hanuman1

Kudos to Abhisit for backing a referendum on constitutional change, even though the current constitution exists as a result of the threat of force during the last coup.

There was no threat of force, there was a referendum in which the people freely voted. Yes the military installed government at the time, did encourage people to vote yes, but in a manner little different from how any government would, and i'm sure no different from how this current government will be encouraging people, if and when they organise one.

No threat of force? I don't think those tanks, APC's and machine-gun toting soldiers where having a scheduled parade in BKK the day they seized control of the country. Such scenes may have been edifying for you, but most would understand them as a threat of force. Otherwise, why didn't the generals just drive up in their Mercs and BMWs? Maybe they didn't fancy paying for the petrol

Kudos to Abhisit for backing a referendum on constitutional change, even though the current constitution exists as a result of the threat of force during the last coup.

The more the people are brought into the political sphere, the more of a sense of ownership they have and the less resentment of political change. Seems like a relatively good way to promote peaceful outcomes.

Wasn't the current constitution voted on in a referendum as well?

If it was, I sit corrected.

Maybe they can sent them to Burma. The Burmese are releasing their political prisoners and Thailand is dealing with the absurd number of cases brought by the Abhisit government in lese majeste and other cases that affects freedom of speech. One prison will never be enough. Abhisit must be having wet dreams about a Thai style Guantanamo which he and Prayuth are going to fill after the next coup.

It seems that with all their complaints, the PTP aren't changing anything. 400 million baht to be spent on "monitoring the internet". No change to Article 112. Old men sentenced to 20 years jail for "sending SMSs".

Abhsits secretary didn't need to photograph the texts he received and inform the authorities. Knowing full well the conviction rate of Les Majeste cases, he knew that that the likeliehood of the person going away for a very long time was extremely high, which should have been troubling for him once the identity of the person involved was known. Which makes it all the more heinous that he hasn't expressed one iota of regret since. Incidentally the Les Majeste term of imprisonment is "only" 15 years. This guy got 20 years under Article 112 and the Junta introduced Computer Crimes act - Yea for Democracy, as the Anti government cheerleaders are (too) fond of saying.

"Regarding the ongoing debate on the pros and cons of amending Article 112 of the Penal Code, which is related to lese majeste, Chalerm said he believed this government was "smart enough to not amend the clause".

From the people who will fight to your death for democracy.

Being the peace-loving arbiter of political frictions that you are on these pages, I'm surprised you wouldn't welcome Chalerm's softly-softly approach on this issue.

Do you think that amending the clause would not lead to a certain amount of strife from, say, the army, who are the proclaimed protectors of the royals' dignity and quite possibly the driving force behind the government's inertia on the issue of LM?

It seems pretty straightforward to me. Change the clause and get the army's backs up. Who would want them to do that, apart from one-trick-pony government bashers?

Kudos to Abhisit for backing a referendum on constitutional change, even though the current constitution exists as a result of the threat of force during the last coup.

The more the people are brought into the political sphere, the more of a sense of ownership they have and the less resentment of political change. Seems like a relatively good way to promote peaceful outcomes.

Well, who knows, depending on what they discover about the temple shootings he might be one of them?

He has been identified as "one of them" red-shirt terrorists and sentenced accordingly. What else is there to discover?

Or are you saying he might be "one of them" criminals moved to a soft time prison because he was carrying out the orders of the current government? Do you consider firing an RPG at a revered temple a legitimate political statement?

I believe he meant that Abhisit may be joining them in the VIP prison for his alleged role in the killings.

A perfectly legitimate request from Abhisit, entirely in line with his role as opposition leader. The government would do well to remember that lack of transparency has become an election-deciding issue and would do well to release the details in a timely manner.

"election-deciding issue"? what planet are you from? Nobody with any real power has any illusions that such a naive idealistic idea has any place in Thai politics, including the Thai masses (not that they have any real power)

> In a democracy there should be no such thing as a political prisoner. You are either a convicted criminal, or you are not.

Yes that's true in a democracy. Please stay on topic.

Happy Christmas!!!!!

I'm trying to think of a word that means 'even less competent than utterly incompetent'. For that is what the government haters will be adding to the English lexicon next year should any flooding at all occur. Thinking hats on, boys

At least next year we'll know that sandbags are a complete waste of time for defending individual properties and constructing cheap temporary breeze-block wall defenses could be the way to go.

In related news, Phubet Khotbua, a repossession official, with Thammasirirat Law - was shot dead at 10.40pm on Thursday near the Prawetburirom Bridge in Bangkok's Suan Luang district.

The reason why that incident is related? Probably because it's in the same article. Good going, Nation hacks!

A perfectly legitimate request from Abhisit, entirely in line with his role as opposition leader. The government would do well to remember that lack of transparency has become an election-deciding issue and would do well to release the details in a timely manner.

To all those who think drug use is harmless recreation, my cousin started smoking weed when she was twelve, by the time she was fourteen she had progressed to harder drugs, by the time she was fifteen she was prostituing herself to pay for her habit. She has only recently broken out of the cycle, not becuase she succeeded in giving up, but because she is fortyfive and is suffering from drug induced dementia, she has plenty of friends and acquaintences who have lost thier lives because thier addiction, many of those were involved in crime, all the way from petty crime to murder and extortion in order to finance thier addictions, many have done jail time, some are dead and some are vegetables. You cannot call drug abuse recretion, it wrecks lives, the only ones who benifit are the mister bigs, many of the minor dealers are users, there are many victims of drug abuse, the line stars directly below the the people at the top of the supply chain and goes all the way down to the person who just got mugged, or whose house just got broken into, or the person whose drug debt was so big they were told to kill to pay the debt or die themselves. There is no such thing as recreational drug use, there is only drug abuse.

P.s. her drug of choice was weed, especially the strong hybrid varieties that are available now, some of which can be addictive.

I would suggest it is the fact that your cousin started smoking anything at all aged 12 that was the biggest clue to- and indicator of- her future problems, not that what she was smoking was weed.

Thaksin is a threat to the old school power elite. He is a threat to those who despise him, the fat cats that run the show out here. He has learned from them and wants a piece of the action. The threat is this, that once he returns will he stop helping himself and family gain fame, power and fortune and instead concentrate on the well being of the unfortunate lower classes of Thailand?

The threat is this, that once he returns will he stop helping himself and family gain fame, power and fortune and instead concentrate on the well being of the unfortunate lower classes of Thailand?

The pigs are fuelled and ready to fly.

It is possible that you are both right. Thaksin could return and improve the lives of the poor (according to the poor). At the same time, he could start removing obstacles to his continued leadership. Sounds a bit like 5-10 years ago, doesn't it?

The question is, if he continues/continued to do both, what will/would have happened? The answer can only be speculation.

I suppose it begs the question: Can there be a benign dictator? Human nature says no, but try telling that to millions upon millions of people in China, North Korea, Russia etc who would say yes.

They have known all along who was behind the theft and murders. Thaksin must know. Maybe now it's convenient to reveal the truth. Perhaps Thaksin wants to make himself loved by the rural folks by "solving" the case and enabling them to get jobs in Saudi Arabia again. It's amazing how quickly they found the key witness ... almost as if they knew his address all this time.

Ah Thaksin again, every single topic on here Thaksin get a mention. Some people are absolutely obsessed with Thaksin and he controls thier every thought. It gets just a tad tiring. Can we possibly have one topic where he is not mentioned and this must be bordering on trolling.

I don't think Thaksin's been blamed for the road crash which led to the deaths of 3 British tourists some months ago (see other thread close by). However, since people also died on the roads during Thaksin's administration, there is still a chance to implicate him.

At what age should I become an Evil Mastermind with a fluffy cat?

Please STOP. Laughing too hard. No more, please!

He's clearly a very funny man..... Personally, I like a guy who can lampoon his own overblown misconceptions.

Shows a measure of self awareness we could all do with a dose of

More and more and more and more BS ...

What does this article says ? That the relevant administration will publish a calendar for vaccination, and for the majors civic duties like reporting for conscription.

On the education side, the plan will state what are the goal of the eduction system, like at what age a kid should be able to read, write and what kind of basic knowledge should he/she has a some specific age.

Nothing revolutionary, it's something that already exist in all develloped countries.

But you add a misleading tittle, Nation style, and a bunch of posters who can't understand what they read and are only interested in starting a new pissing contest ...

If ThaiVisa want to lose its reputation as the sexpats forum, much more improvements are needed than just in the cosmetic of the forum.

And the Prime Minister herself needs to be on this, because?

You cannot rebut the points made, so you go off on a tangent? There is no sinister plan involved.

The fact of the matter is that every western country has a similar plan. In the west they may be formalized as a series of plans, such as innoculation schedules or pedagological achievements.

The concept of the plan introduces milestones and due dates and is how projects and development projects are monitored and managed.

The nasty negative comments from some people here demonstrate that many of the so called experts here have no work experience on projects and no education. I find it depressing that the gullible guppies of TVF gulp up the Nations article and pile on to twist out of context a harmless plan. This usually occurs when ignorant people get hold of something that their limited intellects are unable to comprehend.

Agreed. I'm only surprised none of the 'gullible guppies of TVF' have figured out a way to link this story in to Thaksin/Yingluck embezzling loads more money.

Still, it's only the 2nd page of the thread. Give 'em time....So far only one of them has engaged with the points made in the OP, so hope remains.

Oh no it isn't....

I think that person who was just recently bemoaning the quality of debate here might have a point. Now who was that... ?

It was me!!!!!!!!

What are you going on about? I never said 'you'll see, etc etc'. All I have ever said is NOW. I said 'now' two years ago that your unholy trinity was not one, I said last year that 'now' they are not the same, and NOW I'm saying they're not the same.

You have talked in the past about how the red movement may have started as a movement for Thaksin, but how it may develop into something more than that, and that is what gave me the impression that all this talk about PTP - Reds - UDD - Thaksin, not being all part of the same thing, was something you felt for the future. If i am wrong in my impression, and you think that as of this moment in time, they are not all part of the same thing, well then, you are even more wrong than i thought, if wrongness is gradable - guess it probably isn't. In which case, i'll settle for, you are still wrong.

You no doubt consider me a 'red lover' because I like to defend grass roots red shirts against idiots who label them all as terrorists etc. Fine, then I'm a red lover.

I wouldn't call you a red lover, that's a bit of a childish thing to call someone. I would say simply that you have red sympathies. I do too actually, if we were to believe the things the leaders of that group claim to be fighting for. Problem is, i don't believe them, and thus, i don't support or defend them.... unlike yourself.

I'm simply saying they are not the same as PTP and Thaksin NOW, just as they never have been.

And i'm simply saying that is nonsense that is proven as nonsense on almost a daily basis by their acts.

Oh no it isn't....

I offered the semantics thing as a graceful way out of the corner you have very firmly positioned yourself in with this narrow-minded, and therefore easy-to-adopt position.

You think the Unholy Trinity are one and the same. A true believer. People on the ground know different.

Don't concern yourself with trying to find graceful ways out for others, when you yourself have been relentless beating this same drum, month after month, year after year, of "you'll see, just you wait, any minute now the red shirt movement is going to morph into something more than just Thaksin, something that will help the people it falsely claims to give a shit about"... because month after month, year after year, all it ever does is prove you totally wrong.

What are you going on about? I never said 'you'll see, etc etc'. All I have ever said is NOW. I said 'now' two years ago that your unholy trinity was not one, I said last year that 'now' they are not the same, and NOW I'm saying they're not the same.

Why do you think that my saying they're not the same means that they are GOOD? That is your own invention, my friend. "If you don't agree with me, you must be directly opposed to me" - nice Bush-style logic there.

You no doubt consider me a 'red lover' because I like to defend grass roots red shirts against idiots who label them all as terrorists etc. Fine, then I'm a red lover.

My first post in this thread is one of only a few occassions that I've referred to what might happen to the red shirt movement in future, and one option was that they get used for their leaders' short term political ends. Whoever they may be in future. I don't particularly care what happens to the red shirt movement. I'm simply saying they are not the same as PTP and Thaksin NOW, just as they never have been.

Your inveterate need to simplify this situation to make scoring points in this forum easier for you is a good example of why this isn't the place to come for useful info on the subject. It is, however, precisely the place to come if you can't be bothered doing anything constructive and are looking for an excuse to waste a few hours sparring with someone else who also has too much time on their hands.

Carry on.

A deeper understanding will reveal that they may temporarily have the same attitude, but what lies on their decks and inside their hulls is quite different.

Not may have the same attitude, they do have the same attitude, and as for temporarily, how can you call something temporary when that has been their position since they came into existence.

Maybe the problem here is just semantics.

Nope. The problem here is your desperation and your wishful thinking that has you describing something not as it as but as you think / hope it might be at some future time.

I offered the semantics thing as a graceful way out of the corner you have very firmly positioned yourself in with this narrow-minded, and therefore easy-to-adopt position.

You think the Unholy Trinity are one and the same. A true believer. People on the ground know different.

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Completely agree with this, and again it points at the fact that the Red Shirts = Thaksin = PTP equation was always wrong, i

No, it was always right, and remains right to this day. You are always pointing to the future, and how the group might develop, and you may well be right, but until that point is reached, it all remains speculation, and hopeful speculation at that.

At present - and present is all we can really reasonably deal with - the equation is spot on. They are simply different parts of the exact same movement. Fool yourself that they aren't, by all means, but don't expect others to be fooled along with you.

Okay, so now we're doing the patronizing thing...my turn.

By all means, pretend that three ships sailing in the same direction all have the same captain (clones?). It is easy to do, I know. Doesn't take much thought, does it?

A deeper understanding will reveal that they may temporarily have the same attitude, but what lies on their decks and inside their hulls is quite different.

Maybe the problem here is just semantics. 'The same' to you is determined solely by the (limited) perception of outward appearance. 'The same' to me requires something a bit more substantive in order to be true.

Sheesh. You habitual anti-gov/red/Thaksin posters are all 'the same'. (joke, but with a point. apologies to whoever got it already.)

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Completely agree with this, and again it points at the fact that the Red Shirts = Thaksin = PTP equation was always wrong, it's just that people who advocated it were only considering the goals they apparently shared in the short term (especially when the Dems were in government). With the Dems out of office, these shared goals became fewer and they will continue to do so if/when Thaksin comes back.

The only thing I'm not sure of is under exactly what circumstances the red shirt movement would actually disband. I can't see how they would. Their stated aim is 'Democracy', but how do you measure this? When will they say 'We've got Democracy now, see ya!'? And I doubt any anti-monarchy ticket is their main agenda either as a lot of the grass roots support still have much respect for the monarchy regardless of what some fringe factions say.

So I rather think that the red shirt movement could go down one of two paths. It may become an organization ripe for hijacking under the banner of 'wanting Democracy' ad infinitum to achieve the political goals of whoever is leading it at the time, or it may slowly, quietly mutate into some kind of community watchdog organization, like a national 'neighborhood watch'. The former will happen if the national divides in this country remain, the latter will happen if said disparity between rich and poor is addressed to some extent. Of course, this could all be <deleted>.

The red shirts will find that there day is done, they served there purpose no need to keep them around. Embracing the military well the army isn't going anywhere any time soon as they are a powerful part of the government unlike the red shirts.

Good luck too you red shirts you will need all you can get from the Buddha

It appears the reds shirts' day is not quite done after all. At a rally yesterday in Sakhon Nakon (Isarn), 20 new self-declared red shirt villages were announced in that province.

They say in the northern region alone there are 2000 such villages so in Isarn there will probably be more.

Not only do they seem like they're not going away, it looks like their movement is growing.

I suggest you tell a red shirt (if you even know any) that Thaksin doesn't need them any more. Then check the response. Then adjust your view.

_

It's funny, for people who call themselves "democrats", that their best hope to come back to power is a military coup.

_

And Yingluks best hope of bringing her Brother back, and staying in power,is to Suck up to the Military,as she is doing now.

I think you'll find that 'sucking up to the military' has effectively been a part of the job description for any Prime Minister of Thailand in this as well as the last century. If you have a problem with this, you will not understand Thai politics anytime soon.

Quite right, this is a power-group which isn't going-away anytime soon, I'm not saying I approve of it, just agreeing that the situation exists.

Governments & PMs do what they can, but within certain limits, it's not like farang-land. Although sometimes the more-obvious pork-barrels can perhaps be cut-back or delayed, to some extent.

IMO one thing which helped precipitate the 2006-coup was an attempt to take direct-control of the military, by over-riding the normal internal promotion gravy-train, that was a serious mis-judgement by Thaksin, which lesson appears to have been learned.

If, as you say, the lesson about trying to mess with the army has been learned, wouldn't that suggest that the 'dictatorship under Thaksin' scenario which so many concerned farangs like to spout on about here on TV, would more obviously become the extremely unlikely outcome it always has been in my view?

_

It's funny, for people who call themselves "democrats", that their best hope to come back to power is a military coup.

_

And Yingluks best hope of bringing her Brother back, and staying in power,is to Suck up to the Military,as she is doing now.

I think you'll find that 'sucking up to the military' has effectively been a part of the job description for any Prime Minister of Thailand in this as well as the last century. If you have a problem with this, you will not understand Thai politics anytime soon.

Kwanchai Praipana, a red-shirt leader in Udon Thani, said he would arrange for the ordination of 999 red shirts at Sanam Luang this month in honour of His Majesty the King and in the hope that Thaksin will be granted a royal pardon.

ORDINATION.... off 999 Red Shirts??

They think they are a religion now.

The Cult of Thaksin takes another Great Leap Forward.

Goes perfectly with the Red Temples up north, with pictures of Thaksin prominent, and none of HRM or revered monks on display.

Oh stop being such a drama queen.

I was lucky enough to go to a gathering (impromptu party) in a self proclaimed red village south of Chiang Mai not long ago. I say 'lucky enough' because it gave me the opportunity to actually gain knowledge and experience of such places instead of making up stereotyped hysteria to fill the gaps in my understanding as you have done in your post.

It was a typical group of villagers - around 10 friends and family members who've all known each other since childhood. The talk was of premier league football and joking around at each other's expense. 2 were ex-army, and one was still doing his 2 years service.

Taking a quick look inside the house, I can't remember seeing any pictures of Thaksin although I wouldn't have been at all surprised if there were and I missed them. What there was in obvious abundance though were images of the King and several presumably famous old monks. Again, it seemed perfectly ordinary to me.

Back outside it turned out that 2 of the party were fairly staunch yellow-shirt supporters. I saw them having heated discussion with others in the group which at no point got rowdy or ill tempered. It seemed people could say what they wanted perfectly easily without intimidation and when all was said and done the drinking and joking continued.

There were a couple of jokes levelled at the 2 yellows there - like 'oh he's yellow shirt, no good' etc etc but it was always in jest and similar to other comments like 'he like Manchester United, he no good'. I had asked earlier about intimidation of yellows in a red village and was laughed at.

So all I can say is that the red shirt village I went to was basically the same in essence to any other rural Thai village I've ever been to.

If those people are the terrorists you and your red shirt-hating buddies on this forum think they are, perhaps you need to tell them instead of a bunch of disconnected farangs on a web board. Thinking about it though, maybe a bunch of disconnected farangs is actually your best audience - how could they disagree with you?

From where I was sitting, these reds (and a couple of yellows) in this red shirt village looked uncannily like very normal, fair minded and light hearted people just getting on with their lives. Which by the way seems a much more dignified pursuit than habitually spouting other people's blind rhetoric on an anonymous web forum.

What village was it you went to and how did they get the distinction of being a red shirt village.

I thought that they were all in the north east.

I am quite aware of the fact that many villages have many red shirt supporters but not that a red shirt village had yellow shirts in it.

Maybe I am reading the wrong thing into the term red shirt village.

Also what has all this got to do with 999 red shirts being ordained.

Is this a new religion with Thaksin as the head.

The First Church Of Corruption, Greed And Money.

It was Baan Krang, about 25 Km south of CM some distance off the main highway. I understand they had some kind of ceremony a few days earlier and now considered themselves a red village.

I think you are indeed reading the wrong thing into the term red village. They are not populated by militias and they are not 'no go' areas to anyone as far as I could tell. At least this one wasn't. The only reason I knew it was a red village at all was because of a large banner over the road from when the ceremony took place earlier in the week, and because I was later told as much.

It's just the same old people living there as have lived there for years and years. They didn't suddenly turn into a bunch of militants and I just can't believe how people can think that that can happen so easily to essentially right-minded people.

I'm sorry to copy my post from another thread, but it appears to have more relevance here:

===============================

I was lucky enough to go to a gathering (impromptu party) in a self proclaimed red village south of Chiang Mai not long ago. I say 'lucky enough' because it gave me the opportunity to actually gain knowledge and experience of such places instead of making up stereotyped hysteria to fill the gaps in my understanding as you have done in your post.

It was a typical group of villagers - around 10 friends and family members who've all known each other since childhood. The talk was of premier league football and joking around at each other's expense. 2 were ex-army, and one was still doing his 2 years service.

Taking a quick look inside the house, I can't remember seeing any pictures of Thaksin although I wouldn't have been at all surprised if there were and I missed them. What there was in obvious abundance though were images of the King and several presumably famous old monks. Again, it seemed perfectly ordinary to me.

Back outside it turned out that 2 of the party were fairly staunch yellow-shirt supporters. I saw them having heated discussion with others in the group which at no point got rowdy or ill tempered. It seemed people could say what they wanted perfectly easily without intimidation and when all was said and done the drinking and joking continued.

There were a couple of jokes levelled at the 2 yellows there - like 'oh he's yellow shirt, no good' etc etc but it was always in jest and similar to other comments like 'he like Manchester United, he no good'. I had asked earlier about intimidation of yellows in a red village and was laughed at.

So all I can say is that the red shirt village I went to was basically the same in essence to any other rural Thai village I've ever been to.

If those people are the terrorists you and your red shirt-hating buddies on this forum think they are, perhaps you need to tell them instead of a bunch of disconnected farangs on a web board. Thinking about it though, maybe a bunch of disconnected farangs is actually your best audience - how could they disagree with you?

From where I was sitting, these reds (and a couple of yellows) in this red shirt village looked uncannily like very normal, fair minded and light hearted people just getting on with their lives. Which by the way seems a much more dignified pursuit than habitually spouting other people's blind rhetoric on an anonymous web forum.

========================

There was no evidence of the place being a 're-education' camp, boot camp, or a no-go area for those with yellow views.

Now if one of you red-haters goes to a red village (which you probably will never do for a lot of reasons), and find evidence of it being any one of those things, then please come post back your experiences.

Hanuman, no matter how well we blend in, I wonder if we create an "observer effect", would topic conversations be the same if we were not there? Or are red villages more politically aware, less parochial?

Well the people I was with were proud to proclaim themselves red shirts, but most of them weren't 'hung up' on any of the issues. The political conversations weren't more than 10% of the total chatting during the 5-6 hours I was there. I just brought it up here because it was so clearly different from what we often hear from posters on TV that yellow villagers in red shirt villages live in fear of violence for expressing alternative opinions and this clearly was not the case in this red shirt village.

There were one or two of them that obviously did have opinions on national level politics so I would agree with you that those kind of people are more apparent in red shirt villages. This isn't really surprising though, as many commentators have said that for all his evils, Thaksin was the catalyst that brought heightened awareness of and interest in national politics to rural villages for the first time.