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Andy F

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Posts posted by Andy F

    What is an agnostic in 12-step recovery?

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    You have a very rigid and fundamentalist understanding of the AA literature. Have you ever considered how many frightened and bewildered newcomers you are scaring away from AA with your kind of Big Book fundamentalism? ????  Let's be clear. Working all the steps, no matter how perfectly you work them, does not necessarily bring about a God awakening. If they bring about a spiritual awakening then that's good enough. ...... Or would you call that a half measure?? You keep saying "The AA way" Yes, your interpretation of the Big Book WAS the AA way but not anymore. Times have changed. "The AA way" these days is beautifully described in this AA conference approved pamphlet. This has now become "The AA way"

     

    https://www.aa.org/god-word-agnostic-and-atheist-members-aa

     

    In fellowship 

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    What is an agnostic in 12-step recovery?

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    50 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

    Indeed, but not a very good one, IMHO.

    If you are an alcoholic, half measures avail to nothing.

    "No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. We claim spiritual progress not perfection" - The half measures to which you are referring only applies to a 100% acceptance of step one. If we are willing to grow along spiritual lines (which doesn't necessarily mean believing in God), we are 100% on the program of Alcoholics Anonymous ????????????

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    What is an agnostic in 12-step recovery?

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    On 2/5/2023 at 9:17 AM, Andy F said:

    Well said Neeranam! ????????????

    Have you ever heard of tradition 3 mate. Clearly you are unaware, that "The only requirement for AA membership, is a desire to stop drinking" That includes atheists, agnostics and freethinkers that come to AA with a desire to stop drinking! Why we even welcome psychopaths and Narcissists. ❤️

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    What is an agnostic in 12-step recovery?

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted · Edited by Andy F

    On 2/5/2023 at 9:17 AM, Andy F said:

    Well said Neeranam! ????????????

    My word,........Do I hear some closed minded, rigid, fundamentalist BS on this platform. Read about James Burwell, an early member of AA who was also an atheist. Thanks to him, thousands if not millions of alcoholics, who despite the God word, have found a solution  in Alcoholics Anonymous 

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    What is an agnostic in 12-step recovery?

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    21 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

    This question doesn't make sense according to the AA text. One is not "IN" 12 step recovery unless they have DONE the steps. AA says one can be RECOVERED from alcoholism through doing the steps. According to the Big Book and 12 and 12 texts in order to do the second step a person would need to suspend their agnostic or atheist ideas and just become even willing to believe a Higher Power could help them. If one cannot even get past being even willing to believe, one cannot do the second step and thus NOT GET recovery that can be achieved through doing the steps.

     

    If an alcoholic is desperate enough to remain sober and open to suspend their old agnostic or atheist ideas and become even willing to believe a Higher Power could give them recovery they can then move on and do the remaining steps.

     

    I was atheist before i took the steps. I was desperate. I was even willing to believe a Higher Power could help me. I remained skeptical but did the 3rd step and to demonstrate I made the decision did the rest of the steps. Around step 7 I started having a spiritual experience. I started experiencing a Higher Power personal to me.

    I have been recovered ever since and practice steps 10, 11 and 12 regularly for the last 29 years.

     

    One can be "IN" the meetings of the fellowship. One cannot be "IN" the program. One either DOES or doesn't do the 12 step program.

     

    My words don't make sense to you because you see only your own personal interpretation of the Big Book and the 12 steps. This indicates a closed mind. My interpretation of the Big  Book makes perfect sense to me and has led me to a "non-God-centered" spiritual awakening. Your somewhat rigid and literal interpretation of the Big Book is not helpful to many alcoholics that come to AA. Many end up leaving AA because of the sometimes heavy emphasis on the God word. I had a recent conversation with the General Service Office of AA. They confirmed that the AA program is completely open to personal Interpretation. You are at liberty to interpret the Big Book in any way that works for you. Could you please kindly refrain from your somewhat self centered insistence that your interpretation of the AA program is the only interpretation. That kind of mindset in AA turns alcoholics away from AA because they see it as some kind of cult or quasi religion. How would you feel if I told you that your spiritual awakening in AA is invalid? Ever heard the AA slogan "live and let live" I'm 25 years sober in AA and am enjoying a happy and contented sobriety. To say that I can be a real alcoholic because I don't believe in God is utter fundamentalist nonsense. I tell vulnerable newcomers to steer clear of hard core "Big Book Thumpers" like you. You people are dangerous in Alcoholics Anonymous. Just for the record, I was a homeless and hopeless street drunk who recreated my life in Alcoholics Anonymous. Please enough of the preaching BS!

     

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    Alcoholics with co-exisiting sex addiction

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    4 minutes ago, BE88 said:

    I followed the thread of your discussion with azimorane however it seems to me that your two friends had many problems together, you maintain that it is mainly due to a sex problem but it may also have been another previous problem and therefore they were both subject to a premature end. Sex addiction exists and no one questions it but it can lead to a tragic and less obvious end. However, if his two friends died, it was clear that they had major psychological problems and the fact that they also fell into alcoholism and drugs confirms it. Everything cannot be blamed on just being addicted to compulsive sex.

     

    I agree wholeheartedly BE88. Neither of them were willing to work the 12 steps so they could get to the "causes and conditions" of their self defeating behaviours. I say this as someone who was also addicted to sex, as well as alcohol and drugs. The 12 steps gradually restored me to a feeling of wholeness I had never known be. My addictive behaviours gradually started to go into remission. Long may it last. Best regards ???? 

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    Alcoholics with co-exisiting sex addiction

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    Just now, ozimoron said:

    That doesn't like like evidence does it? It starts with experts disagree. That means there's no evidence that concludes it's harmful.

    It is for many sex addicts that's why treatment options are now available. I've seen it kill and drive people insane. That's all the evidence I need. You can defend your position all you want. People are losing their lives to it or problems directly related to it. It's a sunny day, let's go out and enjoy our day ????

     

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    Alcoholics with co-exisiting sex addiction

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    25 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

    Rubbish, it was all about their other addictions. Sex made them crazy but heroin didn't. Or the excessive alcohol. Try to understand just how out there that sounds. But again, if sex addiction was clinically harmful in any way, you'd be able to produce evidence but won't. That makes your agenda highly suspicious.

     

    You claim not religious but push the "spiritual" angle? How's that work?

     

    Check this out! https://a.co/d/cpFGnJ1

     

    Alcoholics with co-exisiting sex addiction

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

    OMG. I've had enough. Sex caused them toi become heroin addicts. OK, back to the bible for you,

    You have completely missed the point. Firstly, I'm not a Christian. Secondly, they were addicts and alcoholics BEFORE they became sex addicts. The sex addiction made their lives so crazy, chaotic and unmanageable that they went back to their original drug of choice. This is the nature of addiction. It doesn't matter a f...k what the addictive behaviour was. Whatever way you dress is up addiction is highly likely to kill you sooner or later as it did my two buddies. 

    Alcoholics with co-exisiting sex addiction

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

    I maintain they lost their lives to alcohol which is proved to be clinically harmful. You claim that sex addiction is mentally harmful and I'm calling you out. You now meed to produce a credible link to support your claim. Otherwise you are pulling opinions out of a dark place or the bible or somewhere equivalent.

    I don't need to look for evidence. The evidence was before my very eyes. The two buddies of which I speak went completely off their heads acting out on sex. They lost touch with reality and became so mentally unstable that they "could no longer differentiate the true from the false" Sadly, they both became very mentally and emotionally unwell. One jumped in the Bangkok river high on Yaba and drowned. The other OD'd on Heroin. Both were addicts and alcoholics in recovery that were utterly obsessed with sex

     

     

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    Alcoholics with co-exisiting sex addiction

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

    Still be alive? I first came to soi cowboy in 1980. If some kind of damage is going to happen it better kick in first because I'll die of old age waiting. I haven't had sex for al least 15 minutes now.

     

    What is a "compulsive sexually addicted act"? Serious question, I don't troll (much).

    My spin is this: A compulsively sexually addicted act is one which is mentally, physically and spiritually harmful to the sex addict. In stark contrast to sexually more healthy people, by it's very nature it is self-destructive. It became just that for my two AA buddies that lost their lives to it

    Alcoholics with co-exisiting sex addiction

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    15 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

    Sorry for the loss of your friends but they died from alcoholism.

    If they hadn't have picked up the first compulsive sexually addicted act, they may still be alive. What we are talking about here is the"spiritual malady" not an addiction to a substance or addictive behaviour. The term "alcoholism" is too narrow a term when defining the spiritual malady. It has to include addictions to all mind altering substances AND behaviours

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Is AA a religion?

    in I Drink Too Much Forum

    Posted

    15 hours ago, Neeranam said:

    It is not a religion at all. 

    It is not a self help group, the help comes from God, as you understand him. 

     

    AA success rate has plummeted in recent years as non-alcoholics are allowed to stay. These heavy drinkers can recover without God, alcoholics can't. 

     

    There have been many 12 step groups invented, based on AA. 

     

    Why don't atheists start a new program, rather than trying to change AA? 

     

    Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a ubiquitous recovery mutual-help organization that continues to arouse controversy, in part because of the program’s spiritual orientation

     

    John F Kennedy was maybe a good president but this is wrong. The help we need to recover does NOT come from each other. 

    I'm an agnostic in AA and am 25 years happily sober in AA. It was suggested by some God squad bleeding deacon on this platform that I can't be a real alcoholic if I don't believe in Hod. I was a homeless and hopeless drunk for years before I came to AA. What about Jim Burwell? He was an early member of AA that was an atheist. He was responsible for convincing Bill W to include "as we understand him" in steps 3 and 11. Moreover, because of Jim, Bill included the word "suggested" in Chapter 5 of the Big Book. "Here are the steps we took which are "suggested" as a program of recovery"

     

    As the result of working through the first 9 steps, I am the grateful recipient of a "non-God-centered" spiritual awakening. In the words of Dr. Bob, I try and keep the program simple. "Love and service to others" is the basis of my spiritual awakening. Check out Dr. Bobs Farewell talk online

     

     

     

     

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