Morch

Was at Pantip a couple of days ago. Didn't see too many red shirts around.

It's a few minutes walk from Pantip (passing Platinum) to Pratunam junction.

Would probably be there again tomorrow or day after.

Traffic and parking was pretty much as usual.

According to a friend of my wife who works at CAT, the red shirt mob already "brought him back".

I'm watching channel 9 and just saw the Red fighters' wounded with their RUBBER BULLET "wounds" which are little red circular bruises (tomorrow they will be bigger purple bruises) acting like they are dying and being rushed to the hospital in great dramatic fashion. We can predict the Red leaders will be talking about police and military brutality using the numbers of people shot to illustrate their propaganda .... and probably some reporters or wire services will pick it up. THis is how the truth gets skewed ... and Thaksin's PR machine is masterful at this.

Just to clarify - "rubber bullet" is a bit misleading. It's basically metal coated by rubber, not rubber-only. Shot at close range, at vital organs etc. - can easily cause lethal wounds, even instant death.

Most of the wounds shown on TV reports today were indeed of the mild sort. However, soldiers were shooting indiscriminately and at close range, so some serious injuries are to be expected. Usually there a short special training involved before being authorized to shoot those, doubt if a lot of the soldiers had it.

BTW, there are two separate reports of dead/fatally injured demonstrators (one shot in the gut, the other clubbed).

SOME rubber bullets are metal coated by rubber and these have been made infamous by the Israeli defense forces. But also SOME rubber bullets are rubber only. There are also rubber 'baton' rounds that are often called rubber bullets. And yes of course they can be lethal at close range (like less than 12 feet). The point is they are not normally considered lethal.

I think to clarify exactly what kind of rubber bullets the Thai military and police are using we should get one and take a look at it. Do you agree?

Lots of international controversy about rubber bullets and also lots of protests against their usage but mainly because some police forces use them against unarmed civilians in peaceful protests. This was not the case today as is easy to see from the video.

I did not witness the shootings tonight. But this afternoon I did not see Thai soldiers firing at protestors at close range. If you look at the video you won't see this either. But if someone was trying to stab me in the neck with a bamboo spear, I may lose control and shoot my rubber bullet at them despite their being closer than 12 feet. But again I did not see that. Those soldiers and military who were in the front lines were mostly unarmed. THose shooting the rubber bullets were not in the front lines in those hand to hand struggles with the protestors. I don't believe that there will be ANY lethal injuries from rubber bullets in the confrontations that happened today. If there are lethal injuries they will be from real copper and lead bullets.

Those with head injuries were obviously hit by police/military batons (clubs) which means they were within arms reach of the military/police lines when they were pushing and shoving and swinging at each other ... and well ... what do they expect? I guess better to be hit on the head with a baton that shot with a rubber bullet at that close range (and I don't believe any were).

As far as I recall the ones they used in the past (for example, on PAD demonstrators) were of the nastier sort. Those cab be lethal at under 40-50 yards easy. Some of the shooting was at very close range, and quite a lot of it panicky and ineffective. Standard practice is to aim at lower body parts in order to minimize injuries - can't say a lot of that was evident.

As for soldiers losing control....yeah, well - they're not exactly the best trained or experienced. Getting into a situation where someone is in a position to impale you with a spear is definitely a problem.

From the footage I've seen on TV indeed not all soldiers were armed (would guess mostly NCOs and officers). For sure, some were also carrying "hot" weapons (not just rubber). Wouldn't be surprised if we found out some messed up. But still, rubber bullets can do some bad things to the human body, and they were all over the place today. So no big surprises there as well.

At the end, don't think it matters much to the wounded....

I'm watching channel 9 and just saw the Red fighters' wounded with their RUBBER BULLET "wounds" which are little red circular bruises (tomorrow they will be bigger purple bruises) acting like they are dying and being rushed to the hospital in great dramatic fashion. We can predict the Red leaders will be talking about police and military brutality using the numbers of people shot to illustrate their propaganda .... and probably some reporters or wire services will pick it up. THis is how the truth gets skewed ... and Thaksin's PR machine is masterful at this.

Just to clarify - "rubber bullet" is a bit misleading. It's basically metal coated by rubber, not rubber-only. Shot at close range, at vital organs etc. - can easily cause lethal wounds, even instant death.

Most of the wounds shown on TV reports today were indeed of the mild sort. However, soldiers were shooting indiscriminately and at close range, so some serious injuries are to be expected. Usually there a short special training involved before being authorized to shoot those, doubt if a lot of the soldiers had it.

BTW, there are two separate reports of dead/fatally injured demonstrators (one shot in the gut, the other clubbed).

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

Do you not think w2mc that their incompetence was a result of not being given clear and decisive directions from the top? That was my reading.

Probably.

I seriously doubt it.

Not the "not being given clear and decisive directions from the top" part. That's probably accurate.

But the level of incompetence shown today was more due to bad training and lack of experience in such situations.

Shooting tear gas against the wind, breaking formation while trying to run a mob, indiscriminate massive shooting of rubber bullets (the list goes on...) are good indicators.

Given the numbers in the morning, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect both demonstration sites to be clear by now. That's with taking into account the level of force armed forces were allowed to use.

About that - restraint is good as long as the armed forces are seen as stronger. The minute this illusion is broken, restraint has a nasty habit of actually making things worse. Now that the security forces bluff was called, the demonstrates seem more confident and ready to take them on. This in turn will lead to either things spinning out of control or to a decisive play by the military. Not good. Perhaps a firmer hand at the out set of today's (yesterday at ThaiCom as well) action would have made the difference.

YouTube - Blood Kid

It's not funny...

Sorry, stuck in my head the whole day.

It's because of responses like Loaded's I hope the army have the sense to remain cool.

I didn't read Loaded's response.....but why should the army remain cool? I think this is the perfect opportunity for the army to show some spine and venture out. An army unit was just fired upon.....any other time or place, in any country, and the neighbourhood would have been locked down and the perps tracked down and killed. Justifiably so.

Imagine if a grenade had been fired into an Israeli barracks while Palestinians protested outside.

If the shooter was a Palestinian, sure, they'd go medieval on his etc.

But in situation where the protesters are Israeli, security forces are usually restrained (well, strike that if we're talking about Arab Israeli citizens, but that's a whole different issue).

Point is these are people of the same nation here, probably quite a few from the same provinces.

Your racial discrimination, or seeming condoning of it, is a whole diferent subject that should not divert from the thread.

My analogy was about enemies of the state that fire upon the army.

I think you misunderstood my meaning. Wasn't condoning this state of affairs, just telling it as it is.

What I'm saying is that citizens, even while rioting, do not automatically become "enemies of the state".

Rather doubt most of the people out there had any idea this was coming up and don't think they'd go for it if asked first.

Having the army go at them is foolishness.

It's because of responses like Loaded's I hope the army have the sense to remain cool.

I didn't read Loaded's response.....but why should the army remain cool? I think this is the perfect opportunity for the army to show some spine and venture out. An army unit was just fired upon.....any other time or place, in any country, and the neighbourhood would have been locked down and the perps tracked down and killed. Justifiably so.

Imagine if a grenade had been fired into an Israeli barracks while Palestinians protested outside.

If the shooter was a Palestinian, sure, they'd go medieval on his etc.

But in situation where the protesters are Israeli, security forces are usually restrained (well, strike that if we're talking about Arab Israeli citizens, but that's a whole different issue).

Point is these are people of the same nation here, probably quite a few from the same provinces.

There's a good chance of something going down, before and after, sure.

But more in the way of organized/planned actions in hope of lighting the flames.

Can't guess how far these will go, but not very worried.

You need money and a goal to motivate masses. While Mr. T has himself a nice stash regardless of the outcome, he'll certainly come out looking as the loosing end (if indeed the court takes away the frozen assets) - not sure people would queue to support him. At least not to the extent of getting on a bus somewhere and messing with armed forces.

Also, somewhat doubt that the generals are all that keen to take direct charge of the country. Perhaps brokering a new deal for themselves with whomever is more feasible.

Of course, regardless of what I think, wife announced we're going shopping (read stocking up)...

As for the M-79: It's been a while, but if memory serves the effective/accurate range is somewhat less than advertised. Under stressful conditions/in motion, getting a clear accurate shot at a distant target isn't all that easy, so 50 meters off mark at maximum range from a back of a vehicle while trying to hide is reasonable). Those things aren't exactly designed to hit small targets, more of an area effect.

Water cannons - are indeed sometimes used to diffuse bombs, either making the charge malfunction by dousing it with copious amounts of water or causing it to explode. A ex-bomb disposal guy told me the first option was uber-hated, since you have to check them anyway afterwards, and then the moisture adds yet another risk factor. Can't say if it's a good procedure, but seen it done a couple of times.

The above is relevant if assuming all this is "real", of course. TIT, therefore one can't be sure. Too many players out there (red shirts, government, army), with some factions within them to add to the confusion. Access to weapons, ammo and explosives is a laugh in this country, and getting someone to carry it out isn't a big deal as well.

Was it red shirts sending a message? Perhaps. Was it the government or army trying to hype anxiety & stress for their own ends? Maybe. Don't think we'll know for sure, and don't see how this really matters to most of us.

The problem doesn't lie with whodoneit, but rather with a social/political climate that allows these sort of things.

Having my 40th birthday, so perhaps a convertible/chopper are more appropriate to get the midlife crisis over with?

The previous model was a CVT transmission, which is also essentially semi-automatic, but a pretty good one (although somewhat more expensive & supposedly some long term maintenance issues). The new transmission is indeed called "auto" in Thailand, but it also comes with those pedal shifts etc, which makes me wonder: aren't these a semi-auto feature only?

Hello,

We want to buy a car: small (staying in Bangkok for the near future, wife a new driver), automatic (re new driver), inexpensive (read local made Japanese), decent service around the country (at least in theory).

That narrowed it down to the Honda Jazz/City, Toyota Yaris/Vios, Mazda 2 territory (wife wanted the Suzuki Swift but their presence outside of Bangkok seems dismal). We don't care all that much for sport performance, coolness factor etc, more with reliability and practicality.

Toyota took a beating (at least where I come from) over the semi-auto gearbox, so wasn't keen on them, which left the Mazda and the Hondas. Took the Mazda for a ride, and it's indeed a fun car to drive, perhaps a bit too much fun for a new over-cautious driver - responds very willingly to gas and maneuvering. It's also a bit drab when it comes to the interior (even withing the low standards of this class), and naturally cannot compete with the ample space offered by the Jazz.

I know the older model of the Jazz, and it seemed like a better all-around choice, but then realized the New Jazz (and City) came with a new transmission, which as far as I can tell is basically pretty much the same as Toyota's (ie semi-auto, with all that implies). That put a bit of a damper on things, and got us thinking again (the Mazda 2 is full auto).

To be clear: we're talking about the top (or just bellow) version of each model. Price, financing terms and delivery times are similar (didn't get around to freebies, but it's not all that important).

So....is the New Honda transmission what I fear it is? (reading on the net it seems people aren't that happy).

Having thoughts about upping it a little and aiming at Mazda 3 or Ford Focus, but don't know much about them yet.

Any ideas and thoughts will be welcome.

There is quite a bit of video footage from a variety of sources of numerous people suffering severe burns or large lacerations (including the traumatic amputation of a leg posted earlier). These don't seem entirely consistent with the use of "tear-gas."

Shooting AT someone would do that and worse.

Got reports that there were "Glass-bombs (or granates)" used by the police. I don't know what this means. Others tell about glass at/in/with the tear gas.

Several times I read about injuries with glass.

Any ideas what that might mean?

I had assumed some non-native speaker (English) had misspelled "gas bombs" as is so easily and often done on this forum (e.g. "granates" for "grenades.")

Probably shouldn't speculate so as not to feed the rumor-mill until someone with some expertise or experience can provide technical input. (Morch, can you help us again?)

Wouldn't call myself an expert...as with cars, I just drive the dam_n things :-).

Sub-standard munitions, even tear gas canisters/grenades might explode in silly ways, yes. Glass? no.

As far as I understand this report is from ASTV, which means it might be inaccurate, exaggerated or panic induced by the police attack. Anyway, they are talking about two separate things: Tear gas & the so called "glass bomb" - what the second one might be I can't say with my poor command of the Thai language.

I was referring to children presence at demonstrations in general. As far as I'm aware most PAD that come with they're offspring don't stay the night (maybe different on weekends). Doesn't make it ok as far as I'm concerned, just a tad better.

The point was that the police were also aware of this possibility and still acted as they did.

I nearly never comment here (sometimes I think I should, but then laziness & the risk of getting entangled in yet another forum kick in), but I also read most of what's important for me.

Wanted to point out, as an ex-soldier who to his shame had had some experience with crowd dispersal and use of tear gas, that you need to be either untrained/incompetent, using substandard equipment (usually that means old, but not always), or have a combo of a very bad day & nasty attitude in order to physically hurt someone that way. I shot *quite* a few of those in my day - don't recall ever hurting someone directly (well, if you don't count the tear gas itself).

Not going to get into "they're right/they're wrong" sort of thing. Yes, Bringing children to demonstrations is wrong, both for safety and brain washing reasons. My wife endeavors to explain to me that in "Thailand it's different", and ok...children here do seem unrepeatable from their parents, but I'm not convinced. Yes, the use of deadly force against otherwise non-life-threatening civilians is wrong as well (I've also been on that side of the fence, sometimes with a couple of days in between). It's not as if the police are not aware who are the protesters. The "if-they-wouldn't-be-there-they-wouldn't-get-hurt" reasoning is a bad one: The burden of responsibility almost always the stronger side's, and may I add that people advocating that reasoning ought to get their driver permit revoked as well .

Ummm...that's about it. Re-activate lurker mode I guess.

We're having some reoccurring problems with both our PCs. Rattling sounds for the HD, noisy fan action, "disappearing" drives on the XP, LAN MIA as well most of the time. All of these come and go at their pleasure. Over the last few months changed MB (which did solve some of the problems for a while), last week changed the power supply thingie (ironically dubbed "the silencer") - got more noise, and the impression that the power supply wasn't all that smooth (noise level varies).

Had enough of running down to "our" shop at Panthip, only to find a bit later on that something is wrong. Don't suppose all that moving around does much good to the comps as well. As I'm not what you'd call technically inclined (yeah, I know...ought to sit down and learn some stuff), I was hoping for some advice and/or recommendations regarding computer repair services that do home visits (in Bangkok).

Thanks, and sorry if this isn't the right place for this post.

Where does one go? Any Ideas?

Looking for a laid back place with nice atmosphere

I already mentioned in the previous thread that Melbourne was also no problem for me last week. No mention was made regarding money. Marriage certificate = Thai wife = visa and permission to live with her. Just as it should be.

At the moment. Who knows what happens tomorrow.

Had the same experience back home (Israel) last month.

Came Back from Lao just over a week ago.

Despite statements to the contrary, some runways were clearly flooded. Waited for about 25 minutes on the plane for the bus, then the luggage came out...well, mine did, being the first. The rest got jammed or something.

Thought I had it lucky, braved my way through the packed arrivals area only to find a 120+ line waiting for a taxi (had time to count ).

The drive to Bangkok took more then the flight itself...