Andy F

Dear friends of Bill. Here is a blog I wrote a while ago. It may be helpful to AA newcomers. I've called it "Honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness."

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/honesty-open-mindedness-willingness/

Disclaimer

The content of this blog is an AA member's personal experience. It is in no way representative of Alcoholics Anonymous

Dear friends

As an enquiring agnostic,  I became interested in exploring diverse spiritual systems to satisfy my thirst for a spiritual experience. In those early days of sobriety, I became something of a spiritual seeker. Well, at least I was in line with pertinent idea C  of the AA Big Book.

"God could and would if He were sought."

BB - Chapter 5 "How it works." p. 60

I hope you like the blog I wrote about it. I have called it "A Truth Seeker in Recovery"

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/a-truth-seeker-in-recovery/

Dear friends in recovery

As a drunk, both in and out of AA, I suffered from a "total inability of forming a true partnership with another human being," (12&12 Step Four p.53)

Until, I got the Gift Of Desperation (GOD), and did the 12 steps, my relationships were chaotic and unmanageable. The AA program and the suggestions of a sponsor taught me what functional relationships were all about.

Here is a blog I wrote, about my relationships as an untreated alcoholic.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/rescuer-persecutor-victim-triangle/

When I was about five years sober, I became increasingly more addicted to sugary foods. So much so that I had to go to another twelve-step fellowship to overcome this problem. With the help of Overeaters Anonymous (OA), I managed to put down the sugar. Thinking I was now cured I stopped going to those meetings and just continued to treat my alcoholism in AA. This was a big mistake. Very soon an addiction to sugar became a problem again. Some years later, I went back to OA to find abstinence again. What came as a shock was how many alcoholics were dealing with an eating disorder in that fellowship. Well, at least I felt right at home. 

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/eating-disorders-and-alcoholism/

Overeaters Anonymous – USA

Overeaters Anonymous – UK

Food Addicts Anonymous – USA

Food Addicts Anonymous - UK

Disclaimer

Please be advised that I mention four twelve-step fellowships in this blog. They are completely unaffiliated with each other. Moreover, the opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent the ideas, beliefs, and practices of the twelve-step programs mentioned. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from addiction; in all its different forms. The suggestions I remain willing to take are leading me, an agnostic alcoholic and addict, to a happy and contented life.

Dear friends,

When I came to AA, I had a burning desire to stay sober. Yet, I continued to relapse for years! I struggled with coming to believe in any concept of an unseen higher power. For this reason, I avoided working the steps. God and a higher power are mentioned in six of them. This was a mistake that almost cost me my life. Then one day, I was invited to a talk given by a psychiatrist specializing in the treatment of alcoholism. His talk was a game changer in my recovery. I hope you enjoy the blog.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/getting-to-grips-with-a-higher-power/

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed in this blog do not necessarily represent AA's beliefs, opinions, and practices. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from alcoholism. The suggestions I became willing to take have led me, an agnostic alcoholic, to a contented and meaningful sobriety.

8 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I was inspired by reading p97 of the AA book. 

“Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drink as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail."

Tbh, I do it more to save myself from drinking, but it's also an amazing experience to see AA meeting start around the local community. 

When I moved to Isarn many years ago, there were no AA meetings. After a couple of years there were over 35. 

I had an article published in the Grapevine. If you want to read it, message me. 

Hi Neeranam. I would certainly be interested in reading your Grapevine article. Have a great 24! 

Dear friends

I really enjoyed writing this new blog. Its called: "AA service work"

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/aa-service-work/

With regard to service work in AA, I was inspired by an article that Bill Wilson wrote for the Grapevine magazine in 1958. He gave it the title, "The Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety." It's available free online.

It helped me understand that with the help of the twelve steps, I can love and serve my fellow alcoholics as an agnostic. According to Bill, if service in AA is offered unconditionally, it becomes "The primary healing circuit." No need to believe in the traditional idea of God, to benefit from the transformative power of service.

Have a great day everyone!

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed in this blog do not necessarily represent AA's beliefs, opinions, and practices. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from alcoholism. The suggestions I became willing to take have led me, an agnostic alcoholic, to a meaningful and contented sobriety.

Dear friends

When I was quite new in my recovery from alcoholism, I noticed a quote in the AA literature which I found very unsettling. It is found in the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions," On page 53 in the chapter on step 4, is the following quote:

"The primary fact we fail to recognize is our complete inability to form a true partnership with another human being."

Was it true? In my case it certainly was. In recovery, I tried one relationship after another. Sooner or later they all fell apart. It was not a pleasant experience. Then I went through the twelve steps with a sponsor.  Gradually, I began to learn how to have more honest and functional relationships. I came to see that codependency was just one aspect of my untreated alcoholism. I hope you enjoy the blog I wrote about it.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/relationships-in-aa/

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed in this blog do not necessarily represent AA's beliefs, opinions, and practices. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from alcoholism. The suggestions I became willing to take have led me, an agnostic alcoholic, to a contented and meaningful sobriety.

I arrived in AA on the 15^th May 1984. It was wonderful to find myself in a group of people that were so similar to me. That said, I didn’t take the idea of getting a sponsor and working the steps seriously at all. Frequent references to God and a higher power made me wonder if AA was some kind of a cult. I tried to stay sober on fellowship alone. A decade later, only after several near fatal collisions with alcohol, I finally received the Gift Of Desperation. (GOD) The only thing I hadn’t tried was to get a sponsor. It was my last option; otherwise I was a lost cause. I asked David B to sponsor me and began following Good Orderly Direction. (GOD) This blog is in the way of a tribute to David B (R.I.P.) I have no doubt that his particular style of sponsorship, saved my life. I hope you enjoy the blog.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/david-b-a-top-gun-aa-sponsor/

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed in this blog do not necessarily represent AA's beliefs, opinions, and practices. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from alcoholism. The suggestions I became willing to take have led me, an agnostic alcoholic, to a contented and meaningful sobriety.

Dear friends

The eight bedevilments appear on page 52 of the AA Big Book. I was first introduced to them when I joined a Big Book Study. They are presented as symptoms of untreated alcoholism. I was 25 years in the fellowship before I learned about them. They came as a shock because they were as much my reality sober, as they were when I was drinking. Although I am still an enquiring agnostic, I came to believe that recovery from the bedevilments involved a spiritual, not psychological solution. A spiritual way of life has not required a belief in a monotheistic God.       

I hope you enjoy the blog

 https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/aa-bedevilments/

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed in this blog, do not necessarily represent the beliefs, opinions and practices held by AA as a whole. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from alcoholism. The suggestions that I became willing to take, have led me, an agnostic alcoholic, to a full and meaningful sobriety.

Second only to the AA Big Book, The Twelve Steps and twelve Traditions is an all important AA publication. On p. 57 in the chapter on step 5, Bill W, one of the co-founders of AA,  declares: "Almost without exception, alcoholics are tortured by loneliness." In early recovery from alcoholism, this was certainly my experience. 

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/loneliness-vs-solitude/

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed in this blog, do not necessarily represent the beliefs, opinions and practices held by AA as a whole. What I have shared with you are my own experiences of recovery from alcoholism. The suggestions that I became willing to take, have led me, an agnostic alcoholic, to a full and meaningful sobriety.

Dear friends of Bill

On page 53 of the 12 steps and 12 traditions, Bill W makes a statement that I found shocking. In the chapter about step 4, Bill writes: "The primary fact we fail to recognize is our total inability to form a true partnership with another human being."  Both drunk and sober, I had one dysfunctional relationship after another. Sooner or later, they all fell apart. My first ever experience of honesty in my dealings with another human being was with my AA sponsor. After going through the 12 steps with him, I began to discover what healthy love even was. I hope you like the blog I wrote about it.

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/recovering-alcoholics-in-relationships/

Dear friends.

Here is something that may appeal to those AA members that do not believe in God. 

They are just as welcome in AA as those that use a monotheistic God as their higher power

Have a great 24 hours everyone 

????????????

See attached:

Thank you so much for sharing that Scorecard. Your somewhat anxiety provoking experience illustrates a very important point. No one and I mean no one should impose their religious or spiritual beliefs on anyone if they don't ask for it and are not ready to hear it.

As in this case, it only distressed the young girls to be subjected to an onslaught of ideas that these girls didn't want or ask for .

This is pure religious fundamentalism and as such is not coming from a place of love but of fear. This raises the question, was the intention of this religious intervention in the girls best interests? Was it in the interests of their highest good? Of course not! It was in the self- serving interest of the two American women.

The same exact principle applies in AA. Never, ever shove God down a vulnerable newcomers throat when they are not ready to hear it. Any type of fundamentalism is driven by self-serving agendas and fear. How secure where these women in their faith, that they needed to kidnap these girls to validate their own beliefs at the expense of these girls?

If they were really secure in their faith, there would be no need to "use" these girls to validate their own fragile faith. Thanks again for sharing that story. Everyone on this forum needed to hear it! ????❤️????

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So it's your position that AA should change to accommodate them? 

 

I lot of guys come to AA and they think that because they have a "prescription", they should be able to smoke grass.  What about them? Should we change our standards to accommodate them as well?

 

Do we not already have enough institutions ruined in an effort to accommodate everyone?

 

To be clear, I have never seen any asked to leave AA because they were not "spiritual" enough, or even for smoking grass. As far as a Higher Power, I think the overriding attitude at meeting is; "fake it 'till you make it." 

 

While they may claim any number of things, far and away, most people leave AA because they want to get loaded. 

 

 

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. If God works for you then great! A lot of sober members in AA don't believe in God. They pursue a spiritual awakening that doesn't require a believe in God. Those that pursue Buddhism are a case in point. The bottom line is that Bill always wanted to make AA ALL INCLUSIVE.  The spiritual principle of AA is that EVERYONE is welcome. The believers, atheists, agnostics and freethinkers. "The ONLY requirement for AA .membership is a desire to stop drinking"

Any other position is not AA. It's fundamentalism. Why AA even embraces the AA fundamentalists. "Live and let Live" If I helped to convince a cynical newcomer that it's not compulsory to believe in God to get sober and stay sober, if my blog convinces them that there are a whole load of other higher powers in AA that are just as effective then it was worth writing. You're a member of AA if you say you are. Irrespective of your personal belief system. 

53 minutes ago, AP2019 said:

Andy I am glad you are sober. And congratulations on 25 years.  I am a member myself - over 15 years and sober for 13. I struggled in the rooms and with my recovery until I accepted God as my higher power. Respectfully, I submit that you are leading people astray by deviating from the program. As you mentioned God is in many of the steps and really all over the big book. For example...

 

Page 59 - Made a decision to turn our will and our live over to the care of God as we understood Him (Step 3)

Why?

Page 68 - We trust infinite God rather than our finite selves

 

Please do not try to reinterpret the program. Either work the program or call it something else. Personally I have seen too many people relapse after 10 or more years. What was the common denominator? They trusted in themselves, or the rooms, or their sponsor and brothers rather than infinite God.

 

Peace.

The General Service Office of AA in New York assured me that the AA program is open to "personal interpretation" I can assure you that many alcoholics have left AA or avoided trying the AA program because they felt unable to use God as a higher power. It is them that have been led astray by the sometimes rigid and closed -minded views of the more fundamentalist members

If your brand of AA is keeping you sober and happy that's great! As an agnostic in AA my higher powers are "Love and service" to the still suffering alcoholic. I do not impose any belief systems on my sponsees. I let them find their own way. If they clear away the wreckage of the past and become interested in helping other Alcoholics through love and service then that in my mind, is a valid spiritual awakening. No need to bring a monotheistic, anthropomorphic God into this. LOVE is the Higher Power that gets alcoholics well. 

Sorry, not interested. I am "happy, joyous and free" (BB p 133) as a sober member of AA. The twelve promises on pages 83 and 84 are good enough for me. These days, I wear my sobriety like a lose garment. I don't need the rigid, fear-driven slavery of Big Book fundamentalism. If you believe that AA is all-inclusive, then could you kindly refrain from projecting your particular brand of AA onto sober members that don't want what you offer. Most of us are happily sober. There is room in AA for everyone. The believers as well as the atheists, agnostics and freethinkers. Any other position is rigid and closed-minded. Where is the spirituality in that? 

An agnostic interpretation of the twelve promises found on pages 83/84 of The Big Book of AA 

????????????

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/the-promises-of-aa/

Thanks Tropposurfer.

It would certainly seem that the Big Book Nazis cannot tolerate anyone else's reality but the exclusive one they have created for themselves ????

in part three of an AA publication, Bill Wilson (the co-founder of AA) wrote an article for the Grapevine magazine. He called it; "The next frontier; emotional sobriety." He was 24 years sober when he wrote it. I hope you like the blog I wrote about it ????????????

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/the-language-of-the-heart/

Dear friends

Hope you like a blog that I wrote about a well known circuit speaker in AA - Clancy I (R.I.P. ????)

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/clancy-aa-speaker/

In fellowship

Andy F

https://aaforagnostics.com/

Hi brother, I'm afraid I can't pull a rabbit out of the hat for you but I also have dysfunctional kidneys. If you find a cheaper source of the product your doctor recommended, I would be very grateful for a heads up. Best wishes and good luck sourcing a better price ????????????

2 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

 

How is it that you think I'm scaring away newcomers? Have you heard me share in a meeting? Have you witnessed me sponsoring newcomers? (which I do frequently with success). How many active sponsees do you have?

 

I follow the Big Book instructions about how to help newcomers in the chapter "Working with Others". Do you know what it says? It expressly says to NOT talk of God or press spirituality at all in the first meetings with new people. It also says to talk primarily about drinking experience and experience with alcoholism first.

 

Again with criticizing my "understanding" of the literature. My understanding of the literature lines up with the many literature enthusiasts I study it with. The Primary Purpose groups. The Connect the Dots group. The Reconciled Group. The list goes on. There are a growing number of people in AA latching onto the text book for our society called the Big Book. The first 164 pages of the Big Book (the program portion) has not been changed since it's first edition in 1939.

 

Frankly I highly doubt you have studied the literature thoroughly. For instance this business about the "half measures" only applying to the first step. This is nowhere in the literature.

 

All the literature enthusiasts I know have been humble enough to become teachable and have someone show them and help them understand the literature. I am a self taught computer programmer and even I needed to be shown.

 

Come back and tell me when you've actually taken a day or two to go over the program with Big Book or 12 step program teachers such as Joe and Charlie or Bob D or Scott L. Then we can have an intelligent chat about the AA program of recovery.

 

Let me point out. It appears you or a few other "Agnostic AA members" have invented new terminology. Specifically the terms you throw around like "Non God centered spiritual awakening"  "God Awakening"  This is one individual (or perhaps these so called AA secular groups) making up terms and twisting the English language to support their views.

 

"God awakening" Where is that term ever seen in any of the AA literature?

 

Where is the terminology "Non God-centered spiritual awakening" .. I'll bet this stuff was developed by these so called "secular AA" groups that come and go.

 

Since we are using the English language lets just start off with the definition of the most important word in the AA program.

 

SPRITUAL:

1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Not concerned with material or worldly things.

 

So you see BY DEFINITION spirituality has to do with things that are not worldly. For instance Human beings are of this world. 

 

It's read at every meeting.

B) The probably no HUMAN power could have relieved our alcoholism.

 

By the way one pamphlet about the God word does not change the AA way of recovering from alcoholism. To change the AA way to recover they'd need to rewrite the first 164 pages of The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve.

 

 

 

"All fundamentalism is born out of fear" - Lord Soper. A British Methodist minister and peer of the House of Lords.

What are you so afraid of that you cling so passionately to your fundamentalist beliefs

You can't be that secure in your faith in God if you need to defend it so strongly. You're arrogant and dishonest enough to suggest that I can't be a "real alcoholic" if I haven't worked the twelve steps as per your rigid prescription.

You don't know me and you weren't there when I was a homeless drunk on the streets of London. It's doesn't get anymore dishonest then that! If I wasn't a real alcoholic, I wouldn't have kept relapsing for my first 13 years in AA.

For all I know, you were a white collar alcoholic with a good career? My career was alcoholism from when I was a young teenager.

I have now been sober in AA for twenty five years. At the moment I am sponsoring 4 people through the first 164 pages of the Big Book. Some of my sponsees believe in God and that's fine. I don't interfere with their belief system.

My higher power is now universal  consciousness. It is still also still the AA group and the suggestions of an agnostic-friendly sponsor.

Your difficulty with the expression "non God centered spiritual awakening" is also dishonest. How many spiritually awakened Buddhists are there in AA? As Buddhists, they don't believe in God. Does that make them any less spiritual?

When I encounter fundamentalists in AA, I know that they hide behind fundamentalism because they are not secure in their own belief system.

According to tradition 3, we both have a perfect right to be in AA. Lets us then just agree to disagree and "Live and let live"

Trust me Likerdup1, I'm a real alcoholic. I now have a life beyond my wildest dreams as an agnostic member of AA.

I love Bob D and Joe and Charlie but they never struck me as fanatic members of the AA God squad.

There are more and more secular groups forming in AA. These secular members may not have survived in AA without secular groups. Many of us are now old timers and definitely "real alcoholics." Most of us are enjoying a happy and contented sobriety.

My first sponsor told me that the third step decision is simply a decision to go on with the rest of the steps. In step 12 we are not promised a God awakening but a spiritual awakening.

In my mind, any alcoholic that tries to practise "Love and service" (Dr. Bob) in AA and is actively trying to overcome "Selfishness and self-centeredness" has, in my mind, had a spiritual awakening. This is true whether he believes in God or not.

Ever read "The dilemma of no faith" by Bill W? 

Have a great 24 brother!

PS. By the way, I don't agree with everything in the Big Book. I suppose that must mean I'm not a "real" alcoholic? ????