jandtaa

Hi folks 

There's some interesting reading on permaculture I have uploaded here jandtaas docs - permaculture

This is a growing collection and I upload on a regular basis so keep an eye out. Also check out this thread we might be abl to get it moved here at some point in time.forest garden 

cheers Jandtaa

Hi folks 

I know several other members are interested in permaculture methods as I am myself and there is a wealth of info on the subject so I'm gonna pin this topic

Your posts can now be found here link

cheers J

Hi TT 

You're up bright and early and on the ball as usual !! Afraid my caffiene levels haven't reached their optimum levels yet !!

I knew I should of written it all myself instead of using the old cut and paste !!

I take it you're refering to the figures in the quoted text and are comparing it to the amount of urea used in conventional farming I believe urea is usually spread at rates of between 40 and 300 kg/ha I agree that the green manure is very low. Maybe the hairy vetch was a bad example may be other crops produce a greater bio-mass (I'll try and see if there is a green manure here in Thailand giving better results) or perhaps it is simply the case that green manures can't match chemical inputs even slightly !! It definitely bears some further research and as I said I'm gonna try and find out the nitrogen content/ bio-mass etc. of some that are available.

Thanks for pointing this out TT I'll try to read more fully anything I post and especially concerning any maths ( definitely one of my weak points ). I'm also working on a very small scale and talk of hectares and application rates boggle my brain on occasions  !! Good to know we have the likes of you to help pick up on these sort of things  !!

I think I picked up on the fact that often companies add filler to urea to add bulk to the fertiliser ( possibly from a MaizeFarmer post ) do you have any knowledge you could share on this ?? Obviously it could affect the figures. I found this site nitrogen sources which contained this "Dry pelletized urea is popular as a nitrogen fertilizer compared to other forms because of its relatively high nitrogen content (46% of the total weight is nitrogen), good storage and handling properties, and widespread availability." Any hands on experience or just knowledge you have to help seperate the "facts from myths" would be especially appreciated as I'm starting to get a little out of my "comfort zone" on the matter !!  

 cheers mate J

Hi Mike I have moved your thread here your post

and added a reply

cheers J

Hi Mike welcome to the organic forum  !!

Here's a link to making your own wood vinegar wood vinegar production 

A useful product indeed, being both a growth stimulant and an insect repellant that does not appear to harm beneficial insects !! It is also a by product of producing bio-char see this thread bio-char posts 

cheers J

Hi Folks I've moved this thread here Effective micro organisms thread

cheers J 

Hi IsaanAussie welcome to the organic forum  good to have you on board !!

Yeah Bokashi is interesting stuff I've no personal experience (It's too expensive to buy the rice bran in the UK and I just haven't got round to it out here)

The only thing I would question is spreading it on the surface, I have always understood it should be buried and plants grown on top of it. Basically you are fermenting the kitchen waste etc.. and although I've never come across it stated as to why it is effective despite extensive reading (could of just missed it !!), As a chef I am familiar with fermentation as a means of preservation i.e. sauerkraut, kimchi pickles and out here pak gaard dong, so I'm guessing the bokashi is breaking down slower and acting as a slow release fertiliser .

more in-depth recipes and info can be found here APNAN EM handbook 

cheers J

Hi Don 

Yes I have also come to the conclusion that the nitrogen increase made available from the legumes is through the incorporation of the top part of the plant into the soil. For example the soybean contains 93% nitrogen in the top of the plant and 7% in the roots and cowpeas 84 % in the tops and 16% in the roots.Another factor to bear in mind is the carbon to nitrogen ratio of the green manure crop.This is because this ratio has an effect on the soil micro-organisms ability to break down organic material of the green manure. As plants mature the fibrous (carbon ) material increases and their nitrogen content decreases. This is the reason green manure crops are recommended to be dug in shortly before or during flowering. The ideal C:N ratio is 15:1 to 25:1. Ratios above 25:1 can result in nitrogen being "tied up" by soil microbes in the breakdown of carbon-rich crop residues, thus pulling nitrogen away from crop plants. Adding some nitrogen fertilizer to aid the decomposition process may be advisable with these high carbon residues. The lower the C:N ratio, the more N will be released into the soil for immediate crop use.I will try and put together a table of Nitrogen content of green manures we might commonly find available here in Thailand and post it here when I get a chance. To find the C:N ratio of a green manure you can apply the following; Most plant materials contain close to 40% carbon. To determine the C:N ratio of any plant material, divide 40% by its nitrogen content.

Also of note "The portion of green-manure nitrogen available to a following crop is usually about 40% to 60% of the total amount contained in the legume. For example, a hairy vetch crop that accumulated 180 lbs. N per acre prior to plowing down will contribute approximately 90 lbs. N per acre to the succeeding grain or vegetable crop. Dr. Greg Hoyt, an agronomist at North Carolina State University, has estimated that 40% of plant tissue nitrogen becomes available the first year following a cover crop that is chemically killed and used as a no-till mulch. He estimates that 60% of the tissue N is released when the cover crop is incorporated as a green manure rather than left on the surface as a mulch. Lesser amounts are available for the second or third crop following a legume, but increased yields are apparent for two to three growing seasons."

In addition to nitrogen from legumes, green manures can help recycle other nutrients on the farm. Nitrogen (N), phosphorous (P), potassium (K), calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), sulfur (S), and other nutrients are accumulated by cover crops during a growing season. When the green manure is incorporated, or laid down as no-till mulch, these plant-essential nutrients become slowly available during decomposition by soil micro-organisms.The breakdown of green manures in soil also influences mineral nutrient availability in another way. During decomposition of organic matter, carbonic and other organic acids are formed as a byproduct of microbial activity. These organic acids react with insoluble mineral rocks and phosphate precipitates, releasing phosphates and exchangeable nutrients.

By their extensive and often deep rooting systems green manures can also "mine" nutrients from the subsoil whilst at the same time acting as a "biological plow" as it were improving the soil structure which can be of great importance in a "no-till" system (There's more info on this in the "soil" thread).

Added to this their ability to enhance soil and water conservation and their use as a weed supressor (some are in fact alleopathic I did post somewhere in a thread on eucalyptus and bamboo and use rye grass back in the UK for this purpose.I need to do some further research regarding this in Thailand) and it would indeed seem that green manures have a wide variety of roles on the organic farm !!

I know your original question was about the nitrogen fixing ability but I thought I would put together a general overview for the benefit of members reading this thread.

I'm led to believe that the situation is a little different concerning the use of Legume trees in an agroforestry situation using permaculture methods. I believe that when the trees are coppiced or pollarded and the prunings used as mulch there is significant die-back of the root system and nitrogen is made available in the soil from both the root nodules and obviously from the mulchings. I'm guessing that the legume trees have similar nitrogen properties to the green manures in regard to the amounts of nitrogen in both the roots and top growth and that the amount of nitrogen released is minimal. However because we are trying to imitate a natural ecosystem (although some what speeded up) every little helps as this is a long term situation.

Hope this is of some assistance Don and would be interested to here any further views yourself or others have on the subject.

Cheers J       

moved to farming section

i did do a search to find somewhere to post but the search did not turn up anything suitable

sorry!

Not a problem YD !! You are now in the ideal location !! Welcome  !

All good points in your post. As you will see there's a wide range of topics being discussed and your input is most welcome . Do I assume from the fact that you refer to moon cycles that you are using bio-dynamic farming methods maybe you could tell us more ??

cheers Jandtaa 

Hi TT

yes there's certainly a lot of conflicting evidence out there !! It became popular in the UK a while back and I have to say I was sceptical as it was fairly expensive. Out here it's certainly more affordable (I believe its sold at cost price but can't find the link at the moment). From what I have read It like many other organic methods takes a long time to take full effect, with farmers reporting mixed results in the first 5 years but then a steady increase in its efficiency. There's also the fact it is usually used in conjunction with a whole nature farming approach so it could be that it works in harmony with other inputs/methods (maybe these were lacking in some of the field trials ??) If I was cynical I would look into who was funding the field trials !

This is the first time I've used it as usually I brew up my own home-made version (bio-indigenious micro-organisms) but unfortunately my wife just binned the brew (she was making up some home-made washing up liquid and wanted the bottles and apparently the brew "smell no good"  !! ) and I don't have time to start another batch. Usually I use it to make a quick compost and as the base for a pesticide and a fish emulsion so it will be interesting to see how the commercial stuff compares. 

I'm also gonna use it in my green manure trials to see if it has any effect . At the end of the day It seems to have so many uses that maybe it isn't the best option for all purposes but I figure its worth field trialing and it won't break the bank giving it a go !!

I would be interested to here the views of others who have been using it for whatever purpose over a period of time and any observations they may have.

Cheers all J 

Hi folks

Don or Drtreelove as you may know him is a certified arborist with the International Society of Tropical Foresters and has a special interest in Integrated Pest Management .He has been kind enough to share an article published on this subject in the Chiang Mai Mail in 2003 with us, giving his professional take on the matter. You can find the PDF here Jandtaas docs-article on IPM and plant health care well worth a read !!

cheers Don 

J

Hi folks

picked up some EM and molasses ( กากนํ้าตาล ) from an ag shop in CR yesterday 1 litre of EM (r.r.p. 89 baht) 65 baht 1 kilo molasses 25 baht 

cheers J

Good to see you in the forum Jeff

the ag shop in CR just before ban cheewit mai bakery looks to have recently expanded it's range (could just be the time of year ) and was selling two sizes of rice bean (the larger one was what I call red kidney bean) two sizes of black bean (I chose the smaller of both varieties) as well as soya bean, mung bean and a couple of others I couldn't identify (it was just chance that I noticed on passing and didn't have my list with me !!). they were all selling for 20 baht a kilo and 25 for the larger sized beans. Also had a good range of mushroom spore (thats for a later time) and EM and molasses.Good idea to save seed I hope to be able to do the same ! Haven't tracked down any indigoferra seed as yet considering bringing some back from the UK .

regards Jandtaa 

Jandtaa, as you are collecting your legume seeds locally, I would suggest using kee vuar from locally grazed cattle. Should contain all the inocculants you need.

Just a word on leucaena. we've got a 500 metre hedgerow of the stuff bordering our land. Great for feeding cattle (30% because of toxins), very drought tolerant and makes a very high quality charcoal. But, be warned. It can be highly invasive. Not too bad in a field situation where it can be ploughed, but can play havoc with gardens. (mine in particular ) Very fast growing with a deeeep taproot. Anything, but cutting it to below ground level will see it magically springing up.

Regards.

Cheers for the info TT

Yeah I was aware that some of the legumes can become invasive. I was gonna plant some along the fenceline and also a few in an area where I want to start the permaculture "forest garden as mid term nitrogen fixers. In this area I will pollard them and use the prunings ( high in nitrogen ) to mulch the the fruit trees, hopefully this will help keep them under control. I've just found a supplier of legume seed up here in CR and purchased a few kilo each of rice bean and black bean and along with my collected seeds will plant up in the next couple of days. broadcast about 12 sacks of cow manure over the areas about 4 days ago and we've had a couple of nights of rain so hopefully that will do the trick with the innoculation !! I've also got some soil taken from where the parent plants of the legume seeds I collected were growing and I'll mix this in with the seed before I sow. I'm also gonna divide the area up into test squares and control areas and apply some different treatments EM etc, mono and poly-cultures and different sowing densities and observe the results .

regards J       

OK it's starting to come together I have moved a few posts to new homes  ( I have left the neccessary links ) and edited a few to help them fit into their new homes. You may have noticed the appearance of some older threads from the general farming forum are now appearing here !! I'm working with Soundman to migrate some relevant material over to this sub-forum

Cheers all J 

Hi folks

just cut and pasted this from an earlier thread

HOW ADEQUATE IS CHICKEN MANURE TEA AS A FERTILIZER? One aspect of ECHO's ministry is behind the scenes for most of our readers. We help college professors and students in the sciences identify research projects that would be of benefit to the small farmer. Several ideas that could be done at an undergraduate level are written up in what we call Academic Opportunity Sheets. Nathan Duddles, while an undergraduate at California Polytechnic University, did an outstanding job answering the above question. I should think his 100-page report is of master's thesis quality.

He placed fresh chicken manure in a burlap bag, added a rock to make sure it did not float, and set it in water in a 35 gallon garbage can. If you were making such a tea, how long would you let it set to get out most of the nutrients? Nathan measured nitrogen in the "tea" each week and found that with 20 pounds of manure the maximum was nearly reached after only 1 week. It took 3 weeks with 35 and 50 pounds. However, the concentration apparently became so high that bacteria stopped working because he got even less nitrogen with 50 pounds than with 35 pounds.

How does the tea compare to an ideal hydroponic solution? He measured several nutrients in the tea made from 20 pounds after 4 weeks. After diluting it to a fourth its original concentration he compared it to one such standard hydroponic solution. The tea concentrations followed by the standard are: total nitrogen (219; 175), nitrate (4; 145), ammonium (215; 30), phosphorous (54; 65), potassium (295; 400), calcium (6; 197), sodium (62; 0), magnesium (0; 2), iron (0; 2), manganese (0; 0.5), copper (0; 0.03), zinc (0.05; 0.05). The major nutrients and zinc are adequate. Only calcium and tiny amounts of iron, manganese and copper would need to come from another source. Unless you are growing hydroponically where all nutrients must come from the tea, these should be available from the soil or compost. He suggests that lowering the pH from 7.3 to near 6 might provide some of these, or some might come from dilute sea water.

Total nitrogen was ideal, though it would preferably be in the nitrate rather than ammonium form. However, the tomatoes grown with the tea or a hydroponic solution (somewhat different and less ideal than the one above unfortunately) grew only marginally better with the chemical preparation.

Tomatoes were grown in wood chips to see how the tea would work with our rooftop gardens and in sand or sawdust for comparison. Growth in wood chips was superior in every case, apparently because the other two were so wet that roots could not get enough air. He analyzed the concentrations of nutrients present in plant tissues and found that the only significant difference was that plants grown with manure had more sodium. The micronutrients must have come from the growing medium. We have a Technical Note on this subject for those interested in more details. 

HOW TO MAKE A FISH EMULSION FERTILIZER. We had been asked this question but I never knew the answer until Organic Gardening answered it in their February 1990 issue. It does not make me want to go to my suburban home and try it, but I could see its use on the small farm.

"Place fish scraps in a large container and add water. Cover the top securely with a cloth plus a wire screen to keep out animals and insects. Put the container in a sunny location to ferment for 8 to 12 weeks. You can add a small amount of citrus oil or other scent to mask some of the odor, but be sure to keep the container where your neighbors won't complain. Try to avoid spilling any fish scraps or fishy water on the ground, where they will attract animals. When finished, a layer of mineral-rich oil will float on the water, and fish scales will have sunk to the bottom. Skim off the oil and store in a tight-fitting container. To use, dilute 1 cup of oil with 5 gallons of water. Your homemade fish emulsion will be rich in nitrogen, phosphorous and many trace elements, but generally low in calcium."

Hi folks

Recently started collecting seed pods from local legume or NFT's as well as some of the shorter term nitrogen fixers so here's a start (excuse any bad Thai spelling and transliteration as the missus isn't here to check !! also some species have a couple of names )

SENNA SIAMEA - KHI LEK BAN - ขี้เล็กบาน

LEUCAENA LEUCOCEPHALIA - KRATHIN - กระถิน

SESBANIA - KAE BAN - แคบ้าน

GLIRICIDIA - KAE FARANG - แคฟรั่ง

here's some of the shorter term legumes ;

PIDGEON PEA - ถั่วมะแฮะ

LAB-LAB BEAN - ถั่วแปบ/ถั่วแปะยี้

COW PEA - ถั่วพุ่ม 

RICE BEAN - ถั่วแป

WHITE HOARY PEA - ครามปา

FLEMINGIA - มะฮะขี้นก

INDIGOFERA - ครามใหญ

cheers Jandtaa

Hi folks here's a link to a nice book on composting methods and materials composting and soil health

cheers J

Hi Mike

You could try posting here organic sub-forum - Insect pests 

maybe one of the members there could help you out.

cheers J

Hi Lickey

here's a link to a PDF on small-scale chicken/egg production in the tropics Jandtaas docs - chickens in the tropics 

hope it's useful 

J

OK I have moved these posts here organic livestock thread

Hi guys

OK I've made a start and tried to split out the existing posts and pin some threads hopefully it is now easier to find the info !! It's a work in progress and I intend to pin a "useful links and resources thread" plus one on "raising organic livestock" and it has been suggested a sort of "down on the farm" type pinned thread where we can keep each other abreast of developments on our individual farms/gardens and the results and any observations from our experiments etc .. How do people feel about this ?? I've recieved a good deal of PM's from people and I promise I will get back to you all as soon as I can find time!! For the moment can you please post ideas and suggestions here.

Thanks all

J   

Hi Soidog2

I'm starting to organise the subforum and have moved your post re; fruit fly to the pinned thread on pest controlyour post. I do have info on some organic controls and as soon as I've finished knocking the threads into order will post . Please bear with me  !!

cheers J

Welcome to the new organic sub-forum Soidog2 !!

Thanks for sharing the pics !! Please share any info you have on growing avocado using organic methods and keep us updated on the progress (after 10 years exciting times no doubt !!)

may your flowers all bear fruit

Jandtaa 

No, thanks due to you Bina !!

But please don't let the cat out of the bag we're into orgies I won't be able to keep up with all the posts  !! On a serious note I hope you can help give me some tips re; being a moderator and you must share some of your experiences with the new sub-forum !! Although at the moment it's mainly plants I would like it to encompass organic livestock rearing as well. Back in the UK the organic smallholding I live on when I'm there has some dairy goats , beef cattle sheep and pigs all raised organically so any input  you may have  (regarding the tropics/subtropics) would be more than welcome !!

Once again a huge thankyou for helping towards the furthering of the sub-forum, hopefully together we can all take organic farming in Thailand a step further !!