Mike Lister

We heard months ago that each of the District offices is recruiting one lawyer per, to deal with DTA related issues, we came across somebody who had applied for the role....details found in Part 1 of the thread, somewhere!

The CG is based on the initial cost of the asset rather than any subsequent date. When remitted to Thailand, the gain is taxable according to PIT tables, rather than any CG rules. The argument is whether that CG is taxable at all in Thailand, according to others it is not, because it is excluded under Por161/2. I disagree, I believe the CG is taxable when remitted, for me, nothing is unclear.

That all sounds very like you don't know and are guessing and suggesting you impose your own rules once again, is that the case?

Answer in two parts, here....second part above, yes, the latest we have on remitting capital gains comes I believe from a TRD meeting which contradicts the sherrings statement hence the tax guide was changed accordingly.

Wondering why they would use the intermediary in your example and not remit direct to hospital. But whatever, I think that sort of pass through arrangement is probably OK, as long as receipts/invoices available.

Por 162/163 are the new rules that affect remittances to Thailand. Por 162 says that income earned before 31 December 2023 is exempt. In an earlier discussion elsewhere, some posters feel that overseas stock investments in the markets are really only savings and can be remitted free of Thai tax. I maintain those investments are not savings and that they are subject to capital gains. Unless the investments were sold before 31 December 2023, they are subject to Thai tax when remitted. Others disagree and see everything as savings and/or exempt under Por 161/162. Note TRD rules state that remittances of CG comprise capital and gain and that the two elements can't be separated and remitted at will with the owner stating it is one or the other.

That's just one of the TEDA, there are others that will take an older person up to over 550k baht.

I think people care less these days about image, the reports posted very recently regarding conditions in the International Departures Detention Center sound appalling.

I have no greater say than anyone else in what gets removed or edited, if you want it reinstated, go ask for it yourself. Perhaps if you stop making personal remarks, your posts won't get removed in the first place. So, the answer to my question is, regarding property portfolio's, are they exempt under Por161/162 also, in your opinion?

I like to think what you say is the case but TBH I have no information on it whatsoever.

I agree, I do not believe for one moment there is an opportunity to revalue the asset subsequently, except at the time of sale when the gain is calculated. Furthermore, I do not believe there is an opportunity to forgive the value of the asset under any decree. If you see things differently, please do say. It's just that I don't believe the intent of Por 161/162 was to ignore everything that existed prior to the end of 2023, if it was they would have said so. EDIT TO ADD: for the avoidance of doubt.....I'm not trying to be right on this, only to find the right answer, preferably without the name calling!

"I maintain that financial investments you had on 31 Dec 2023, including unrealized capital gains, are tax exempt under the one-time decree protecting remittances of pre 2024 foreign source income". @JimGant Even the property portfolio that you own, you know, those financial investments that would incur capital gains when sold but are really only savings in disguise? Or is that because the gain is not realised until the investment is sold, that no income exists, ergo ,it cannot be exempt under Por 161/162

I can't help much with this one I'm afraid, I can give you a theoretical opinion but that's all and it's probably not helpful. Some random points: The funds came from an investment account this year but the payments in to it were made last year so there may or may not be some relief under Por 161/162.....that is exactly the point I'm trying to bottom out currently. The upside is that any tax paid is likely to be capable of being offset against any that is due in Thailand. I can't speak to how the DTA may offer some relief because I have not read it. Do you still have a chance to not be Thai tax resident this year, if so, that may be an option to consider? Sorry I can't help more with this, the Por 161/162 relief looks like the most hopeful route.

Anyway, back on this savings issue: If savings dated pre 31 December 2023 are free of tax when remitted to Thailand, some think this statement includes "savings" that are held as stocks and shares investments. I don't see how that can possibly even be a starter. The investment is exactly that, an investment, its value is not known until it is sold and a capital gain is realised. The value of savings is known because the principle is multiplied by the interest rate, voila, but not so a CG investment! Sooooo, you hold stocks in mid 2023 (or earlier) and in January (or later) 2024 you sell them, are they tax free when remitted to Thailand....how can they be! EDIT TO ADD: The above is not to say that some TRD offices may decide to say that everything owned pre 31 December 2023 is tax free, but thus far the rules don't say that. Thus far they say only income is tax free and since the CG is not realised until the stocks are sold, that's not yet income if sold in 2024.

Agreed, completely. This is the problem with deciding your own accounting method, some may agree, some will not, eventually many use different ones, some will win, others will loose. The Thai's are unlikely to take the issue to court and the farangs are not likely to be successful, the uncertainty could exist for a long time without anyone being able to resolve it. There is no incentive benefit for the TRD to arrive at a standard.

Yes, that's correct. The 60k is the Personal Allowance.

I didn't understand your post. Please confirm: You are Canadian who lives in Thailand? You receive your pensions from Canada? The NR5 is a Canadian form that allows you to be taxed as if a Canadian resident? You pay zero Canadian tax? From a Thai tax perspective, what matters is how much assessable income you remit to Thailand, the NR5 letter doesn't mean much in Thailand, other than to confirm you don't pay Canadian tax which probably doesn't interest Thailand, unless you invoke a DTA.

I am not just a little inflexible, I am extremely so, especially when I say things such as, I filed tax returns because I was required to do so by law. Even though the same posters tell me repeatedly, over many months, that I didn't need to, I don't relent and finally take their side and agree that I was wrong, despite the continuing onslaught of criticism, I hold my ground. You can do that sort of thing, when you are certain of your facts. Similarly, when you don't watch an embassy tax video and explain why, there's little point in changing your story to agree that you should have watched it, even when reminded that you didn't some ten times or more. Some of us are comfortable and secure in the knowledge that we have and only find it necessary to deal with an issue once, rather than regurgitate it constantly in the hope the answer will change.

There is a disagreement between some members as to whether funds used to buy stock market investments such as stocks or equities is considered to be savings. I maintain the two things are very different and that savings are only considered savings, as long as they have not been used to buy something else, if they have, they change their form and become something else. Others disagree and have said I am scaremongering! For the most part, stock market purchases involve either short or long term capital gains which is only realised when the stock is sold. Savings on the other hand remain liquid, subject to any time deposit constraints. I appreciate that different jurisdictions may view this issue differently hence I have only looked at the UK position on this. The HMRC example below clearly spells out the difference, savings and investments in stock purchases are very different animals. https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/cgt/84e4d0f2-0b73-ee11-a81c-00224800f95d https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/072313/investment-tax-basics-all-investors.asp I'm happy to be contradicted on this point but the proof I am not correct, needs to be conclusive.

The last I read on this suggested it was one of the best investments a person could make because the effective rate of return pof a delay is so high.

A lot will depend on the extent of the UK tax return, the tax bands are different between the two countries. As a base principle, the UK State pension will not be taxed again in Thailand but it is not impossible to think their might be some adjustments made as a result of the different tax bands. For example, the UK personal allowance will be ignored here and replaced by a corresponding TEDA which is very similar but not exactly the same.

I'm sorry you were unable to understand what I wrote but that's the full and complete explanation. The first quote was intended to humorous but is indeed based on fact. The penalties for tax evasion are extremely harsh and do involve jail time, those things are well documented and understood. The second statement was retrospective look at past behaviour which I feel certain many expats may now wish they had handled differently.

UK State Pension arises in the UK and would be taxable there, if it exceeded the UK Personal Allowance. The UK State Pension is also NOT considered to be exempt income in Thailand and may be taxable here, subject to the usual caveats.

If you're not able to understand what I've written, in the way it's intended, then you need to put me on your ignore list.

Unlimited amounts, if declared to customs on arrival or departure