Mike Lister

It sounds like you are on fairly safe ground with all of that.

The following may help you: GIFT TAX 67) First and foremost, our confidence levels that we understand all the Gift Tax rules is not high. What the Rules Say 68) The TRD does not consider what the purpose is of remitted funds, only whether they are assessable or not. If a foreigner remits non-assessable funds and then gifts them in Thailand, that is the end of the matter for the gifter. 69) If however the foreigner remits assessable funds to Thailand and then gifts them inside Thailand, those funds must be reported as assessable income on the foreigners tax return, no matter that they are later gifted. 70) The third scenario is not agreed by everyone and is contingent upon further input from the TRD. It suggests that if the foreigner gifts offshore assessable income, direct to a Thai resident, the foreigner must report that income as if they themselves had received it directly. 71) "PIT is levied on gifts given by persons who are still alive. The tax is collected on the assets or the amount given to parents, ascendants, descendants, spouse, or others based on the value of the gift that exceeds a prescribed threshold, which depends on the type of gift and donor. Assets or amounts given that do not exceed the threshold are exempt from tax. 72) The following gifts are exempt from PIT: a) Income derived by a parent from the transfer of ownership or possessory right in an immovable property without any consideration to a legitimate child, excluding an adopted child, in the amount not exceeding THB 20 million throughout a tax year in respect of each child. b) Maintenance income or gifts from ascendants, descendants, or spouse, in the amount not exceeding THB 20 million throughout a tax year. c) Maintenance income derived under a moral obligation or gifts made in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with established custom from persons who are not ascendants, descendants, or spouse, in the amount not exceeding THB 10 million throughout a tax year. d) Income from gifts in the case where the person who receives the gifts will use them for religious, educational, or public benefit purposes according to the intention of the donors under the criteria and conditions referred to in the Ministerial Regulations. 73) Gifts in excess of the above thresholds will be subject to PIT at the rate of 5% and will not need to be included together with other income when computing the annual PIT liability. 74) For ascendants/descendants the threshold is THB 20 mill, nor non-ascendants and descendants, it's THB 10 mill". What Some Members Think: 75) The following summary points compiled by a member may help guide readers in the use of Gift Tax: a) Gifts must be traditional gifts based around a fixed date or occasion. b) Traditional gifts include supporting the spouse or other persons, mainly family, based on a moral obligation. c) Gifts to non-family members are more likely not to meet the moral obligation criterion. d) A ceremonial act may be required, in particular for non-spouses. e) Gifts must not be returned to the donor and used as a way to avoid income taxes, except under very specific Gift Tax rules which are likely to void the earlier tax advantage. f) Moral obligation is subject to interpretation, there is no single definition. g) TRD may apply additional criteria. h) TRD assessment may differ from self-assessment which risk must be evaluated in each case individually. 76) Additional points on this subject are: a) Funds that are gifted, must be for the use of the person to whom they are gifted. b) Gifts can be revoked later and reclaimed, under specific circumstances, such as if the receiver of the gift defames the Gifter or fails to take care of their serious medical needs. c) Gifts to a spouse become Sin Suan Tua or the sole property of the spouse, under marital law the gift is not regarded as conjugal property. d) Gifts made outside Thailand appear to be safe. e) The Gift must be formally documented and recorded, the more documentation the better. f) No more than THB 20 mill should be remitted to Thailand per year, unless 5% Gift Tax is paid on the balance. 77) Until the circumstances surrounding Gift Tax and all it entails, becomes more clear,, it is critical that anyone wishing to use Gift Tax, seeks professional advice.Note: Because Gift Tax is predominantly a domain of the wealthy and depends to a large extent on local practice, there is a shortage of confirmed information on this subject. One field of thought is that Gift Tax cannot be used to escape Thai tax by Gifting untaxed money from overseas. On the other hand, many Western countries, including the UK, do not tax gifts from overseas. Members wishing to exercise this option should seek qualified advice before using this option to Gift untaxed funds.

2k baht x 40 million is less than half a percent of GDP!

Possibly, I don't know about that. At some point the issue of who must file under what circumstances, will get addressed, I am certain of that.

There is a potential fine of 2,000 baht but nobody is aware of anyone who has been made to pay the fine. The other risk factor for not filing is that it exposes the taxpayer to back audits for the past ten years, instead of the normal three years for people who have filed. I expect the situation regarding who must file, to be clarified at some point.

The TRD wouldn't necessarily know that you'd gone over 179 days. A spouse filing separately doesn't imply anything really about the other person. My wife files every year whereas there are years when I don't file, it just means I wasn't required to file, under their rules.

Respectfully T&G, several members have grown very tired of this debate and have asked that we discuss other aspects of tax, which is just fine by me, I hope it with you three also. I've put up the question that I would like answered to provide me with confidence in the correct answer regarding whether to file or not. Can I suggest we now close down the topic....I at least will bow out of any further comments on this subject, until my question is answered.

Agreed on all points. The issue however is that if China is trying to cut corners and save money, the switch to alum will depress the price of copper or even cause it to fall. Such a move brings back memories of their foray into plane building in the 1970's. They bought Boeing but thought the spare parts prices were too high so they copied the parts, to save money. After several high profile plane crashes, the parts contract was reinstated. On that basis, I wouldn't be too quick to move out of copper yet. Those things said, I'm somewhat skeptical about your idea that noodle soup might be a suitable substitute for silver, I shall buy a small allocation of noodle soup futures regardless.

Just so there's no doubt about the question that needs to be answered: "I have Thai assessable income of 500,000 baht, which is well above the minimum assessable income filing threshold. But I have combined TEDA and tax free allowances of 500,000 baht (including the zero rated band) which I calculate means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a tax return?"

I had included the zero rated band as part of TEDA (which technically it is not of course) but yes, after all deductions and zero rated exemption.

Once again, I don't give tax advice to anyone, only information from reliable and verifiable sources so that people can make their own decisions....but you've always known that.

I can agree to that, until such time as there is unquestionable and verifiable proof, one way or the other, from an authoritative source. The question needing to be answered being: "I calculate that I have assessable income of 500,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return?" Agreed?

How about a competition of restraint? The first person to post against another poster in the thread, leaves the debate for one week. I think we all understand very well what is meant by posting against another poster, there's zero need to spell it out. By all means disagree with the opinion of another poster but don't negatively personalise your response in any way. Agreed?

I'm sorry I can't. It basically says that the Chinese state is substituting cheaper aluminum for copper, on a large scale.

The letter I would like to see, which may help convince me, is something along the lines of the following, and this will answer your question also. Dear Tax Consultants, I'm trying to understand if I need to file a tax return in Thailand. I calculate that I have assessable income of 500,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return? Luv If I can see something in writing from a reputable well known tax consultancy that answers that question, I will accept the answer, as long as it's clear and definitive. Now, a question for Jim before I get back to my painting: If you get called into the TRD offices to talk about your return, the one where you said common sense/stupid etc, is there a special review team that deals only in common sence or do you just get assigned the normal investigators?

Nope, nobody has ever said all that and you can't prove prove showing they have. What has been quoted is TRD regs regarding the point at which tax residents must acquire a TIN, 60 days after exceeding the assessable income level.....no more, no less.

It's Groundhog Day again! The operational practicalities of the case are not proven, there is no independent evidence to state that his assessable income level was exceeded. When somebody says they were, "well over the assessable income level", the difference between the 220,000 baht income threshold level and his probable TEDA level of 500,000 baht, is only 280,000 baht, that's only USD 7.7k which is not a huge amount. So it's difficult to be "well over", I think you'd agree. Tax returns All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

Not yet! "what is proven is that it is not a fact that every Expat must lodge a tax return if they exceed the assessable income level (60K for a single person)". There are two parts to what you wrote above T&G, the first is whether or not the statement is a fact and the second is whether it is actually required in practise, the latter is what we're attempting to prove currently , because it has huge implications for many members. In the first part, the TRD and Big 4 rules state we must file a return where the assessable income levels exceed the threshold, that is fact that has been quoted and requoted far too many times. In the second part, the questions exists whether operationally, the TRD does not require such a return to be filed, where no tax is due. To be crystal, this is where the assessible income levels have been breached but the applications of TEDA would mean no tax is due. That is the sole difference between us and this is not yet proven. I was hoping your proof from tax consultants might help clarify that issue but it has not, that was why many of us wanted proof of what was said. .

Whatever! Thank you for posting confirmation of what you said earlier. It does indeed appear that your tax affairs have been examined by reputable tax accountants and they have confirmed that you do not need to file a tax return, because no tax is due. There must be many members who also do not have assessable income that exceeds the threshold, in which case, they also do not need to to file. I think what that confirms is, and I'm grasping at straws here, that at least one tax accountant understands the same rules that everyone else understands, other than that, I don't see any great revelation or change to our understanding on any front. Regarding the forum rules - I attach a link in case you also wish to become familiar with them. https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

You have quoted this unnamed source several times which I think appears to contravene forum rules since this topic is within current affairs and a member is portraying things as fact. You're not being asked to give up state secrets, nor surrender privileged information, only to substantiate the many things you have been repeating: 5. You will not use ASEAN NOW to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Topics or posts deemed to be scaremongering, deliberately misleading or which deliberately distort information will be removed. In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source.

That is true in practise.

It is easily possible but the question is whether they would track you or find out, which seems very unlikely. The key issue for most people is whether they are prepared to file a tax return that doesn't include those transactions or indeed not file at all when technically they maybe should have. If those transactions were limited to just the occasional withdrawal, there's unlikely to be a problem ever. But if you're going to fund your year round existence in Thailand that way, that's probably risky because somebody might ask how you are supporting yourself.

Your understanding of what I understand, needs to better understood!

You're not being asked to share the advice, only the name of the company. I think posters want to judge for themselves whether these alleged accredited tax experts are really that, and not just somebody you emailed and selected using a pin and a phone book!

I don't know why you are so surprised that your local tax office in Kanchanaburi had no information about the rule change for you, what did you expect? The TRD made one small policy change, last September, to one rule regarding remittances, that impacts the filing next January.....the principles involved in that change are well understood. TRD has said the forms are being redesigned and will be made available later in the year, much more than those things, there is nothing left to explain. Regarding worldwide taxation: do you seriously expect the average Thai person to understand the concept of worldwide taxation and how that fits in overall? Most AN members weren't aware of the concept, before it was mentioned in this forum so I'm certain that most Thai's wont understand it. Heck, until eight months ago, most forum members didn't think they had to pay tax in Thailand on funds remitted here, let alone having to pay tax in the future on funds that are earned in another country.