Mike Lister

Nobody is suggesting that savings will be regarded as income. The discussion is about how to distinguish between what is savings and what is not and how. And unless I missed it, there is no confirmation that the TRD uses FIFO for anything, apart from retirement and redundancies, ergo, no, you are not cleared to decide your own accounting rules and expect that the TRD will bless them all! "The value of your portfolios on 31 Dec 2023, if remitted in part or in whole, will be tax exempt in Thailand". It should be noted, for the avoidance of doubt, that this does not include unrealised capital gains.

Silly man! The question was asked how Thailand taxes people currently, not what the aspirations of the Revenue Director are for the future. Thailand CURRENTLY taxes income on the remittance basis, there is only a recommendation that they MIGHT change that to the worldwide basis in the FUTURE. IF and WHEN that happens, is completely unclear. Whilst it has been reported that, "The department is now working to amend the law based on the principle of worldwide income", any such change requires a change in the law and parliamentary approval, none of which the Revenue Director can do on her own and all of which will take time, potentially years.

Small caps are renowned for volatility and markets this year have been excessively volatile. Also, small caps typically rise in advance of their larger counterparts, just before the markets rise overall. The chances of a sustained upwards increase in markets in extremely unlikely, given the US markets are already 20% over priced. Whilst the investment banks have increased the upper limit of the S&P this year to as much as 6k, their year end figures are as a low as 4,800. The question now is not whether or not markets will correct this year but whether they will crash or correct.

I agree with the above post, it spells out how many of us feel I suspect. Its not the individual actions so much as it is the constant uncertainty and change on every front. At some point, in old age, some of us could find ourselves needing to make major lifestyles adjustments, just because a new government official had a brain fart.

Surely you jest! Since when and where was Thailand ever known for planning anything correctly over long periods? Planning is just not something they do, getting lucky is what they do, from time to time.

How old are you Ralf?

Once again, the funds are either savings or they are not, if they are, they are free of tax. You must state what your remittance comprises, savings or investment income and the tax picture will fall out of that declaration. If all you have is capital gains income, remitting it in a year when you are boit Thai tax resident, means it is not taxable here.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, if that suits you better.

Look at it differently. You have a capital gain of 1,000 on an investment of 1,000 and you decide to remit 50% of the total to Thailand. Assuming the gain was realised after 1 January 2024, your entire remittance is assessable income, you don't get to cherry pick and decide whether you're remitting capital or gain. Each remittance comprises capital and gain until the entire investment has been remitted.

All of it.

Yes, that's more likely

You don't have to be a genius to figure out that reclaiming tax paid on interest is only one half of the tax return equation reporting income is the other which was conveniently overlooked by most people. Whether or not the Revenue expected people to do that is highly debatable but foreigners were happy to ignore the other 50% of that equation. Now they realise that was actually a very very risky game. The cars and houses that were paid for using current year investment and pension pot income (tax free 25%), many will now realise it was quite scary to behave that way.

I don't believe for one second that Thailand is inclined to even consider that. I also don't believe, in the highly unlikely event that they did, that the fallout would be anything like what you have suggested.

180 days Money bought in after 1 January 2024 must be assessable income, not juts money. Income that remains outside Thailand is not assessable to Thai tax, only remitted income is.

A significant proportion of the expat community relies on the monthly income method to extend their permission of stay every year. Not all of those people will be using exempt income, I know from previous discussions that many of those people remit their pensions directly to Thailand each month, just as I do. The threshold to file a return is 60k/120k/220k baht of remitted assessable income, even in a best case scenario that is only GBP 5,000 per year before a return should be filed. Many of those people should have filed a return each year, in previous years, but did not.

Honestly I have no idea on this one but I can maybe help with an older interpretation from a previous life. Whether or not funds are savings will be determined by how the funds are held and any time related restrictions on them, and whether their redemption or withdrawl value is increased by any form of income or interest, either periodically or at maturity/ transfer/account closure. Once again sorry, that's the closest I can get to that one, perhaps others can chip in.

The term "paid away" is in common usage and means paid into a separate account, which of course disallows for compound interest. The issue with paying interest into the same account as the principle is commingling, the treatment of which remains unclear.

At this stage our interpretation is black and white, until such time as the TRD says otherwise. And remember also, these interpretations are based on the tax payer being asked to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that the funds are indeed savings. If your funds are on deposit, regardless of with whom, they are generating income and as such are regarded as income generating rather than savings, unless the principle and interest are clearly separate, as in the interest is paid away. But if the interest is paid into the account containing principle, it gets into the area of commingled funds and the way in which remittances from such accounts are treated. 100% safe and clear is savings that generate interest where the interest is paid away, the principle in that example is clearly delineated. The fact the investment is with a peer to peer lender, rather than a banks, is nor really relevant..

It was recorded in a Q&A somewhere, I'll have to do some digging to determine the source, as I recall it was the expat video series. The CG could only be re baselined to 31 December 2023, if the shares were bed and breakfasted on that date. If however the shares were held contiguously since purchase, it's the purchase date that counts. I believe that Mike Teave is up to date on this, in the UK there is a now a 30 day wait period before bed and breakfast can take effect so that had to be built in to the equation.

To be clear......your stock value per 31st December 2023 is still stock and is not savings. The CG is measured from the date the asset was first acquired and is not re-baselined once again at 31 December 2023. eg. you spend $1,000 and buy stock in 2015 and sell it in February 2024. Your CG is measured from 2015, not 1 January 2024.

You have to tell them and if you lie and they check, you get to go to the big house for a few years, vaseline not included.

It doesn't matter what type of wrapper the funds are held in, it's either cash savings or its not, DTA exempt or not.

Very uncool Karl, wrong answer by a mile! Thailand does not not tax on a world wide income basis, only on the remittance basis.

It's most likely to be because expats are being inundated with advertising from tax consultants, videos on YouTube, article in the press, articles on other social media platforms and questions from people they know. Finally, eventually, many of those people have come to understand that they should have been filing tax returns for many years now but haven't and have decided that it's now high time they began to understand the things they should have been doing all along. You want me to apologise for having posted so heavily in our attempt to communicate this information as far and wide as possible and and for having bored disinterested members. You also appear to want me to apologise for having caused more sensitive members distress. There is a useful ignore feature that members can deploy, nobody forces anyone to read posts about tax or even to be member of AN, if they find aspects they dislike so much. I don't mind that others debate US politics, the war in Ukraine or covid, those things don't interest me so I don't read them. But I sure as shino don't complain every week that other people are debating those topics, I can't imagine why any rational person would!

Since the early days of the tax debates in December 2023, you have not made a single positive, constructive contribution to any of the discussions, other than to state repeatedly that we/I are generating mass hysteria and to question how we are monetising our efforts. You have continued in that same vein until today with the post above where you accuse us/me of "stoking the fires". Your posts are still out there for anyone who wishes to inspect them and your posting record. It is not so much that anyone dislikes what you have to say, it's more that we've heard the same old rhetoric, ad nauseum, for months and it still doesn't add anything of value to the discussion.