Mike Lister

Jesus H....! You've never filed a tax return, never spent time with RD staff yet you've labelled them as worse than the Immi staff....are you even in Thailand? It has always been the case in my experience, and in the experience of everyone else that I have spoken to about it, that RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue! You should try visiting one of their offices, the next time you visit Thailand.

Government pension is not the same as State pension so really there should be three on the list, Government, State and Private. Since there aren't three, State pension is classed with private pensions.

Yes Jim, we understand Jim that the US provision to exclusively tax SSc/gov income is extremely helpful to Americans. Clearly, I was not making reference to excluded US income, I was referring to countries that don't have such an agreement in place, eg the UK and other countries. When a UK citizen for example (historically) imported funds from the UK, into Thailand, in the year the money was earned, technically speaking that money was always taxable in Thailand. Whether or not the taxpayer chose to report it in a tax return and pay tax on it is another matter but if they had, that would invoke the DTA. I have to believe that at least one person in the history of time has done that and that the DTA has been invoked before at least once. So the process is there, it's in place, it's just that not many have used it before.

As somebody in another thread on this subject pointed out, foreigners in Thailand have been filing returns for years using the facilities of DTA's. Every time income is brought over during the year it is earned, the DTA is invoked.

Phitsanulok Thailand!

University Hospital in Pits is very good, our niece is at Uni. there so a regular visitor

Enough, I don't exist here to respond to your every challenge and to present you with detailed explanation of everything I say, do or you ask for! Get your tax advice from your lawyers, their blogs and the internet, if that's your thing, the debates between us here are simply not productive useful or interesting for me or the wider audience any more. We be done here.

I've never had to hence I don't know, sorry. But I do recall seeing that money reclaimed under a DTA with Thailand is in the form of a credit rather than a repayment. Go ahead - block me Mike - but I would prefer to continue the 'debate'. I find that I sometimes learn things from someone that is arguing with me, as opposed to those who are in agreement. You have provided some good insights and information - very valuable. And you dont 'sound' like the type that reports you, when you respond to their insult with a similar insult (no names, no cowboys). But - as with most things in Thailand including taxes - it is up to you ???? "Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years?" I have explained this several times in different places but here it is again: My income is derived from US SSc Pensions and UK State Pensions, 50/50, all of which is paid into a Bangkok Bank account directly here in Thailand. The US SSc portion is excluded income under the widely accepted DTA. The UK portion is assessible income, against which I file a UK and Thai tax return. The Thai tax return allows me to deduct 190k right off the top, thereafter I'm allowed 60k for my Personal Care Allowance, the net of that, about 50% of the total income or + 360K, - 190k, -60k = - 110k baht is applied against the Thai tx tables, the first 150k of which is zero rated, ergo, taxable income is negative. And since you seem to want details of all my financial affairs so you can double check those against things I have said, let me oblige you: I own UK property that provides rental income which remains in the UK, I also savings in the UK and substantial savings in Thailand (because I knew a long time ago that this day would arrive). I also have an investment account in the UK which is pension related which will remain in the UK until I die and my wife will receive it as inheritance. Oh ye, I forgot, I'm considering selling my UK property, hopefully before 1 January. I'm doing that because I want to liquidate all my none Thai estate so that it is easier to settle when I pass on. There, that's a profile of my finance and taxes. Now, you didn't answer my question, why is it you find filing a tax return so difficult, per your earlier post) and how many have you filed? EDIT TO ADD: I forgot, I don't need to invoke a DTA because my assessable income transfers are negative to Thai tax. There are however years when interest income in Thailand earns enough to push into the tax payable band, in which case I just pay it or tell the RD I don't want the refund,

You've confused me. That posters income is from pension yet you seem to be talking in terms of expenses that are pension related. If the pension is already being received rather than being contributed to, surely there is no deduction. Apologies if I've not understood this correctly.

I believe very strongly that using the correct nomenclature helps everyone not become confused regarding what the speaker/author is trying to convey. The problem is, one person starts off using the wrong term which others begin to use also and when somebody tries to apply the correct term, it causes even more confusion.......like you and me, like now! As you correctly point out, visa aren't renewed they are extended yet in hundreds of conversations in this and other similar forums, for many years, lots of people thought that their visa's were being renewed. So when a conversation arose about what visa a person was on, they replied incorrectly and became yet more confused. Regarding what is a Resident. Try going to Immigration in Thailand and begin the conversation by telling the I/O that you're a Thai Resident and watch for the smile/smirk. Tell that same person you reside here or are a resident and all should be well. Tell us that you are Thailand Resident and we''l think you have been granted citizenship and will judge your words accordingly. If using the correct term/word to avoid that confusion is too difficult or irks you, consider putting my posts on ignore because as I knew from the very outset, that's where yours are going any minute now, mate! As for filing a tax return being easy in Thailand, it is, I've filed several and it's very simple, how many have you filed and why have you found it so difficult?

I predict the next step will be the RD plugging the holes and stopping the workarounds created by those people who don't follow the rules. Those things will cause everyone additional pain which is nearly always the case when changes are made to anything that affects expats.

No I wasn't. I went into systems and more or less stayed but really I enjoyed being a car mechanic much much more. The golden handcuffs kept me where I should never have been, silly really. Lesson of the day must be: do a job that you really enjoy and really want to do because you have to do it for a long time.

Ain't that the truth!

I completely agree. Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade however, it's worth noting that: Vanuatu is prone to significant year round seismic and volcanic activity, with associated risks of tsunamis. They are over 2,000 seismic events reported each year, most events are small scale, although larger tremors and quakes of over 5 on the Richter scale do occur on a regular basis. https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/vanuatu/natural-disasters#:~:text=Vanuatu is prone to significant,occur on a regular basis.

Thailand first tried to attract foreigners to live here for the same reasons other countries do the same. They wanted them to deposit foreign currency into the banking system, this helped capitalise the banks and helped increase BOT's foreign currency reserves. Over time, BOT's reserves grew such that retirees income was no longer a meaningful factor in their growth plus Thai banks grew their balance sheets such that it achieved the same end. Meanwhile, the expat retiree community grew in numbers and began to include nationalities that weren't previously included. Today, the retirement visa is probably slightly more trouble to the authorities than it's worth which is why they have no difficulty raising the thresholds and increases the financial amounts involved. That said, retiree money in Thailand is still a nice to have but I calculate it's not much more than 2 or 3% of GDP. I'm not sure how much that money powered local economies historically because most retirees used to congregate in the tourist hotspots such as Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok. It's only in the past 15 years or so that Chiang Mai has joined that list and only in the last five or ten that any significant number of farangs have moved to Issan because it's a cheaper destination.

Because of the misalignment issue, I have used pro-rata with the UK tax authorities and they are fine with this, mind you, the amounts are not huge. This means you take one quarter of income from one year and three quarters from the following year, as long as you're consistent over time it's fine. The other thing you can do is to use FILO or similar if there's only a single account, first in, last out.

So what's the rest of the story? It sounds like he got a free meal and was given the company of a young lady take away also, what a great deal that was. Where's this restaurant again?

Anyone with savings and income in a foreign country would be advised to separate it into two different accounts and to establish a baseline by 1 January 2024. That way, in a couple of years time, there is a reference point regarding what is and what isn't one or the other. Tax residency in any country is determined by passport stamps. For twelve years I did this with various countries to demonstrate where I was and wasn't tax resident, the tax people in all countries wanted to see passport stamps, especially the UK's HMRC. An overseas tax return is one way to determine income, a year end brokerage investment statement is another..

Government borrows more to pay for their financial incentives and public debt soars from the current 60% to over 80%. Borrowings have to be serviced, interest paid on the debt and the capital repaid which stresses budgets. The higher debt levels puts downward pressure on the Baht, imported oil costs them more so this results in higher borrowings, eg The Fuel Subsidy Fund debt which becomes unaffordable and is removed, costing consumers more and causing consumer debt levels to increase which in turn stresses the banks. A weaker currency results in exports earning less, that means less income for exporters and less money flowing into the Foreign Currency Reserves which begin to reduce. Budgets are reduced, services are cut, debt increases and the currency devalues itself under the strain.

You pay 0% tax on the first 150k of your income, 5% on the next 150k, 10% on the next 200k, 15% on the next 250k, etc etc etc, until you get to 30% which you pay from 2 mill to 5 mill, after which you pay 35% on the remainder.

I agree. There was even a window when resident foreigners were allowed to apply for the health care system and were issued cards.

The RD has never asked me for any documentation but the only income I have ever had that arises in Thailand is via my bank, UOB, typically investment funds and interest and they of course have supplied copies of all relevant documentation directly to the RD.

This is exactly how I envisaged the system will work, it will be a voluntary declaration that will be communicated via a Thai tax return. The contents of the return will not be challenged, unless there is evidence to suggest it should be, such as frequent or large value transfers. Even then, only questions will be asked in the first instance.

Yes, up to a max of 25k deduction per year.

A very good point.