MangoKorat

On several occasions I've seen posts on here where members have stated that their landlords refuse to register TM30 for them. You don't need to get your landlord to do it.

Whilst going through some old documents I came across an English version of an amendement to the Thai Immigration Law in relation to TM30 registration.  I seem to remember I found it as a result of a fight I had with Korat Immigration over whether or not I needed to get the registered owner of my property to register my TM30. I was successful in getting Korat Immigration to back down and let me register.  The registered owner of my property lives 200km away and Korat required an 'in person' first registration - hence why I was prepared to fight.

I can't remember where I got this document from - but it was most likely from this site or its predecessor - Thai Visa.

The title on the document is: Immigration Act In the name of his Mejesty King Bhumibol
Enacted on the 24Th of February B.E. 2522 The 34Th year of the present reign
Wherease it is deemed proper to revise the Law on immigration

I have a title on it of: Thai Visa, Immigration and Property Info/781542698_ImmigrationActB.E.2522(1979)en-immigration.pdf - that seems to suggest that I obtained it from Thai Visa, the old name for this website.

I hold a registered Usufruct Agreement and my Thai lawyer advised me that as such, I am the House Master and the document appears to confirm that.  The document though, also conveys that status to anyone who is a tenant.

The URL for the document no longer works and it is not possible to post PDF's here. I would convert it to a jpg and post it that way but the entire document is 15 pages long so I'll just copy and paste the relevant sections. As I don't have a working URL, I cannot state that the information is official but I believe it to be so.  If you are having any problems with your immigration office regarding this issue, the English version should only be used as a reference point. To convince your immigration office, you may need to find the original Thai version.

I'd be happy to send a copy to any interested member by e-mail.

The relevant sections are 4 and 38. 4 deals with the definition of House Master whilst 38 clearly states that the House Master must register the occupant. Clearly you will need either a copy of your lease or your Usufruct to accompany the document.

From Section 4:

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

Section 38:

The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager
where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the
competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or
hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office
located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.
In case the house , dwelling place , or hotel where the alien has stayed under provision of Para.1
is located within the Bangkok area , such notification must be reported to the competent official at the
Immigration Division.
Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with
regulations prescribed by the Director General

10 minutes ago, Maestro said:

A general observation now, about a good source for Thai laws.

 

A decade or so ago the dean of the law faculty at Thammasath University pointed me to krisdika.go.th, the website of the Council of State, aka the Cabinet. This site had a database of Thai laws and Royal decrees that was easy to search, even for me who do not read Thai, and was always updated with the latest amendments. Moreover, it had also a repository of excellent English translations of the most important laws.

 

With the advent of the incumbent Thai government, krisdika.go.th now redirects to ocs.go.th/council-of-state/#/intro-page, which I find more complicated to navigate, but the texts of Thai laws are all there. The good English translations are sadly gone and are replaced with what I think are second rate machine translations.

I have some information that I believe may help people who are having problems registering for TM30.  However, its in the form of a pdf which cannot be posted on here directly - only as a link.  The link on the info no longer works.  I would convert it to jpg in order to post it but there are 15 pages. I am unsure where I go it from - it may even have come from AN but as yet I cannot find an alternative URL.

Do you think the sources you refer to above have will have English versions of the TM 30 regulations?

14 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

It is a handicap of people who learnt English as a foreign language. When I read something, I understand it the way it is written, usually giving no thought to what else the writer might really have meant. I'm afraid it will happen again, and again. It is an incurable handicap.

Those who learned English as a first language will understand the meaning of the term 'sarcasm is the lowest form of wit'.

I think we both know why you Mr Maestro, do your very best to dis whatever I post but we won't go into that again will we?

When I am wrong about something, I admit to it as soon as I become aware of the fact - whereas some people state that someone who has direct experience of a particular matter is talking jibberish.

If I was in a position to, I would never, for example, remove every post a member had made on a particular subject simply because I considered it as 'false information' - even though that member (and others) had actually experienced the matter in question.  Oddly, I have seen that done on AN.

1 minute ago, Maestro said:

 

Another thing I learnt today: when a link starts with the domain name asean.org, like for example the link https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf that was posted here, it is a link to an ASEAN NOW page.

Right, now I understand where all the confusion has come from.  I read https://asean and until this moment have failed to see that its actually asean.org and not asean now - my apologies.

However, you have both been banging on about me being an employee of a law firm after I stated that I wasn't. You also failed to recognise that I originally stated that I would accept that the law I referred to had been overridden when someone provided evidence that it had been. I have made it clear from the outset that the information I referred to was as I understood it from sources I researched and that to the best of my knowledge, sources that had not been superceeded by any officially provided source.

As soon as that evidence was provided I did indeed accept it.

2 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

Thank you. I learnt something new. A link that ends with .pdf, like the link 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf that was posted here, is not a PDF download. It is only when a reader clicks on it that it becomes a PDF download, ie a PDF file is downloaded.

I think you know exactly what I mean.  I was not prepared to do the search that I did many years ago when websites such as Asean Now didn't exist as it took me hours to find official versions of the laws.  So I did a quick one off search on Google and the link I provided from an AN page came up - hence my statement 'from our own website' which was then misconstrued as me being an employee of the firm.

I posted the link, I didn't even notice that it ended in .pdf.  It was simply the result of a Google search

Having posted the same information 3 times but still being told I posted something completely different. I give in Mr Liquorice - if I just say you're right on all counts, will you go to sleep?

3 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

No you didn't.

I most certainly did! Posted 5 hours ago, page 2, 3rd post down.

46 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

From our own website:

 

Section 14
A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the
nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who
acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain
his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality
within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in
the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.
If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is
reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father or a
foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is being
engaged in armed conflict, or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any
renunciation of Thai nationality.

 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf

2 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

By stating 'from our own website'.

Then posting a pdf download from Thailaw

I did not post a pdf download. I posted a link to an ASEAN NOW page that contained that PDF.

1 minute ago, Liquorice said:

By stating 'from our own website'.

Then posting a pdf download from Thailaw

Jeez...............................I explained that yonks back. Without looking back, I'm also sure that I stated I was not a member of that company.

3 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

That link is from Thailaw online (not our own website) hence the question from

Have I not made it clear that by our own website I was quoting the link?  In no way was I suggesting the information came from Asean Now - just that the URL pointed to it.

3 minutes ago, Maestro said:

to which you will hopefully have access as an apparent employee of a law firm.

Again?  Where have I said I'm a member of a law firm?

More importantly, why are you still rattling on?  I have accepted that the law has been overridden - should I await being shot at dawn?

8 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/nationality-act-acquisition-of-thai-nationality-sections-7-12/

Thanks for that it explains what I need but this is one of the reasons why I don't rely on information from commercial websites as fact:

An alien who possesses the following qualifications may apply for naturalization as a Thai:

• becoming sui juris in accordance with Thai law and the law under which he has nationality; having good behavior;
• having regular occupation;
• having a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years till the day of filing the application for naturalization;
• having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations.

Further down the document it states:

Should the applicant for naturalization as a Thai, under paragraph one, have children who are not sui juris in accordance with Thai law, and who have a domicile in Thailand, he may concurrently apply for such naturalization for his children. In this case, such children shall be exempt from possessing the qualifications under Section 10 (1), (3), (4) and (5).

Section 10 does not actually have numbered points, they are bulleted and there is only 4 of them.

9 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

That is a commercial website and that isn't a direct link to any info.

Yes and I've never understood how they get away with using that name.

11 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

This page, in fact.

https://aseannow.com/topic/981135-laws-regulations-police-orders-etc/

 

No, this was my post:

From our own website:

Section 14
A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the
nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who
acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain
his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality
within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in
the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.
If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is
reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father or a
foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is being
engaged in armed conflict, or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any
renunciation of Thai nationality.

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf

What is your point? Have I not, as I said I would, accepted that the previous act has been overridden?

15 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

In the case of a Thai Mother, who conceived and gave birth, there is absolutely no doubt the child automatically acquires Thai nationality.

 

Right, the reason I mentioned the importance of what constitutes citizenship was that many years ago in the UK for example, pregnant foreign women used to come to the country to have their baby.  That baby was (at that time - prior to 1983) entitled to British Citizenship and the parents would then make a Human Rights application in order to be allowed to stay in the UK. Many were successful.

That 'loophole' was closed and the constitutents of a citizen were clarified.  Since then a child must have one parent who is a British Citizen or someone with settled status. The child of either a British parent, either mother or father, is also entitled to British citizenship regardless of where they are born.

The Thai requirements must surely be equally as clear?

4 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

In this earlier post of yours in this topic you wrote "From our own website", you quoted an English translation of Section 14 of the Nationality Act, and you posted the link ttps://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf which leads to a PDF document in English entitled "https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf of ThaiLawas.com

 

Do I deduce correctly that you are an employee or co-owner of ThaiLaws.com but have not seen an updated version of Section 14 of the Nationality Act?

Not at all, I was refering to this website when I said 'from our own website'.

7 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_nationality_law#:~:text=Any person who is a,of the Thailand Nationality Act.

 

 

An interesting statement in that:

Dual national children: A major misconception is that a child born with Thai and a foreign nationality must, at the age of 20, choose to renounce their foreign nationality if they wish to remain a Thai citizen. However, Section 14 of the Thai nationality act actually does not force a renunciation, but merely gives a one-year window following that persons 20th birthday for renunciation. If no application is made for renunciation in that one year window, there is also no penalty for not making a ‘choice’.

That brings about the question of what the point of such a rule was in the first place - if one can simply ignore it and therefore not fall foul of it.

I don't believe that for a moment but I do know that to the best of my knowledge, that was in fact how it actually went - i.e. nobody actually had their citizenship revoked in such circumstances.

My entire point in all of this - and I made reference to this earlier is if the OP got entangled with an over zealous official.  It does happen:

I remember years ago when Thai women who lived abroad with their foreign husband and had acquired a passsport from their husband's country, would 'flash' both passports when entering Thailand.  The result being that the I.O. confiscated their Thai passport telling them they could not have both.  I actually saw that happen back in around 2003 at Don Mueang.  I was informed that they always got their passports back - apparently there was such a law previously but it had been recinded.

So yes, the I.O. that confiscated the passport in the first place was wrong to do so but it must have been a worrying time for the holder.

1 hour ago, Liquorice said:

https://www.admincourt.go.th/admincourt/en/law_detail.php?id=495

Official translation posted by the Thai Administrative courts - same PDF.

Thank you for that. It does indeed appear to overide the earlier acts, although surprisingly, it goes into very little detail.  To nit pick, I suppose there could be a question as to whether a child with a foreign father is considered to have acquired Thai nationality by birth?

Section 39. No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited
from entering the Kingdom.
The revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth shall not be permitted.

 I am surprised that an entire new constitution fails to determine what constitutes Thai Nationality and makes no reference to any law that identifies such a determination. At least, I can't find such references.

The previous acts went in to quite some detail on that matter.

36 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

You need to appear in person at an Amphoe to register in a Tabien Baan and receive an ID card.

No physical residency requirement thereafter and ID cards can be replaced/renewed through a Thai Embassy.

Just to be clear on that.  Am I understanding correctly that a child would have to be physically present in Thailand, go to the Amphur and be put on a Tabien Baan in order to get their first ID card and that an ID card is a requirement to obtain a passport? After that they can renew both ID cards and passports at an Embassy abroad?

6 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

But there has never any penalty imposed for not revoking Thai nationality in such instances.

 

That section of the Nationality is overshadowed by the 2017 Thai Constitutional Act.
Section 39 states; 

Section 39. No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom.
The revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth shall not be permitted.

https://cdc.parliament.go.th/draftconstitution2/download/article/article_20180829093502.pdf

 

So a Thai couldn't revoke his nationality even if he wanted to.

I'm not doubting what you have posted but I note that it is listed as a draft.

2 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

That is not a commercial website.

Commercial websites are the online presence of businesses with the clear objective of promoting products and enhancing visitor awareness. Their primary goal is to boost sales for the associated brand, and this objective is reflected in both their content and design.

It is not a Thai Government website - that do you?

3 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

55555

 

So all the different links that you have been provided are wrong or false?

 

But you provide no links, nothing and insist only you are correct.

 

It is easy for you to prove yourself right, post the official documents , you claim, that shows the Nationality Act (no4) 2551 and the Thai constitution 2017, are different, from what has been posted.

I have said from the start that people can believe or not - its up to them.  I have seen the official versions of the law that I believe is still in place. I also stated that I was not prepared to spend hours looking for copies as past experience has shown me that people will still argue with them if I do.

You are 100% free to believe the contents of any updated regulations, just as you are free to disbelieve those I have posted - I won't until I see an official version.

For me to accept that

6 minutes ago, VBF said:

So this whole conversation is hypothetical.  (Always was for me!)

That's that then.

Well not exactly.  I know of a few, including at least one member of this site, that already do exactly as I have suggested. Its not my idea.

The UK government make a lot of their own problems - like massive amounts of duty on some things that creates a black market in those products.

For a non biker, a bike and sidecar might be OK. However, as a biker, I just can't get used to the damned things, I try to make them lean around corners which gets me into all sorts of trouble - the passengers get a bit upset when I try that on a right hander.