I had to extend my tourist visa downstairs first. I recall a big tense guy behind the desk who was quite strict, requiring all the documents correctly worded etc.