hanuman1

More Muang ake and Rangsit university pics.

It's a real mess and no signs of the water going down.

Wow - thanks for the pics - that's quite astounding. If that area's at a significantly lower elevation to all surrounding sides, the water isn't going to drain off for ages. So sorry for those effected there. Best wishes.

Good news everybody! It looks like they removed the famous stickers!

So, either they took Nick's advice or somebody else told them that it might be a good idea to remove the stickers if their intention is to help everybody.

However, as expected I was not "disappointed" in finding the boats once again stationary at their tends.

Well, one can only ask for so much.....

Thanks for the photo!

It seems they started to consider the views of others outside their immediate circle of friends. Fair enough. If they'd known how upset some anonymous farangs would get because of their sticker, they would probably have [complete the sentence for your own amusement].

And if they indeed disallowed any non-red shirts to get on the boat, this would surely be classified as a reprehensible and indefensible act, very much like what some others did a couple of years back by occupying the airport.

Where would a red-shirt defence be without the obligatory airport occupation mention? It's stood them in good stead for many years now as a way of avoiding addressing their own misdemeanors, but dragging up history that far back is starting to stretch an argument that from birth was already dead on its legs. They must be praying for the yellows to do something again of equal stupidity, so as to give them some fresh material with which to explain away all their own ongoing stupidity.

It's stood them in good stead for many years now as a way of avoiding addressing their own misdemeanors, but dragging up history that far back is starting to stretch an argument that from birth was already dead on its legs.

On the subject of the 'shelf life' of indefensible acts as political point scoring tools in these important discussions, how long would you give, say, the 2006 coup or the fighting last year in Bangkok? 10 minutes and forever respectively, I'd imagine. Although of course I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

The accusation is that they advertise their rescue services are for red shirts only. That's not speculation, that's a proven fact. YOU proved it Nick. What is unproven and is based on hearsay is that despite their written assertions that their services are for red shirts only, they will help anyone. The onus on the journalist who wishes to corroborate that, is to find those others they have been helped. I don't mean to sound uncharitable Nick, but maybe this lack of simple logic/reasoning ability is one of the reasons the mainstream press isn't knocking on your door as of yet.

Excuse me, but for the past 18 years i have made a living from working for the mainstream press - mostly as a photographer, but in certain subjects such as the Red/Yellow conflict also as researcher and fixer (where i have refused more requests than accepted, especially from TV productions), and writing one or the other story. It is my choice that i do not want to make a living as a professional writer, even though on occasion i also write stories.

My books are my obsession, but that is not what i make a living from.

What i proved here is that indeed these stickers exist, and that this group stated to my probing that they were thoughtless, but that they help all that need help. I will hardly now retrace their steps over all provinces they worked in, just to maybe find somebody they refused to help (this is insane, i am sorry). The usual procedure is that somebody reports such an incident somewhere, and than one will follow this up, but not going on a wild goose chase searching for the needle in the haystack.

I've got absolutely nothing against you Nick and I'm really enthused that someone is covering this movement. Perhaps where some of the conflicts we have comes down to how you and others see your role. If it's as a journalist, then I think a lot of the criticisms are warranted. If it's as an analyst, then I would argue from what I have seen you have what is known as a "confirmation bias" (you're certainly not alone there Nick).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

OTOH if your role is more akin to the James Woods role in "Salvador" then you really ought to disclose that. It would still garner your work respect (certainly mine), but it would need to be weighed differently, taking into account the clear bias. Nothing wrong with bias, or advocacy, or even punditry in small doses, but it needs to ALWAYS be disclosed so that readers properly evaluate what they are reading.

Nothing wrong with bias, or advocacy, or even punditry in small doses, but it needs to ALWAYS be disclosed so that readers properly evaluate what they are reading.

Do you think it would be a good idea to apply this to other reporting as well - like for example the Nation and TAN articles we are served up on this forum?

Thanks for your valuable work in the field and the reports you provide, Nick. It is as interesting for its content as it is for the responses it elicits.

I hope you continue to shed light here on what's happening on the ground as it adds an important dimension to the articles we are fed here every day.

"People have been selfishly hoarding masses of bottled drinking water and food, while cars are double- or even triple-parked on elevated roads with no regard to how it's affecting traffic. Then there is the constant bickering between the ruling Pheu Thai Party and opposition Democrats as both sides try to make the most out of this disaster, not to mention those who are so busy watching this political soap opera that they have no time to help. Adding to the spectacle are the movie stars and television hosts who see the floods as a chance to promote themselves."fairytale

Was it ever different? The only thing Thai people are interested in is themselves, themselves and themselves. If you do not walk around blind here you can see it every day everywhere in this country. The united, unique and caring society is a fairytale. Screw everybody for your own benefit, that is the motto of the vast majority here.

My view on Thai people is that they are greedy and selfish, well that is to say it is a generalised opinion and probably does not apply to everyone.

I was married to a Thai woman who had some academic achievements. I married her, not because she was the best ;looking woman in the bunch, but because she appeared to be intelligent and 'sorted'. It turned out that she was a liar and thief and a very clever manipulator. While with me she was seeing a boyfriend elsewhere and using my money to buy him gifts, such as a watch and an i-phone. She was always on about the dishonesty of bar girls and Esarn girls, but in fact she was worse than them. Addicted to shopping she swamped herself with brand names and ended up with so many clothes it was obscene. At the end she left me because she "wanted to be independent". But this was part of a manipulative lie. Pretending to want me to be her best friend and someone I could always rely on, she coaxed some cash out of me. Got as much as she thought she could get and then turned against me overnight in an attempt to extract a few more million. Yes, Wachiraporn is typical of the lying cheating and manipulative Thai person. They all pretend to be good buddhists sticking to the precepts ..... but hey! Look at the whisky they drink, the greed, the selfishness, the lies and the theft as well as the cheating on their wives and husbands. So come to Chiang Mai and see this ex wife of mine. Absolutely diabolical and unbelievable. The caring society? Yeah well........

Still, at least you came out of it without being weighed down by bitterness or resentment...

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

Tough luck Dude, in case you did not notice, Thailand is at the mercy of mob-rule.... they are called Red Shirts, and like rats , they are everywhere

But unlike rats, they can vote in sufficient numbers to determine which party will be this country's government. You are now in the process of learning to live with this fact.

opps....touched a raw nerve there lad. Having watched TV years, with people bitching about "Thai women"..... i would say 95 in 100 starts with " i met this girl in a bar".

I bet a large majority of falangs have never met as or dated a non-bar "Thai women".

I have and still do.

I haven't and still don't.

and evidence for that suspicion?

Probably about the same amount of evidence as you have to back up your own radical rantings.

....is that it?

....actually some forum members miss a very important point about Yingluck, which is that her failure is Thaksin's failure. He is the one making the key calls.

Thaksin has gone quiet because things are not going well and he wants as little of the muck to stick to his shirt.

When things are going bad you hear little or nothing of the 'Yingluck is my clone' message. Politically his sister is expendable.

The problem is him not her. Who wants to be in her shoes with her brother making crap cabinet appointments and crap calls to deal with the situation?

Thaksin is the liability.

Thank you for your opinion. I disagree.

I would try to make some points to counter yours, but as a wise poster once put it: in a dick-waving competition, the biggest dick always wins.

I wonder if that segment of the public that is said to be doubting Yingluck's abilities voted for her or not. My suspicion is that they didn't vote for her in the first place.

and evidence for that suspicion?

Probably about the same amount of evidence as you have to back up your own radical rantings.

Yes, I was wondering whether or not this sticker was from the UDD or a different, smaller faction. To people who hate the red shirts of course it makes no difference. This is a problem for the red shirt movement as friction between its factions - which there undoubtedly is - will lead to observers criticizing the entire movement for the actions of one faction.

One thing I'd like to know is how much better the average Thai voter of whichever political persuasion understands the makeup of the red shirt movement than, say, the average anti-red shirt poster on TVF. After all, it's the Thais who count when determining the extent of public support for whatever political group.

In the OP articles that fuel these threads, little attention is drawn to the factional makeup of the red shirt movement and I'm just wondering if the same can be said for articles in the Thai media in general, as my knowledge of Thai isn't good enough to understand the more formal language used in these publications.

Push, push a little harder and someone will complain it is a fake red sticker designed to discredit the reds. We're almost there with the well maybe just a faction of the reds, a small faction not really representative and so on. Funny how the reds seems always to provide plenty, but plenty of ammunition to feed those they accuse of being Thaksin/reds haters. Twisting in the wind.

Sun Tzu in 'The Art of War' said 'Know your enemy'. I guess you think that's BS. Too much like hard work, eh?

I came to Thailand 22 years ago as a consultant to the government and worked on projects for half a dozen ministries until 1999. 30% of project budget was "supplemental" then and my Thai associates tell me that's still the number.

Thank you. Only one sentence long but containing more pertinent information to the OP than all the other posts put together.

How do you conspiracy theorist explain this photo then? Also photoshopped?

That does look pretty similar to the content of the other photo. I wonder which Red faction this is? The sign on the back of the truck says 'Niti...or' (the rest is illegible). The registration plate is from Phrae province.

Took the liberty of making a translation for those who do not speak Thai.

Have to admit I also couldn't get the reflection of the white sticker right so left it out.

P.S. aren't reflections normally reversed??

Anyway not to confuse people as being original I watermarked it.

Well now that is interesting. Even photos can't be trusted these days.

Why would you ask for evidence and then completely ignore the link I posted?

Anyway, here it is:

It's the thin white sticker towards the front of the boat.

Thank you. That's what I was after. It is idiotic and clearly divisive. Thanks again.

Yes indeed, it is idiotic.

One thing though - i am not 100% sure, but the sign looks to me like one of the Red Shirt community radio station signs, and not the UDD sign. Whatever it is - this clearly goes against stated UDD policy - which is helping anybody regardless of politics.

Yes, I was wondering whether or not this sticker was from the UDD or a different, smaller faction. To people who hate the red shirts of course it makes no difference. This is a problem for the red shirt movement as friction between its factions - which there undoubtedly is - will lead to observers criticizing the entire movement for the actions of one faction.

One thing I'd like to know is how much better the average Thai voter of whichever political persuasion understands the makeup of the red shirt movement than, say, the average anti-red shirt poster on TVF. After all, it's the Thais who count when determining the extent of public support for whatever political group.

In the OP articles that fuel these threads, little attention is drawn to the factional makeup of the red shirt movement and I'm just wondering if the same can be said for articles in the Thai media in general, as my knowledge of Thai isn't good enough to understand the more formal language used in these publications.

I'd say that willingly denying people access to assistance according to their political persuasion is not exactly what one could call an act of humanity.

I'd like to see the people responsible for putting that sticker on that boat explain why they did it.

Of course we can all make guesses according to our approach to the subject but it would be interesting to hear it from the horses mouth.

While we're waiting for them to get back to us on that, maybe someone here could speculate what possible positive meaning it might have. I'm placing a bet with myself here. I'll tell you later if I win or not.

No need to remind us how much you like speculation, so have at it. No takers yet, but have faith. I'd say 'don't hold your breathe' but that would be kind of argumentative.

I'd say that willingly denying people access to assistance according to their political persuasion is not exactly what one could call an act of humanity.

I'd like to see the people responsible for putting that sticker on that boat explain why they did it.

Of course we can all make guesses according to our approach to the subject but it would be interesting to hear it from the horses mouth.

Thank you. That's what I was after. It is idiotic and clearly divisive. Thanks again.

Ah, so now maybe you grok the lack of humanity comment from the other day. I'd like to say these actions were merely ignorant, but clearly they are intended to be hateful. Someone is trying to sow division. They think there's something in it for themselves. Meanwhile the body count climbs daily.

What does 'grok' mean?

To understand thouroughly at a deep inner level.

If being idiotic and divisive equates to a lack of humanity then there's an awful lot of people who need to be told they're inhuman. Looks like your you've got your work cut out as the harbinger of Truth. Best put the kettle on. It's gonna be a long night...

Why would you ask for evidence and then completely ignore the link I posted?

Anyway, here it is:

It's the thin white sticker towards the front of the boat.

Thank you. That's what I was after. It is idiotic and clearly divisive. Thanks again.

Ah, so now maybe you grok the lack of humanity comment from the other day. I'd like to say these actions were merely ignorant, but clearly they are intended to be hateful. Someone is trying to sow division. They think there's something in it for themselves. Meanwhile the body count climbs daily.

What does 'grok' mean?

Well i guess we managed to totaly discredit the Title of this thread "PTP & Red Shirts do nothing to help their own" - seems it should be renamed to "PTP & Red Shirts only want to help their own"

Justsayin

Either way is a criticism of the gov/reds, so either way will do.

No need to bring the nature of your relationship with you wife into this. I just wanted to see some Thai script that says 'this is for Red Shirts only'. I have seen Thai script on the page you refer to, but couldn't find any that said 'for Red Shirts only'. Not wanting to overlook the possibility of having missed something, I asked you to produce said script. If you had, I would agree that it is contemptible. Sorry for asking for evidence.

Maybe not asking for evidence would make be a better poster in your eyes.

Why would you ask for evidence and then completely ignore the link I posted?

Anyway, here it is:

It's the thin white sticker towards the front of the boat.

Thank you. That's what I was after. It is idiotic and clearly divisive. Thanks again.

Could you or someone else please post a picture of where it says (presumably in Thai) that the boats are for 'Red Shirts only'.

I saw one image of a boat which had a white sign with ineligible (out of focus) lettering which the accompanying text put there by the poster stated that it said 'for Red Shirts only', but I haven't actually seen any Thai script saying this as yet. It could be plausible that signs might say 'for a red shirt community' or 'for red shirts' (ie for them to do with as they will), but that is far away from saying 'no-one else should use them', and it is this 'only' suffix that I'd like to see in Thai script before I believe what at first sight appears to be more anti-gov/red hysteria.

Right here, one the second page for everybody to see clearly.

Are you going to deny something that everybody else can see?

Are you going to deny something that you yourself can see?

I can read Thai fairly well, but maybe I missed it. Could you tell me which Thai words on that page say 'for red Shirts only'?

Otherwise, if you can't read Thai:

Are you going to believe something you cannot reasonably verify or conclude by yourself?

Are you going to believe something that is propagated by people well known to have a prejudiced view?

Cheers :jap:

My wife translated for me, she can read Thai perfectly well thanks.

She confirmed what others have said, that it categorically states that the boat is to be used only by red shirts. It is not open to interpretation, it is a plain and simple message.. Not a single other person on any board or elsewhere has tried to deny the meaning of the message, and if you even try to go down the "can i trust my wife" route you will make yourself look rather foolish

Now, I have spent too long on internet discussions to get involved in arguments with people that deny what is right before them. It's just interesting to see that people will not waver in their beliefs in the slightest depending solely on which side of the coin is being discussed.

Such partisanship even in the face of such appalling actions is something that makes politics a big bunch if ballbags. You can say what you want on here, it really doesn't matter. But quite why you don't question your partisanship is beyond me.

No need to bring the nature of your relationship with you wife into this. I just wanted to see some Thai script that says 'this is for Red Shirts only'. I have seen Thai script on the page you refer to, but couldn't find any that said 'for Red Shirts only'. Not wanting to overlook the possibility of having missed something, I asked you to produce said script. If you had, I would agree that it is contemptible. Sorry for asking for evidence.

Maybe not asking for evidence would make be a better poster in your eyes.

I notice the red shirts aren't trying to justify the favoritism shown, rather they are trying to deny it.

Of course this can only mean that they themselves feel as though such actions are despicable and cannot be defended.

So why then are they vehemently defending some of the more verbal claims of what is going on, and then apparently ignoring issues such as boats that are clearly labelled for red shirts only. it's such a blatantly selective train of thought that even some of those red shirts themselves must have doubts about the ethics behind what is happening.

Could you or someone else please post a picture of where it says (presumably in Thai) that the boats are for 'Red Shirts only'.

I saw one image of a boat which had a white sign with ineligible (out of focus) lettering which the accompanying text put there by the poster stated that it said 'for Red Shirts only', but I haven't actually seen any Thai script saying this as yet. It could be plausible that signs might say 'for a red shirt community' or 'for red shirts' (ie for them to do with as they will), but that is far away from saying 'no-one else should use them', and it is this 'only' suffix that I'd like to see in Thai script before I believe what at first sight appears to be more anti-gov/red hysteria.

Right here, one the second page for everybody to see clearly.

Are you going to deny something that everybody else can see?

Are you going to deny something that you yourself can see?

I can read Thai fairly well, but maybe I missed it. Could you tell me which Thai words on that page say 'for red Shirts only'?

Otherwise, if you can't read Thai:

Are you going to believe something you cannot reasonably verify or conclude by yourself?

Are you going to believe something that is propagated by people well known to have a prejudiced view?

Cheers :jap:

I notice the red shirts aren't trying to justify the favoritism shown, rather they are trying to deny it.

Of course this can only mean that they themselves feel as though such actions are despicable and cannot be defended.

So why then are they vehemently defending some of the more verbal claims of what is going on, and then apparently ignoring issues such as boats that are clearly labelled for red shirts only. it's such a blatantly selective train of thought that even some of those red shirts themselves must have doubts about the ethics behind what is happening.

Could you or someone else please post a picture of where it says (presumably in Thai) that the boats are for 'Red Shirts only'.

I saw one image of a boat which had a white sign with ineligible (out of focus) lettering which the accompanying text put there by the poster stated that it said 'for Red Shirts only', but I haven't actually seen any Thai script saying this as yet. It could be plausible that signs might say 'for a red shirt community' or 'for red shirts' (ie for them to do with as they will), but that is far away from saying 'no-one else should use them', and it is this 'only' suffix that I'd like to see in Thai script before I believe what at first sight appears to be more anti-gov/red hysteria.

As for public money being used to send supplies with the government's advertising on it, clearly that is wrong. There may be a chance that it wasn't public money that was being used, but the party's own money, but this hasn't been proved one way or another and certainly should be investigated.

Well, you're the investigative reporter, but here's some leads to follow up. On the flooding. How was it that the dams were 20% below capacity when this govt took office as storms were expected soon, but rather than manage the dams they let them fill to overcapacity requiring the dumping of water at the worst possible time leading to the floods being experienced now. As for Suphan I was hoping you could connect the Banharn, Thaksin, Arab rice deal dots for us and if that had anything to do with the lack of flooding there. Stay well Nick.

I am working on the Red - Yellow conflict, and not on incidents of presumed corruption (all sides guilty), presumed mismanagement (all sides guilty), bad water management (decades of that by all governments), Banharn the eel (around for decades), or any nutty conspiracy theory that has nothing to do with the basic Red - Yellow conflict, and the differing ideological views on the future the Thai state, which is what i work on.

Right now - there is the flood, and so far attempts to draw the Red - Yellow conflict into this disaster is not reflected on the ground in more than on a miniscule level, and any attempt by "journalists" to artificially pull this conflict into the flood itself is nothing but blatantly taking advantage of this disaster, and leaving the path of any journalistic ethics and professionalism.

If you actually go to the affected areas, you can see military, police, Red Shirts and volunteers of many organizations working together (of course with the normal conflicts between humans). Therefore, from the ground perspective, which is my favored perspective - i really cannot say anything else than that, so far.

Have you noticed that none of the reporters that actually get their feet wet have anything else to say, and that the attempts to connect the flood with the sozio-political conflict come only from the reporters that never get down to the ground level - neither during the protests, nor now in the flood?

So, i would suggest the impossible here on Thaivisa: just leave the politics out of it for the time being.

Hi Nick, I have the same observation on the ground here in Pathum Thani as you do, although more limited as I have not gone too far from our flooded house. Everyone here is pitching in to help, good spirits, I don't see any of the kind of thing that certifiable nutcase Thanong writes about.

I am afraid your plea will fall on deaf ears here. For reasons I cannot fathom TVF is a farang yellow shirt redoubt, slightly to the right of Attila the Hun politically. I know you are busy, but when you have time I would like to hear your theories of just why that is so? I know a few Thai red shirts opponents who would be ashamed by some of the crap washing up here. A lot of it is from people who could not understand directions in Thai to their corner 7/11, but somehow they are past masters of Thai current events. Mind boggling.

For reasons I cannot fathom TVF is a farang yellow shirt redoubt, slightly to the right of Attila the Hun politically.

Let me help you out here. The forum is mainly driven by The Nation and TAN articles.

Also, there are some posters whose political fervor is so great, they post here just to 'recruit' people to think like them and don't limit their political activism just to this site, but have facebook pages etc etc used to promote the same political viewpoints.

Each to their own, though, eh?