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Morch
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Posts posted by Morch
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9 hours ago, dexterm said:
Glad you at least quoted my post in full for a change, so that forum members can see how economcal with the truth you are.
Avert your eyes just a few inches up the screen
Morch writes...
That you cannot or will not address the simple fact that Trump's announcement does include a clear reference to caveats regarding the final status issue, or that the announcement does not have any actual immediate effects, doesn't change facts.Which is precisely what I wrote..
"Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, even though he allows himself some wriggle room by saying nothing's changed; we don't recognize any final borders in Jerusalem yet."So how is what I wrote different from you? I think it is you who is confused, and is clearly misrepresenting and obsessively stalking me.
I suggest you read the OP again
"We are one palestinian christians and muslims unite against Trumps Jerusalem call"Which is precisely what I wrote about.
Looks like its just you and I who noticed Trump's caveats (I called it wriggle room). Even the BBC has focused on Trump's dog whistle recognition in line with Netanyahu's vision for Jerusalem.
"Violence has soared since Mr Trump's declaration on the contested city.
Israel regards the whole of Jerusalem as its indivisible capital, while Palestinians claim the eastern sector as the capital of a future state.
Mr Trump's affirmation of the Israeli position was condemned across the Arab and Muslim world, and hailed in Israel."Spare me your nonsense (fat chance...).
That you dismiss the actual content and words of Trump's announcement, quick to term things that do not align with your views as "wriggle room", while engaging in a deluge of interpretations based on...well, nothing much, is pretty much what I was referring to. Spin it all you like. You do not actually address these points, you dismiss them - not quite the same thing. And you cannot (or will not) address them, because they do not fit the narrative pushed, nor do they provide nearly enough fuel for your bile.
The OP deals with supposed solidarity between Christian and Muslim Palestinians, in connection with Trump's announcement. I fail to see anything which directly relates to relations between the two faiths in your posts, which instead focus on biased and factually incorrect interpretations of other issues. Spin this one as well, won't make your posts "precisely" on topic and not change the fact that you use the topic to highlight other issues.
The BBC link provided does not deal with Christian and Muslim relations in this context, as well.
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12 minutes ago, DaddyWarbucks said:
The absurd contention that Palestine never existed is the central lie at the heart of Zionism.
That, along with the ridiculous claim that Judea was a gift of God to the Jews is the excuse and justification for the displacement of the indigenous population and the ongoing expansion of Eretz Israel.
The UN partition plan, which was accepted by one of them sides, did acknowledge two states and two people. Why the need to post lies?
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8 hours ago, dexterm said:
I think you have a somewhat elastic relationship with the truth.
The Palestinians have a problem with Zionism not Judaism.
I have fed the trolls enough tonight. Goodbye.
Many a Palestinian leader engaged in expressing outright anti-Semitic views, sentiment and conspiracy theories. Quite easy to find if one isn't actively trying to ignore them. The same goes for Palestinian media and education system. Much more so in Arabic, compared to English. These are facts, as much as they are inconvenient, or do not fit the image you are trying to market.
Without even going for the supposed hardcore element, here are a couple of Abbas himself (disregarding his infamous doctoral thesis):
Abbas Repeats Debunked Claim That Rabbis Called to Poison Palestinian Water in Brussels Speech
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.726657And here's one taken from his speech mentioned in the OP:
Palestinian President Accuses Jews of ‘Counterfeiting History and Religion,’ Claims Qur’an Says They ‘Fabricate Truth’
Abbas’s Anti-Semitism Is a Roadblock Toward Peace in Israel
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8 hours ago, dexterm said:
Well last time I looked it was Abbas head of the Palestinian Authority in attendance this week at the conference in Istanbul. Maybe you are confused.
Keep up to speed. Your Zionist apologist manual is out of date.
"Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders"https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders
The new document states that Hamas is not seeking war with the Jewish people - only with the racist supremacist ideology of Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.
Abbas's official term in office ended years ago. Last elections were held 2005. In terms of popular support and approval ratings, Abbas doesn't score high, and things been that way for a long while now. Guess you look at what you want to look, when it suits.
As for your intentionally misleading presentation of Hamas views - even the link provided includes this "Hamas advocates the liberation of all of Palestine but is ready to support the state on 1967 borders without recognising Israel or ceding any rights". Not quite what you advertise - Hamas is "wiling" to consider accepting a tactical improvement of situation vs. Israel. Nothing more.
If that's not good enough, here's more:
We Will Wipe Out Israel, Not Disarm, Says Hamas Leader in Gaza
http://www.newsweek.com/hamas-gaza-leader-we-will-wipe-out-israel-not-disarm-689585
And the latest addition:
Quote"...No superpower is capable of offering Jerusalem to Israel, there is no Israel that it should have a capital named Jerusalem...
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9 hours ago, dexterm said:
I guess you conveniently missed a link to your racist fantasy.
Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist more than 20 years ago. They are still waiting for Israel to reciprocate.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html
The one who ignores facts or even denies them is you.
The facts are that the Palestinian follow up and adherence to the letter were not quite what you claim. Even after the Clinton bending their arm some, there were (and there are) ongoing contradictory statements and dragging of feet with anything that had to do with this. Arafat himself, and other Palestinian leaders spoke differently in-front of Palestinian or Arab supporters. Deny it all your will, ignore it all you will - doesn't change facts or make your misleading presentation correct. This issue (like all the ones your repetitive bring up) was addressed many a times in the past.
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9 hours ago, canuckamuck said:
Not so much of a supporter as a guy who approves of fighting the fight that he is fighting
If Trump was a fighter (and he's not) his battle cry would have been Trump First.
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2 hours ago, craigt3365 said:
Please don't post inaccurate information. North Korea has been threatening the U.S. and it's neighbors for a very long time.
And they've never listened. Why? They are dictators and are afraid of being overthrown.
A war represents economic and political uncertainty. I think that PRC leadership places a high value on maintaining stability and control above many other considerations. Doubt he worries about democracy per se, but more about the emergence of conditions which might foster popular unrest.
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On 12/14/2017 at 5:17 AM, steven2018 said:
When Trump leaves office he will probably write a book telling how abused and victimized he was, and it will sell to his core group.
Posted from Android using Tapatalk
He might hire someone to ghostwrite it, then stick his name on the cover.
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5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:
Good response.
The great mystery is why people of Europe and America thought they actually had a right to dispossess certain landowners in favour of other people with only the claim that they used to live somewhere thousands of years ago. Would anyone now put up with that nonsense?
Thankfully it appears to be the last gasp of colonialism.
The other mystery is why anyone thinks "history" is a valid claim on land occupied by others. If that were a valid claim, I have a right to land in Africa ( as does every person on the planet ) due to ancestral occupation.
It is a "good response" if one buys into it. I don't. Can't recall posters (or rather, usual suspects) expressing as many objections and rejections with regard to supposed similar past sins of relevant Western powers elsewhere in the Middle East or even globally. The mystery, if anything, lies in the disproportional level of attention and emotion this specific conflict generates among some.
It is also a mystery (or not...) as to the same group of posters apparently having trouble accepting both present realities, or stop lamenting about a past (again, in a rather specific vein).
And a further observation would be that posters often insist on historical claims apply only to one party and/or insist on setting an arbitrary point in time, supposedly marking a line between the historical and the contemporary, to serve their own arguments. In some cases events 50, 100, 1000 or more are "relevant", in others they are dismissed.
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7 hours ago, dexterm said:
Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, even though he allows himself some wriggle room by saying nothing's changed; we don't recognize any final borders in Jerusalem yet.
Most Palestinians, and leaders in the Islamic world and globally, regard this as Trump dog whistle code for taking Israel's side. Hence the OP furore. And so does Netanyahu, because he heartily supports Trump's call.
From previous speeches, but very craftily not in his response to this Trump's announcement, Netanyahu has called for Palestinian recognition of Jerusalem as the eternal and undivided capital of a Jewish state.
So simple...some quality journalist should ask Netanyahu to restate what he thinks recognition of Jerusalem means to him and what he thinks Trump means, and why he endorses Trump's move.
So that we are all on the same page.
So the "reasoning" for the faulty "argument" presented previously is basically that Trump made his statement, therefore you will use it to bring up whatever semi-related issue on whatever semi-related topic. Nothing more. As pointed out, it seems that for some, these topics exist just as a handy platform to air repetitive extreme political agendas.
The topic, unless you missed it is about supposed solidarity between Palestinian Christians and Muslims. And not, what a surprise, about demands for recognition of Israel as a Jewish state or your misrepresentations of such.
That you cannot or will not address the simple fact that Trump's announcement does include a clear reference to caveats regarding the final status issue, or that the announcement does not have any actual immediate effects, doesn't change facts.
You either don't care which in which topic you toss your bile, or get confused between different OPs. This one is not about what you go on about. And you have not even addressed the main theme of the OP to begin with....just the same endless stream of propaganda posts.
It's not a matter of being on the same page. It's about you contempt for staying on the page when it doesn't suit your pet agenda.
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7 hours ago, Thorgal said:
For Trump and you:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/timeline-for-the-history-of-jerusalem-4500-bce-present
Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile appI get that some posters are unable to grasp that not everyone rejecting their ongoing nonsense is necessarily a Trump supporter. It's also obvious some posters attempt to misrepresent things this way.
Spin it all you like, when it comes to history and historical connections, there is not a whole lot of competition here.
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7 hours ago, dexterm said:
You have never even defined what you think Zionism is though repeatedly asked to do so, let alone criticize it.
So don't repeatedly attempt to deflect by criticism of my support for the only ones being bullied by the only ones in Palestine with a powerful standing army.
Bottom line: Israel will never have a permanent peace until East Jerusalem is the Palestinian capital. So Netanyahu is wasting his breath.
The topic is not about definitions of Zionism. There are many instances in my posts which include criticism of certain aspects and actions related with Zionism and Zionists. That these do not amount to your own brand of mindless all encompassing hatred, is something which you always had trouble coming to terms with. So again - stop lying or make up better lies.
Pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards featuring in such posts as above is no deflection. If anything, going on about whichever semi-related topic, and whining when your posts are addressed is exactly such.
Israel will never have a permanent peace with the Palestinians, without a compromise, perhaps. But the same holds for the Palestinians themselves. That you choose to see even this in a one-sided manner is truly bizarre.
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5 minutes ago, dexterm said:
And you never criticize Zionism. So your point is?
The Palestinians are the ones who have had their holy city and lands stolen, not the other way around.
The Palestinians are the ones who have been invaded by mainly European colonizers and are being occupied, not the other way around.
For starters, that is patently untrue. If you have to lie, at least make the lying less inane. That I do not engage in your vehement, hate-filled style of posting does not make your comment any more factual or correct. Also, I don't usually go for hyperbolic wholesale wide-brush nonsense comments, possibly harder for some indulging in such to accept other modes of comment and criticism exist.
Give the "stolen" nonsense a rest. The Palestinians never "owned" Jerusalem. And your "colonial" rubbish is nothing more than further deflection.
Whining about one side using supposed historical and religious pretext as reasoning for taking the whole cake, but ignoring that the same style of reasoning exists with the other side as well is hypocritical and disingenuous. Your previous post pretended to make a general argument about such practices and views being unacceptable, the current one essentially says its alright for one of the sides. Them double standards again.
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3 minutes ago, dexterm said:
Dexterm wrote..
"Looks like talks are now stalled due to Trump's Jerusalem shenanigans, so hopefully some quality journalist can find time to hardtalk Netanyahu and ask him exactly what he means by a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital, and how that fits in with Palestinians' aspirations.
And hopefully he will reply with a lot less waffle than some posters on this forum."
Please tell me which words in my post are off topic and which words in your posts are on topic.
Seems to me you are stalking, always a personal flame and in response to my posts repeatedly writing the meaningless "spin" because you have some weird obsession always to get the last word in.
Lets try again. Essentially your "argument" is:
1. Talks stalked due to Trump's Jerusalem "shenanigans"...
...hence (?)
2. Journalists should ask Netanyahu what a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital means, in relation to Palestinian views.
There is nothing which suggests how the latter logically stems from the former.
The topic is about "Israel as a Jewish state", this angle was introduced by yourself - and in a misleading manner, which was addressed.
Commenting on your posts is not "stalking", even when it exposes the fallacies and inaccuracies they contain. "Spin" would be a polite term for the ongoing attempts to make topics a platform for a pet political agenda, rather than actually discussing the OP's themselves. The "last word in" nonsense is amusing - almost like complaining about not letting you having the "last word in".
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39 minutes ago, dexterm said:
We are not living in the age of Attila the Hun, Ghengis Khan, or a John Wayne western. In the 21st Century most sane people live under International Law and the Geneva Convention, where you are not allowed to conquer others' land and keep it. Otherwise every powerful nation in the world would be at it, and we'd have anarchy.
But Israel and you seem to think you are exempt from such laws.
Besides that, the bottom line is although the Palestinians have not yet achieved a state in permanent peace with its neighbors, neither have the Israelis. Forever looking over one's shoulder, sending another generation of your children to be brutalized in 3 years of military service is no way to live.
Not a whole lot of similar objections aired when Hamas or other extreme elements go on one of them "river to sea" things. Them double standards at work, again.
As for trying to compare Israel's situation to the non-existent Palestinian state - Israel does have long standing peace treaties with two of its neighbors. And relatively stable, if hostile, conditions with regard to the rest. Unofficial relations with other regional players, and of course, not a whole lot by way of your negative wishful thinking when it comes to international relations.
Not that you are suspected of caring much for Israelis' quality of life, but again - quite nonsensical without any realistic reference to the fact the this is the ME and not Western Europe we're dealing with.
As with many of your comments, there's little accounting for how Palestinian leadership decisions contribute to their own predicament and conditions, or how current diplomatic moves will be effective changing things.
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22 minutes ago, dexterm said:
Most people know that Judaism has a historical, biblical, and religious affinity with the Holy Land, but that doesn't mean that in every Palestinian household tonight Dad is saying: "Right Mom, kids, pack your bags. We're outa here...I've just read the Merneptah Stele of 1200 BCE"
That's how silly your argument sounds to me and Palestinians.
Because these Palestinians are real people living in 2017 not 1200 BCE. They don't like being prevented from reaching their family olive groves by segregation walls, or hassled and beaten up at checkpoints by swaggering pimply youths in IDF uniforms who can and have in the blink of an eye shoot them dead if they only think a Palestinian is reaching for a knife rather than his ID papers. Who, as is the case with 4.5 million Palestinians under illegal occupation, don't like applying often in vain to foreign occupiers of a different religion for a pass to worship at one of their holiest sites or to visit a sick relative in a Jerusalem hospital.
That's what is relevant in their daily lives, and it is only the resolution of these issues that will bring permanent peace to the Holy Land, not some inscription on an ancient rock pillar, except of course in the warped logic of some religious fanatic.
Milk it.
Not even a shred of this faux emotive narrative when Palestinians (or indeed, fellow Muslims) make overreaching claims, arguments and statements based on the basis of faulty historical accounts or religion. Them double standards at it again.
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9 hours ago, johnnyonesock said:
"For years Palestinians stonewall the "peace process" by refusing to ever acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state"
Palestinians can never agree to this demand to accept the Zionists’ state “right to exist”. To do so is effectively to claim that Israel had a “right” to take Arab land, while Arabs had no right to their own land. It is effectively to claim that Israel had a “right” to ethnically cleanse Palestine, while Arabs had no right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in their own homes, on their own land.
The constant use of the term “right to exist” in discourse today serves one specific purpose: It is designed to obfuscate the reality that it is the Jews that have denied the Arab right to self-determination, and not vice versa, and to otherwise attempt to legitimize Israeli crimes against the Palestinians, both historical and contemporary.
Perhaps you should avoid conflating between Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims (ah, no...no Muslims mentioned in a topic which does refer to Muslims), Zionists, Jews, Israelis.
Recognizing Israel's right to exist is not a general statement on all Arab lands, it is not even a general statement on all Palestinian lands. It does not imply blanket rights, it does not imply total loss of rights. The rest of the accopanying hyperbole doesn't come into it as well.
Framing things as being one-sided is both inaccurate and leads nowhere.
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20 hours ago, dexterm said:
Looks like talks are now stalled due to Trump's Jerusalem shenanigans, so hopefully some quality journalist can find time to hardtalk Netanyahu and ask him exactly what he means by a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital, and how that fits in with Palestinians' aspirations.
And hopefully he will reply with a lot less waffle than some posters on this forum.
If the talks stalled because of Trump's announcement, then questions should be asked to address that. Instead, what you offer are ongoing spins based on either false claims or a misunderstanding of facts. The "waffle" is more about going on about anything that fits the pet agenda rather than actually addressing facts or even the topic.
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8 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:
I wonder if the US embassy will be built before that Mexican wall? Maybe this is just more talk and no action from Donald the mouth.
Geezer
There was some groundwork done searching for possible locations, a bit after Trump was elected. Guess it was more dusting off older plans, and checking the status of relevant real estate owned/leased by the US or available on the market. Estimates based on how long it takes to set up US embassies in general, range between 2-4 years from the actual green light (which Trump's announcement is not). Doubt most US embassy personnel in Israel are thrilled about such a move.
So while it may not be as imaginary as the wall, it will take a long time to materialize, if at all. The time frame could mean that it would be up to the next president to make a final call.
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6 hours ago, KKr said:
Your verbose comment is highlighting the issue.
Apparently we indeed have different sources of information,
such as main stream Western news,
and 10 years of working next to displaced people,
and hence disagree.
Cheers!Yeah well, if you'd made your posts clearer, it wouldn't take that many words to address. As for having a superior take or understanding or related matter, looking at the posts above makes your comment laughable.
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9 hours ago, crankshaft said:
Why would Israel give anything back to the Arabs, whose stated goal is to wipe every last single Jew off the face of the earth. The Arabs lost the war that they started....land was taken by the victors and is now part of Israel....has happened all through out human history.
Hysterics and hyperbole aside, there are such things as laws and reality. In modern times, it is not automatically acceptable for the victor to keep hold of the land, nor subjugate the losing side. As a matter of practicality - there are about 2.5 million Palestinian living in the West bank, and about 300,000 Palestinians in Jerusalem. There is no reasonable argument which can do away with their presence.
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7 hours ago, Thorgal said:
Jewish reign and domination in Jerusalem was only 169 years throughout human history.
Regardless of your "in depth" historical pronunciations, doubt the sort of comparison implied favors the Palestinians in any way.
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12 hours ago, smotherb said:
Jerusalem has been and is now divided along religious lines, national lines are incidental.
Not really, unless you are somehow conflating between the Old City and Jerusalem in general. But even then, the "division" is not quite as rigid as some imagine.
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The sad thing is that Trump is almost bound to tweet back in kind. Thus pretty much affirming the editorial's point.
Turkey says world must recognise East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital
in World News
Posted
Do make up your mind which nonsense argument you're pushing.
If you wish to uphold the "sanctity" or the importance of adherence to the relevant UN resolution and partition plan, then the main party in the wrong would be the Arabs/Palestinians, who rejected it out of hand.
Similarly, not that many (or any) objections relating to the post-1948 occupation and annexation of Jerusalem and the West Bank by Jordan. Because, apparently, adhering to rules and conventions is something expected only of Israel.
The so-called "Turkish perspective", or Erdogan supposed dreams about bringing back the Ottoman Empire are irrelevant. There was no Palestinian state under the Ottomans, and Palestinians (if they even clearly defined themselves as such) were not the sovereign. There would have been no Turkish/Ottoman embassy in Jerusalem under these conditions.