MangoKorat

2 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

So easy answer, post those documents you speak of, then you can prove us, the lawyers, legal sites all wrong.

Regular members here know very well that they should not accept documents from so called lawyers and legal sites in Thailand.  I can think of at least one 'legal' company that advertises on Asean Now that doesn't actually employ any Thai lawyers.

OK, unless someone posts an official version that shows that the information I provided earlier has been updated and dual citizenship for children of mixed heritage is now allowed. I will not be posting further.

I have read the official version and the copy I posted on here - to the best of my knowledge they are identical.  I don't need to see an official version of that law because I've already seen it.  If anyone chooses not to believe it.......that's fine.

I am yet to see an official version that shows any relevant updates of the law.

I have spent far too long already arguing this point. Over and out.

3 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Sorry, I have no idea what you are expecting. The official documents are in Thai language, There will be no official English language version.

Actually, there are often English translations, especially when new laws relate to immigration matters.

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

 Here's one. 2008

 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Doc-21_Thailand187.pdf

What's the difference - it looks identical to me:

From your link:

Section 13
Section 14 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 as amended by the Nationality Act (No.3), B.E.
2535 shall be repealed and replaced by the following:
“Section 14
A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father or mother and has
acquired the nationality of the father or mother according to the law on nationality
of the father or mother, or a person who acquired Thai nationality under Section 12
paragraph two or Section 12/1 (2) and (3) is required, if he desires to retain his
other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai
nationality within one year after his attaining the age of 20 years, according to such
forms and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.
If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is
reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his
father, mother, or a foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases
where Thailand is engaged in armed conflict or is in state of war, he may order the
dispensation of any renunciation of Thai nationality.”

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

Here it is as amended in 2008:

 

https://www.refworld.org/themes/custom/unhcr_rw/pdf-js/viewer.html?file=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.refworld.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Flegacy-pdf%2Fen%2F2008-2%2F4a54695f2.pdf

 

It drops the part about renouncing Thai nationality if no declaration is made. I think this supports my earlier post in which I think it applies to children whose parent's other country prohibits dual nationality by providing a way to renounce Thai nationality.

Thanks for that but again, its not from a Thai government source.

There are mistakes all over the place. The UK government's website on travel to Thailand for example, contains several mistakes/out of date items.

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

However, there are many Thais with dual and multiple citizenships who are in very influential positions in the government and there are some grey areas in the law, but the status quo will not be changed. The 1992 Act changed many things.

I have stated from my first post that I am very aware that there are thousands that hold both passports.  I also pointed out exactly why I was warning the OP of this law.

However, I still await a copy of the 1992 act where the renunciation requirement was removed. Once I do, I repeat, I'll be happy to accept that my information is out of date.

7 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I owe an apology to MangoKorat. I've found an English version of the amendments to the Nationality Act that were implemented in 1992:

 

https://www.ecoi.net/en/file/local/1167851/1504_1218184631_nationality-act-no-2-b-e-2535.pdf

 

It does indeed require a declaration at age 20.

Oh, so you found a 1992 version that stated much the same?

Odd then that there are those here that are claiming that the 1992 version does away with the renunciation of citizenship requirement.

Thanks for that information (genuinely).

2 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 Yes. See my post above.

Thanks for that.  It could be though, that a superceded law exists. I'm just waiting for those who say there is to post it.

2 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

@Georgealbertalready posted an extract from a translation of the 2017 Constitution that says, "revocation of Thai nationality from anyone born Thai shall be prohibited."

 

You said you read the law "years ago" and posted a link that appears to be from 2016. So does your info post-date the 2017 constitution?

I posted a link from this website that contained a translation of a law that was initially enacted in 1965. I have no idea if that has been updated.

As I have said, if someone is prepared to post an actual revision of that law and the Thai version and that is different, I'll happily accept that.

I've seen far to many examples of wrong information over the years to believe anything other than that from an official source.

7 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

There is no provision in this clause for the loss of Thai nationality if such declaration isn't made.

 

My understanding is that this allows someone who acquires Thai nationality at birth, or by naturalization as a minor, to renounce Thai nationality in order to keep the citizenship of the parent when the parent's country of citizenship does not allow dual nationality. Otherwise the person with dual nationality may be forced to lose the nationality of the non-Thai parent. A bit strange that the clause only applies if the parent is the father, but this is an old law.

No, it does not 'allow' - it requires them to renouce their citizenship. That renunciation is then considered by the minister and provided there is no need of them for military service, the citizenship will be ended.

It is nothing to do with their father's country not allowing dual nationality.  It refers to childern born of a foreign father who hold their father's citizenship because of the laws of that country.

4 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

“A child of a Thai and foreign parent can have both nationalities as of birth (if the other nationality law permits the same). In Thai the child would be called a luk khreung (half child ลูกครึ่ง). A reference to being of a mixed race, or mixed cultural or national heritage. At the age of 18 or 20 (Thai legal age of majority) they do not need to choose between their nationalities according to Thai law. If the other country’s law is similar then you don’t have to worry, but don’t forget dual nationality relates to two nationality laws. Thus for Thailand they can keep both nationalities.

If the official version of that states the same, then the previous act may well have been updated.  However, for me, I would have to see the official version.  I've seen many occasions where so called Thai legal companies have given wrong information.

They also sometimes use information from proposals that were never actually enacted by Royal Decree.

Just remember that Thailand is not Farangland and there is very little comeback on lawyers who give wrong information.

That said, if the information is correct, I'll be happy to accept it.  All I am trying to do is provide correct information.

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you know there are more recent Nationality Acts than 1965?

So post them.

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Commercial website?

I am entirely confident that the content from the link I posted a few minutes ago from this website, is entirely consistent with the actual law that I read years ago.  My then wife, also read the Thai version to be sure the two versions were the same.

As a general rule AND as a long standing member here, you should be very aware that you should not believe everything you read on commercial websites.

As you will, or should be aware of.  There is one Legal Company that is regularly qouted on here and who's website contains several incorrect items on house ownership.  Another company uses a name/URL that makes itself sound like an official Thai embassy.  That website also regularly has wrong/outdated information on it.

On this occasion, I know that the content from the Asean Now thread is the same as that from the official source. I have nothing at all to gain from this and I didn't post it to appear clever.  I came across this information many years ago whilst my then wife and I were fighting a custody battle with her child's paternal grandparents.

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Commercial website?

As I CLEARLY stated, I'm not going to waste my time.  Clear enough?  Up to you whether you want to believe it or not.  If I spent hours finding the official location, you'd still argue with it.  I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Actually, I'm not going to spend hours looking for the law from an official source with an official translation, simply because the last time I did just that, there were still those who said its not true.

You can either believe it or not - personally I couldn't give a monkey's toss.

From our own website:

Section 14
A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the
nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who
acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain
his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality
within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in
the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.
If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is
reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father or a
foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is being
engaged in armed conflict, or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any
renunciation of Thai nationality.

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf

34 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

read this -  https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-dual-citizenship/

Again you post information from a commrecial website.

6 minutes ago, Highlandman said:

NOT true.

I knew it. There are always some doubters.  If I have time over the next few days I will find the information - the actual official source. However, I have absolutely no doubt that you'll also argue with that.

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/reclaiming-thai-citizenship/

 

This has links to the law. I'm a dual citizen so know what's going on. 

I stand by what I've written. I spent a long time reasearching this for a friend a few years back.  If you can point to the law that states you are correct, I'll be happy to read it and be corrected if I'm wrong.

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Not true. 

 

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-when-born-overseas/

I have been through all of this before - several times. Last time I checked, the law was still in place though it was also being ignored.

The URL you provided is a commercial website - please check the official Thai government documents if you want to know the law. You cannot rely on commercial websites for official rules.

4 minutes ago, VBF said:

Well so far you've avoided being caught out, mainly as you say, due to HMRC and the like being short staffed.

BUT whenever you enter UK "they" do have access to your passport - remember scanning it at the airport?

(Unless your "back door" avoids that, in which case I'm either calling BS, or suggesting you're making yourself vulnerable on another front)

 

So if they were to suspect anything amiss, HMRC, DWP and Home Office can and almost certainly do exchange information.

Plus if an investigation is opened they can apply for access to your bank account(s) credit card(s), Council Tax records (to which you alluded earlier) etc etc.

 

So what you're really saying is you know you're breaking the rules but are gaming the system, so far successfully.

Good luck to you  but IMO, you're riding for a fall that might just come out of the blue one day and bite you in the nether regions (pardon my mixed metaphors)

 

My only other comment is I hope you don't fall foul of HMRC - I got investigated some years ago for no fault of my own, and eventually exonerated...but it took 2 years of arguments and digging up records, letter writing, accountant conversations  that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

 

Sweet dreams!  '🙄😎

 

You clearly failed to read my post detailing the 'back door'.

You also failed to spot, im several posts, that I have not retired yet and therefore haven't broken any rules.

Further, I am aware of the powers available to HMRC, I also had a tax investigation a few years back - which resulted in no further action.

OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here and no, I'm not going to spend hours looking for the English version of this but.......

I am very aware that there are literally thousands of kids/women that hold both British and Thai passports.  I believe women married to a foreigner can keep both nationalities but according to the law, which is ignored but to the best of my knowledge has not been changed, a child of mixed parents (foreign father) who reaches a certain age, and from memory I think its 20, must choose which citizenship they wish to keep. If they wish to keep their foreign father's nationality, they must renounce their Thai one.

I repeat, I know very well that thousands keep both. I'm just raising this to advise the OP to tread carefully if he comes up against any further resistance to renew his kid's Thai passports.  Any over zealous official involved who knows the actual law and wants to 'win' - could quote the law, providing of course that the kids have reached the required age.

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

Whilst I agree that Dover Beach is an open door with many benefits for some, I would love to know which  "Back Door"  @MangoKorat is referring to!

 

Guys, its not a secret.

A British Citizen can travel to Northern Ireland without a passport.  Some airlines want a passport - some will accept another form of photo ID.  I travelled there in 2015 by car/ferry and wasn't asked for any ID at all.

From Northern Ireland you can then travel to the South and not pass through a border. There is no requirement for a British Citizen to use a passport to travel to Ireland (Eire) as its part of the Commom Travel Area. Onwards to your destination through Dublin Airport where the passport authority is Irish and not UK.

Note that if you travel directly (as in not through Northern Ireland) between the UK and Ireland by air or sea, if you are a British Citizen your carrier will require photo ID - what that is is up to them and I believe that most WILL require a passport.

Both UK and Irish passport authorities maintain border control through their external borders - external to The Common Travel Area.  You cannot travel into either the UK or Ireland from outside the Common Travel Area without a passport. So its not a route that illegal immigrants can use.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government-in-ireland/ireland-and-the-uk/common-travel-area-between-ireland-and-the-uk/

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

If you have the means to bypass passport control, then you should not be at all concerend about the lack of additional few ££ from annual state pension increases!

 

PH

Why?  You don't bypass Passport Control, provided you don't travel by air, there isn't one - not as such.  That does not mean there are no checks whatsoever. The last time I travelled, I simply drove off the ferry.  There were people standing around with uniforms on who might have checked the odd car or passenger but there is no requirement for a British Citizen to use their passport to travel there.  Crossing the next border into the EU is a simple drive down a motorway.

I have heard that in the past, there have been checks on the roads due to security alerts.

6 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Some might say arming the police will inevitably result in more deaths,  but as those deaths will involve criminals I don't see a problem with that. 

Thank you Mr Duterte.

I can't answer you question but I would just caution.  My Thai bike and car licences both expired at the same time in 2022. I'd been unable to renew them as I was not in country and travel had been difficult due to Covid.  I was told as they'd expired, I'll have to take a test again and that it is more involved than it was the first time.  Initial online application ..................................................