Andy F

It's worth getting a full medical check up and a professional medical opinion. It may help motivate you to quit smoking and start doing a bit of mild exercise. Walking in nature may give your lungs a new lease of life. Going to a sauna and steam bath, may also clear your lungs a bit. I was diagnosed with COPD. This was the wake up call I needed to quit smoking. COPD is irreversible but it can improve a lot with regular exercise. Good luck 🙏🌹🙏

The fundamentalists and the Big Book Thumpers in AA are free to interpret the Big Book in any way that works for them. That is absolutely fine, so long as they don't try to shove their particular brand of AA down the throats of those who are not interested. 

Following a recent dialogue with the General Service Office (GSO) of AA in New York, I was informed that the AA program is completely open to personal interpretation. I assume that this includes the AA Big Book. That, too, is open to personal interpretation. The last time I looked, AA was still a pure democracy. You take what you need and leave the rest.

The AA conference is mindful that for AA to survive, it had to reassess its position on the use of the word "God" as the only higher power that works. See the link to the "God" word pamphlet.

https://www.aa.org/god-word-agnostic-and-atheist-members-aa

You tell me that I have not answered your questions/ Why on Earth would I want to do that when I don't want what you have? 

I am 27 years sober with contented sobriety. I sponsor 5 guys who also identify as atheists, agnostics, and freethinkers. We study the literature. I always tell them they will recover if they make AA their higher power.

I remind them that pertinent idea C says, "God could and would if he were SOUGHT". It doesn't say found! As long as the alcoholic remains a spiritual seeker and remains true to himself, he will stay sober and recreate his life.

pertinent idea B says, "No human power could relieve our alcoholism." Can you call the collective power of alcoholics in AA a human power? No, collectively. This Group Of Drunks. is definitely a power greater than the individual alcoholic.

Relax, guys; we atheists, agnostics, and freethinkers have got it all in hand. Many have not had a drink in years and are happy, joyous and free.

In response to that, I suppose you are now going to tell me that "I can't be a REAL alcoholic if I don't believe in God". In all my years in AA, I have never heard such a deluded and psychotic statement from the fundamentalist camp in AA.

You guys keep doing what you do if it keeps you sober, and we will keep doing what we do to keep us sober.

"LIVE AND LET LIVE" - Popular AA slogan displayed at almost every AA meeting worldwide.

Responsibility Is Our Theme

"Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. We have people of nearly every race, culture and religion. In AA we are supposed to be bound together in the kinship of a common suffering. Consequently, the full individual liberty to practice any creed or principle or therapy whatever should be a first consideration for us all. Let us not, therefore, pressure anyone with our individual or even our collective views. Let us instead accord each other the respect and love that is due to every human being as he tries to make his way toward the light. Let us always try to be inclusive rather than exclusive; let us remember that each alcoholic among us is a member of AA, so long as he or she so declares".

Bill W.

Copyright © AA Grapevine, Inc. (July 1965)

" This was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They had widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass through, regardless of belief or lack of belief."

Bill W.

I rest my case 

Have a great Weekend

You are in violation of the third tradition with that kind of rhetoric It has nothing whatever to do with the all-inclusive ethos of Alcoholics Anonymous. Guys like you should be ashamed. You are destroying the unity of AA which has always been the lifeblood of the fellowship. You chose to interpret the AA literature in a way that suits your fear-driven fundamentalist agendas. There is room in AA for every alcoholic irrespective of their belief of lack of belief. 

What happened to "Live ad Let live"?

Utterly pathetic mate! You need to take inventory again to question the authenticity of your spiritual values! 

On 4/18/2024 at 8:25 PM, StandardIssue said:

 

That is an extremely rare occurrence if I ever heard one. I hope you are being honest and not trolling ... but if it actually happened i find that very sad indeed.

 

Guys like that don't carry the true message of AA.  -- Having had a spiritual awakening as THE result of the steps.

 

I would suggest you study the literature. Especially the chapter "We Agnostics". I am a student of the literature for awhile now. Anyone who goes to meetings with decades of sobriety and proudly announces themselves as an atheist just does meetings and in my experience has not studied the basic texts. They obviously have not done the program as designed and also may not be real alcoholics. If they actually did program as designed they would have come to know a Power Greater than themselves.

 

 

Guys like that (with decades of sobriety) are egoists bucking the program and spitting in the face of the majority of us who were once atheists or had some belief to begin with and came to know a God of our own understanding by doing the 12 steps. Think about it.. most people who know the program and are trying to put it in their lives are trying to practice spirituality and continue to grow in their relationship with a God. How spiritual is it to come in to AA and say you know better?  What is that? 

 

Now, of course about half of new comers in AA are agnostic or atheists but if they do the program with a good sponsor whey will be faced with the fact that the programs asks, in Step 2, for even a willingness to believe their might be a God or Higher Power that can help. 

 

Do yourself a favor. Go online and find either the Joe and Charlie Big Book study seminar or the Bob D and Scott L big book study seminars and study the program of AA. 

 

What I say to anyone who claims decades of sobriety in AA as an atheist is this. Why go to meetings of AA if your not going to do the program of AA. Meetings are meetings the 12 steps are the program. Nobody has to do the steps but if you are not going to do the steps as designed why hang out in meetings for decades? Just to hear yourself talk? Just for the social value? Just so you can pontificate about some meaningless crap you think is the program of AA or your personal "interpretation" of the program without actually having informed yourself by carefully studying it? That is NOT HELPING! 

 

The rest of us are trying to save our lives by finding a Power Greater than ourselves to solve our problem. (that's a quote from the big book). The main purpose of the book is to find a power greater to solve your problem. The entire program is based on finding a Power Greater than oneself to solve the obsession for alcohol.

It's not rare at all mate. Atheists like Jim Burwell have been around from AA's very beginning. Since then,Secular AA has become a force to be reckoned with

https://www.aasecular.org/

Thank you brother. Point taken. Good luck with your recovery 🙏🌹🙏

Dear Friends

In the Chapter on Step 4 in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Bill W, the co-founder of AA, makes the following statement about alcoholics in relationships:

"The primary fact we fail to recognize is our total inability to form a true partnership with another human being." (p. 53)

Could it be true? I hope you enjoy the blog I wrote about it.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/recovering-alcoholics-in-relationships/

Recovering alcoholics in relationships.lnk

Disclaimer

The content of this blog is an AA member's personal experience. It does not necessarily represent the ideas, beliefs, or practices of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Thank you for your comments 💟 I agree wholeheartedly. Religious fundamentalism in AA is seriously undermining the unity of the fellowship 🙏

Dear friends,

I have written a short book about the dangers of hardcore religious fundamentalism in AA. Although in the minority, there are also cult-like splinter groups that can also be damaging to the sometimes vulnerable newcomer.

The book is available as a FREE PDF copy here:

https://aaforagnostics.com/

Disclaimer

The content of this blog is an AA member's personal experience. It does not necessarily represent the ideas, beliefs, or practices of Alcoholics Anonymous

Jim B, AA's first atheist, convinced Bill to make changes to steps three and eleven in AA's twelve steps

We owe the clause "as we understand him" to Jim. Also, Jim got Bill to include the word "suggested" In chapter 5 of the Big Book.

"Here are the steps we took which are 'suggested' as a program of recovery."

AA is all-inclusive. There is room in AA for all alcoholics seeking a solution to their drinking problem. Atheists, Agnostics, and Freethinkers are just as welcome as those members who believe in God.

Have a great 24 hours, everyone!

Dear friends, A big part of my pattern as an active alcoholic was the "geographical cure."

I was in full flight from myself and reality. I hope you like the blog I wrote about it.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/the-geographical-cure/

Disclaimer

The content of this blog is a personal experience of recovery from alcoholism. The ideas expressed here do not necessarily reflect the beliefs held by AA as a whole

Atheist, agnostic or freethinker in AA?

Free online conference of Secular AA

7 - 8th of October 2023

Please pass it on

????????????

Dear friends.

Do some alcoholics in AA also suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

It can end very badly if you ask one to be your sponsor.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/twelve-step-sponsors-and-narcissism/

Disclaimer

The content of this blog is an AA member's personal experience. It is in no way representative of Alcoholics Anonymous

15 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

Let's not stoop to being judgemental or slinging mud. I think we can both agree being judgemental of others is quite the opposite of spiritual behavior.

BTW, the big book was written in such as way as to leave very little up to interpretation. I highly suggest studying it. In the text itself they say thet strive to specifically and as precisely as possible show other alcoholics how they had recovered.

Look, I don't want what you have, so I'm stepping off this conversation. ????

3 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

How am I supposed to know if I like it or not without reading it? It's not that I don't like it. It's that it's plain inaccurate. In this case you are writing material that you claim to be AA program and it's simply not. I'll I'm doing is pointing that out.

 

If you are going to write material that you claim is AA then back it up with actual program literature quotes.

 

Parroting things and ideas heard in the AA  fellowship doesn't necessarily make it part of the AA program.

You're interpretation of the AA program is so literal that it takes all the spirituality out of it. My interpretation of honesty, open-mindedess and willingness is spot on because it's based on my own personal experience and has led me to 26 years of content sobriety.

With your rigid and anal interpretation of the AA program, I certainly don't want what you have. I've never seen a positive side to your character. You neurotically stick to your interpretation of the program. I bet that in your addiction to rigid control, you never smile or have a good laugh about anything. You are terminally serious and miserable in your rigid fundamentalism. It has all the hallmarks of a dry drunk!

13 minutes ago, Andy F said:

If you don't like my material, may I suggest you don't read it. A lot of normal recovering alcoholics appreciate my blogs but you don't strike me as normal in any way! Keep coming back

In AA we speak the language of the heart. Stop being so anal about recovery!

19 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

Many AA's hove found that it is important to reference the 12 step program from AA literature when communicating ideas about AA. I find the fellowship a place where a lot of information get's talked about that does not necessarily line up with the  AA program described in it's literature. So repeating ideas kicked around the fellowship can perpetuate misinformation about the true program of AA as outlined in AA basic text literature.

 

Acronyms such as H.O.W. and G.O.D. are examples of ideas that have come from treatment centers or other recovery sources that claim to know the AA program but exist for profit. They embellish or write their own literature without careful study of the original AA basic texts. They give out information about AA that is in many cases not AA. 

 

For example. Open mindedness is referenced in Appendix II.  Nowhere in the program literature does it have anything to do with taking a sponsors advice or direction. The word is used to express an attitude one should have when looking at spiritual principles or considering the existence of a Higher Power or Power Greater than ourselves.

 

Appendix II AA Big Book:

Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial. We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.

 

Open mindedness is also used in "We Agnostics: (This chapter existing in the book to help persuade atheists or agnostics to be open minded and willing to believe there may be a Higher Power or God to help them with alcoholism)

 

Page 48 Big Book:

Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will be prejudiced for as long as some of us were. (the prejudice they are talking about is prejudice toward a Higher Power or God)

 

The AA Big Book concordance @ https://www.164andmore.com is an excellent source one can reference to see how words are used and in what context they are used in the AA fellowships text books "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions".

 

If you don't like my material, may I suggest you don't read it. A lot of normal recovering alcoholics appreciate my blogs but you don't strike me as normal in any way! Keep coming back

On 9/23/2023 at 12:27 PM, Neeranam said:

Some great stuff in there,  ????

Thanks Neeranam! ????????????

15 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Met him in Pattaya of all places around 10 years ago.

A very clever man who understood alcoholism inside out! ????????????

Dear friends of Bill. Here is a blog I wrote a while ago. It may be helpful to AA newcomers. I've called it "Honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness."

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/honesty-open-mindedness-willingness/

Disclaimer

The content of this blog is an AA member's personal experience. It is in no way representative of Alcoholics Anonymous

Dear friends

As an enquiring agnostic,  I became interested in exploring diverse spiritual systems to satisfy my thirst for a spiritual experience. In those early days of sobriety, I became something of a spiritual seeker. Well, at least I was in line with pertinent idea C  of the AA Big Book.

"God could and would if He were sought."

BB - Chapter 5 "How it works." p. 60

I hope you like the blog I wrote about it. I have called it "A Truth Seeker in Recovery"

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/a-truth-seeker-in-recovery/

Dear friends in recovery

As a drunk, both in and out of AA, I suffered from a "total inability of forming a true partnership with another human being," (12&12 Step Four p.53)

Until, I got the Gift Of Desperation (GOD), and did the 12 steps, my relationships were chaotic and unmanageable. The AA program and the suggestions of a sponsor taught me what functional relationships were all about.

Here is a blog I wrote, about my relationships as an untreated alcoholic.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/rescuer-persecutor-victim-triangle/

When I was about five years sober, I became increasingly more addicted to sugary foods. So much so that I had to go to another twelve-step fellowship to overcome this problem. With the help of Overeaters Anonymous (OA), I managed to put down the sugar. Thinking I was now cured I stopped going to those meetings and just continued to treat my alcoholism in AA. This was a big mistake. Very soon an addiction to sugar became a problem again. Some years later, I went back to OA to find abstinence again. What came as a shock was how many alcoholics were dealing with an eating disorder in that fellowship. Well, at least I felt right at home. 

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/eating-disorders-and-alcoholism/

Overeaters Anonymous – USA

Overeaters Anonymous – UK

Food Addicts Anonymous – USA

Food Addicts Anonymous - UK

Disclaimer

Please be advised that I mention four twelve-step fellowships in this blog. They are completely unaffiliated with each other. Moreover, the opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent the ideas, beliefs, and practices of the twelve-step programs mentioned. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from addiction; in all its different forms. The suggestions I remain willing to take are leading me, an agnostic alcoholic and addict, to a happy and contented life.

Dear friends,

When I came to AA, I had a burning desire to stay sober. Yet, I continued to relapse for years! I struggled with coming to believe in any concept of an unseen higher power. For this reason, I avoided working the steps. God and a higher power are mentioned in six of them. This was a mistake that almost cost me my life. Then one day, I was invited to a talk given by a psychiatrist specializing in the treatment of alcoholism. His talk was a game changer in my recovery. I hope you enjoy the blog.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/getting-to-grips-with-a-higher-power/

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed in this blog do not necessarily represent AA's beliefs, opinions, and practices. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from alcoholism. The suggestions I became willing to take have led me, an agnostic alcoholic, to a contented and meaningful sobriety.

8 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I was inspired by reading p97 of the AA book. 

“Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drink as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail."

Tbh, I do it more to save myself from drinking, but it's also an amazing experience to see AA meeting start around the local community. 

When I moved to Isarn many years ago, there were no AA meetings. After a couple of years there were over 35. 

I had an article published in the Grapevine. If you want to read it, message me. 

Hi Neeranam. I would certainly be interested in reading your Grapevine article. Have a great 24!