jandtaa

Cheers Soidog2

I'll bring my own Mantis in, maybe I can persuade the old man to upgrade in the UK and I can bring the old one broken down into spares !! Your reluctance to get rid of confirms what a great tool it is !!

cheers J   

Hi guys 

more good info !!

I'm planning to use a mixture of "own root" and grafts of all my fruit trees as it should extend the life of the orchard whilst giving some earlier producers and also give  some good grafting material.

cheers J 

Hi Loong 

Yeah I believe you are !! It's very similar to brewing beer and many factors come into it .Unfortunately it's against forum rules to discuss those but I have had good results with the following :

temperature has a big influence: so for a good start I dissolve my sugar/molasses in hot water and add to it the neccessary amount of cold water to bring it to blood temperature (ie. stick your hand in and you should experience neither cold nor warm ).

Add the rest of your "ingredients" to the brew and aerate (stirring is just as good)

depending on the quantity of micro- organisms in your compost you should see a result in a couple of days although it could take a week to see a healthy foam on the surface ( this is the natural yeasts at work) 

As in brewing you sometimes need to adjust the quantities  of the ingredients to get the brew going . At the same time you need to decide whether your'e trying  to brew a nice drop of mild or a barrel of wife beater !!

Hope this helps J

Hi Jeff I agree 

This is the best I have found as yet, maybe they will update the document when the site is fully running (3-4 weeks ago no links worked so they are working on it). On the plus side they claim to be IFOAM accredited so it might be worth checking with them whether they recognise ACT. I think there is no doubt that there is no way to "police"  their policies and because TIT one is inclined to be cynical that it is just a money making scheme . However it might be the start of an official policy, because of the amount of produce Thailand exports maybe it is catching on to the growing demand for organic produce (although in the present economic climate sadly this is declining ).At the end of the day it is up to the importer to verify that the imports meet their countries organic standards . So if you are selling within Thailand to a local market probably the fact that people know you and understand you "mai sai chemi " is enough. In the UK because I produce on a small scale and it's not economically viable to gain certification I sell as "organic non-certified" and can still command premium prices because my buyers know me and my methods . 

here's a link to a Thai farm that appears to be signed up so maybe you could contact them for more info Thai organic farm

cheers J

Cheers guys 

Yeah these are all worth considering ! It's really a case of balancing up the cost against what the machine is capable of and what I need now and what I might want in the future. I really think as far as value for money goes the Mantis would be hard to beat, I know the machine, it has multiple attatchments and great in tight spaces. For the future I could upgrade the Iron buffalo we have (an ancient beast but a good workhorse) , The 12 rai of paddy we have is likely to increase as family members become to old to work their land ( my wife is the youngest of 7 her eldest brother being 65 ) and I would seriously consider converting some of it to grow fruit or vegetable crops on a larger scale, or if I win the lottery I could buy a small tractor ( I really do have a tight budget at the moment) So another couple of questions how do these mid size walk behinds compare to the Iron buffalo can they work as a pump either with a longtail or other means ? Can they be fitted with paddy paddles ?

Soidog2 if the mantis is in a garage out here and you run out of tight spaces I would be really interested .

Cheers all Jandtaa       

Hi folks

Turned up at the plot this morning and Don was there waiting for me !!

Turns out his name is actually Ton and he lives in the nearest shack to my plot. He is actually related to the wife, second cousin's son I think.

We worked over another area and sowed up some more green manure but it's been a bit of a scorcher today and neither of us was as keen as yesterday !! I'd had a couple of beers too many last night and had a bit of a hangover !! So we knocked that on the head and Ton helped me lime the pond. We then set to planting up a jackfruit . The ground was like concrete and full of stones and it must of taken us an hour to dig the hole !!

Unlike yesterday, today Ton was up for a bowl of noodles, the poor little lad was starving and had second helpings. Turns out they are one of the poorest families in the village .

Then I got Ton to fetch and carry water up from the pond and we filled the hole and allowed it to soak in and then filled it with a mix of well matured manure, soil and composted coconut husks . A load more water, a cardboard mulch mat some rice straw and some more compost finished it off and then we banged in a stake. The missus had come out to join us so she was able to translate the reasons for what we were doing and take some photos. Ton asked me if he would be able to eat some of the fruit and I promised him the first one which resulted in a huge hug, he really is a great little kid !

Got too hot to carry on so we called it a day although I'll go back this evening. Ton asked if he can come to play again tomorrow and I explained it was work. No he insisted it was too much fun to be work !!  

 I've uploaded some photos here Jandtaas photos

That's all folks J

Hi Jeff 

the new link above should help you in regard to organic standards. I won't include the other link as it is neither organic nor tropic specific although there is some very good info there. It will obviously remain clickable in your post and I suggest you add it to the general farming forum. 

cheers for now J

Just found this fertiliser cost formulas

Not as much fun as Teletigers manure calculator but a whole bunch of formulas clearly explained

J

Hi Lickey

Yeah I compost the banana residues from out the back of our house with rice husks and cow manure. I know that banana peels have high levels of pottasium (Mum places them under her rose bushes ) and I assume it's the same for the spent culms. I found this extract a while back which confirmed I was on the right lines.

"In anticipation of the Philippines being a major producer of organic bananas, this study was conducted to provide a quantitative basis for certain practices in organic farming. The nutrient supplying capacity of banana residues in combination with leguminous materials and chicken manure was investigated in composting studies. Changes in the chemical composition of ten formulations of banana residue-based compost involving leguminous plants (Sesbania rostrata, Flemingia macrophylla, Arachis hypogea) and chicken manure were analyzed periodically during a composting period of 16 weeks. Results showed that combinations of banana residues (BnR) and chicken manure or leguminous plants were highly decomposed compared to untreated BnR. The use of leguminous plants and/or chicken manure enhanced the composting process significantly compared to the effect of Bioquick. The compost piles were characterized by increases in pH, total N and total P, and decreases in total K, total carbon and C/N ratio with time. Notably, BnR+chicken manure attained a C/N ratio of 15 at 4 weeks, while the BnR+leguminous materials reached such a low C/N ratio at 8–16 weeks. An incubation study was conducted under greenhouse conditions for 24 weeks. It was designed to follow the dynamics of nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P) and potassium (K) availability in two clay soils (Antipolo and Lipa) amended with five compost formulations (BnR alone, BnR+Sesbania prunings, BnR+Flemingia prunings, BnR+peanut stover and BnR+chicken manure) and with uncomposted banana residue at an application rate of 20 Mg ha−1. Results showed that net N mineralization occurred in soils amended with BnR+chicken manure and BnR+leguminous materials, which had C/N ratios ranging from 12 to 16. Net N immobilization during the earlier period of incubation was observed in uncomposted and composted banana residues with a C/N ratio of 68 and 24, respectively. Significantly higher net P mineralization was obtained only in soils amended with BnR+chicken manure. An abrupt increase in exchangeable K was observed in all treatments 2 weeks after the incorporation of organic residues. Higher available K in pure BnR treatments (uncomposted or composted) exhibits the inherently high K content of banana residues."

So it might be worth composting them and then using the compost to mulch around the base of plants that have a need for potassium.Fertilisers for flowering plants are usually high in potassium. Likewise it is important for trees which produce fruits and species of fruiting vegetables such as capsicums, cucumbers and tomatoes. 

here's a  link about potassiums role in plant growth link 

I think it was you I was telling that I was gonna purchase a soil testing kit with the view to producing compost recipes for specific plants and this banana one is definitley something I will be working on in the future.

Cheers for now J

Cheers TT

I know somewhere I have something with NPK contents of all sorts of manures and ammendments (blood,horn and hoof etc) can't remember if it's in a veg growing book or a PDF on my UK computer but when I get back (5 days time) I'll hunt it out and try to put together a table including green manures etc apply your sums to give urea content and any any info on trace elements I can find and place it in the pinned Resources thread so that it's always to hand.

 This illustrates the importance of moisture content :

  Materials N P2O5 K2O Availability

Poultry (75% water) 1.5 1.0 0.5 Medium-Rapid

Poultry (50% water) 2.0 2.0 1.0 Medium-Rapid

Poultry (30% water) 3.0 2.5 1.5 Medium-Rapid

Poultry (15% water) 6.0 4.0 3.0 Medium-Rapid

And if and what bedding material is contained in the manureshould be taken in to account 

I agree with you about DM . Every @#$%@* site uses different figures, it's the same trying to extract meaningful data from field trials on green manures etc !! What is needed is an industry standard to base all figures on, said standard to be decided upon by members of TV organic forum  !!

Yeah it's always worth bearing in mind the nitrogen requirements of the crop . In the UK veg plot we use a crop rotation plan following heavy feeders with lighter feeders but thats a whole new thread!!

Cheers for now J   

^Cheers Rice555

Yeah thats more the job . I like to create raised beds to a depth of about 18 inches using  timber or blocks to shore up the sides and although in the UK they're 1.4 metres wide, out here I'll make them narrower to accomodate the wifes shorter arms so manouevering the tiller up and around is gonna be of importance. I'm gonna end up with 28 six metre long beds and although I dont mind a bit of graft and always hand weed, I've found a rototiller a great help in incorporating green manures and animal manures.

cheers for your help J   

This post is from  TeleTiger

Not sure where to put this. Jandtaa is still sorting out his smalls , one more for you son.

Couple of days ago Jandtaa asked me about converting nitrogen lbs into urea. Simple. Divide by 2.2 (urea is always in kilos)

90/2.2=41kilos. Expressed in bags of urea (50 kilo bags....23 kilos actual urea... Erm...er (I was good at fractions)...er C. 1.8 bags urea per 90 lbs nitrogen. 

Now.... a better question is how to equate manure in NPK terms (bags).

The biggest problem with manure is the DM (dry matter) content....Or lack of it. Websites quote "well composted", "fresh", "Dried", 'and none of them post a DM number, which makes their following NPK values as "diddly squat". 

This is from http://www.allotment.org.uk/fertilizer/index.php

NPK Values of Animal Manures       Cow Manure            Pig Manure            Chicken Manure

N Nitrogen %                                0.6                         0.8                          1.1                        

P Phosphorus %                             0.4                         0.7                          0.8 

K Potassium                                  0.5                         0.5                          0.5

Anyway....this all means nothing without a DM number. This table was described as fresh. So we'll use our imaginations and create a ball-park figure. NPK is the control at 100% DM. Therefore all following figures are 100% DM...No water.

Kee vuar (Cows) =  30KG N : 20KG P : 25KG K...per ton

Kee moo (pigs) = 40KG N : 35KG P : 30KG K...per ton

Kee Ghai (chicken-Layer) = 59KG N : 40KG P : 25KG K...per ton 

I'm going to add a +/- 5/10% caveat in there. Just got back from a local "pig head" party. Khao Lak(?) was the only thing on offer. I duly imbibed.(rude not to, right?) Bottle it?? They should put it in phialls and export it to the NHS as anastheatic

When buying Kee "whatever" take into account the water content. Dry kee....crumbles in your hand, leaves no mark, will at best be 90% DM. 70/90 DM will try to form a ball, but will crumble. 50/70%DM will just about form a ball, 30/50 %DM a Kee-ball fight will break out......anything less than that, take wellies and waterproofs. Prices should decline accordingly.

A little something extra. Being a lazy b@stard my philosophy is to dig in 2 bags of kee and let things take care of themselves.

Something I've not seen before

Nitrogen Requirements of Various Crops

Very High Nitrogen Requirement

•Brussels Sprouts

•Cabbages

•Rhubarb

High Nitrogen

•Beetroot

•Celery

•Leeks

•Spinach

Medium Nitrogen

•Broccoli

•Calabrese

•Cauliflower

•Lettuce

Low Nitrogen

•Asparagus

•Runner Beans

•Parsnip

•Swede

•Onion

Very Low Nitrogen

•Carrots

•Radish

No Nitrogen

•Peas

•Broad Beans

Remember that legumes produce their own nitrogen due to a symbiotic relationship with bacteria that fix nitrogen from the air for the plant, which is why peas and broad beans need no nitrogen and runner beans with all their foliage need just low levels to supplement their own produced nitrogen.

Regards

Hi rice 555 

And I thought it was only us Brits that had mastered sarcasm  !!

Glad you enjoyed yourself at  the ag show. Sure it's not the same as the Iron buffalo we have for the paddy but it serves the purpose on salad/veg beds etc which I assume most farmers in the world have in their home plots if they actually feed themselves rather than exporting everything and spend the profit on buying in their food. The Iron buffalo would be a bit of an overkill !! I guess it all depends on what you call a farm we can't all be owners of vast estates and to quote wikipedia 

"A farm is an area of land, including various structures, devoted primarily to the practice of producing and managing food (produce, grains, or livestock), fibers and, increasingly, fuel. It is the basic production facility in food production.[1] Farms may be owned and operated by a single individual, family, community, corporation or a company. A farm can be a holding of any size from a fraction of a hectare to several thousand hectares."

So whilst the brain is searching for someting witty, the mouth is saying.... I guess you know the rest  !!

Maize Farmer thanks for the info as always useful . cheers !!

I guess it's just a matter of horses for courses and don't think it hurts to think out of the box on occasions !!

cheers for now Jandtaa 

Hi 

I had similar problems this year with some pumkins. seemed to be a lot of ants in the flowers possibly keeping off the pollinating insects. obviously depends on how many plants you have and how much time you have but I had success with mine by breaking off the male flowers tearing off the petals and placing the stamen into the female flowers ( let the ants do the job they're preventing others from doing ). Used a paint brush on a smaller scale with some "difficult" greenhouse plants before in the UK just couldn't be bothered with the faff out here and devised the afore mentioned strategy, it's worked well !!

cheers J   

Hi Folks

After working over some land today with a rake ( some b'stard has half inched my hoe ) I found myself really missing the old Mantis that I use on my salad beds in the UK . I know that there have been several threads on this forum already about the subject but I'm coming from a slightly different angle. This is a very lightweight machine but very efficient and although I could bring one back with me from the UK I was wondering the following :

Would it be cheaper to have one made up out here ? Obviously the frame wouldn't be a problem but is there a compatible engine ?? I'm guessing this is the most expensive component and obviously the heaviest. I could always bring some of the other parts tines etc as "used spares" in my suitcase. In the UK we use the two stroke model which my dad won in an organic gardening mag 12 years ago. It gets a winter service every year and the first problem was last year with the starter cord. I think a fourstroke might be better suited to my needs out here.

I have some background as a draughtsman so could knock up some drawings whilst back in the UK . Any thoughts from any of the engineers amongst you would be most welcome  !!

here's a link to the company's website Mantis UK   

cheers for your help Jandtaa   

Hi Folks 

I've started this thread and hope it will work in a similar way to the one in the general farming forum . If you have a useful link etc post it here and I will move them up and place them in categories. Cheers for your help ! Jandtaa

SUGGESTED READING:

Organic fruit and vegetables from the tropics - A UN publication in PDF format 

Fruits from a warm climate - Julia Morton (not organic but good cultivation info on most tropical fruits)

GENERAL LINKS:

The Sovereignty Library - An Australian on-line library with a good organic agricultural section many downloadable as PDF's

ATTRA - National sustainable agriculture information service

Jandtaa's farming docs - My personal on-line library of PDF's

ECHO - some good info at this site which is also a seed bank

PEST CONTROL:

OISAT - Non chemical pest control in the tropics

GREEN MANURES:

College of tropical agriculture - Hawaii

AGROFORESTRY:

U.H.D.P. - Upland Holistic Development Project 

NAFRI Lao Tree Seed Project

ORGANIC CERTIFICATION: 

A.C.T. - Organic Certification Thailand - This site is currently under construction and not all of the links work.If you mouse over the ACT standards button and then click the general farm management button you can access an E-doc setting out the organic standards for Thailand  

What we worry about is the snakes, ive seen 6 on the farm in 2.5 years, and a cobra yesterday on the road outside the farm, im thinking that a lush green swale bank will attract snakes? any thoughts on this please?

Thanks, Lickey,,

Hi Lickey 

Saw my first snake out on my plot this morning ! only about a foot long and disappeared fairly fast . Managed to identify it from this site as a harmless bronzeback. It's a useful site as it also has the name in Thai script and good photos. snakes of Thailand poisonous and non poisonous

Cheers mate J

Hi Folks 

Just spent the morning getting in some more green manures. I'm concentrating on the area that will eventually become raised beds ( approx 500 square metres). After a couple of fairly heavy storms there's a bit of moisture in the soil (this is the topsoil I had delivered) and it appears to be fairly free draining already. Indeed in some areas its as good as the soil in some of my veg beds back in the UK !! Just been breaking up the inevitable crust and seeing as someone has walked off with my hoe had to resort to using the rake, which is doing the job apart from in a couple of areas where there are some clay deposits.

Luckily I've had a little helper with me, a young lad of 7 or 8 was out in the paddy with his hoe looking for land crabs with his scruffy little dog . After some initial shyness he hopped over the fence to come and see what I was doing . It didn't take much encouragement to get him digging and he worked away in silence for about 5 minutes before giving me a huge grin and bursting into song ! He had a great little voice and it was good to have a bit of company. I practised my basic Thai and discovered his name was Don. I didn't figure it would last long and that he viewed it as a bit of a game but 2 hours later he was still digging away happy as larry !! We took a break and I shared my water bottle with my new found mate as he told me the Thai names for the numerous birds that have taken to sitting on the fence posts around the plot and were foraging for insects in the freshly turned soil and then it was back to the job in hand.

I decided it wuold be good to get Don sowing some seeds (I always enjoyed it as a kid when dad gave me responsibilities like this) and although he was hesitant at first, he soon got the hang of it and was merrily broadcasting away. Lunch beckoned and I asked Don if he was hungry and wanted to eat some noodles at the local shop ? No he replied but soon changed his mind when I offered to buy him some "kanom" as payment for his hard work ! So off to my nieces shop and after thirstily guzzling a bottle of orange juice and clasping a bag of crisps Don thanked me profusely and skipped merrily off to tell his mates about  his mornings exploits with the "farang".

Looks like I might have my first apprentice as a lad of this age showing such application to what is probably the most boring job of all ( we turned over about 150 square meters and Don must have done at least 25% of it ) is sure to be fascinated when we get into the growing and harvesting bit (I know I was ).Hopefully I will meet Don again someday on the plot and hopefully he brings some mates and they unlike many kids in the UK will have the opportunity to learn that potatoes don't grow on trees   !! What a great morning !!

Cheers J     

Cheers Soidog2

thats everything covered nicely !! look forward to eating home grown guacamole in about 10 years time  !!

J

^Thanks Don that saves me some time I'll concentrate on the bamboo !

J

Now we got a Brit quoting native American legends and a good ol American boy signing off with Cheers. What's happnin here? And we thought

the US was the melting pot.

 Yeah TV organic forum the "new" melting pot !!

Grew up like many Brits in a gentler time when cowboys and indians was a common play time occupation, watch a few westerns on the box and then off to the woods to re-enact !! ( I was always an Indian chief and had a mighty fine set of feathers !!)

Always had a fascination with native tribes and how they lived sustainably from the land and I think a lot can be learnt from their methods. I like the fact that Indian hunters would only kill the weaker animals for food there by helping natural selection along its way and increasing the quality of the gene pool etc.They Like the Aborigines and others lived in total harmony with nature and never took more than they needed.

In actual fact my mother is a dual citizen and my grandfather and his forefathers hail from Virginia so I've a bit of hillbilly in me !! Probably explains why I'm so at home up here in the back of beyond mountains of Chiang Rai !!

Any way old chap I've just hung up my bowler hat and am looking forward to a round of cucumber sandwiches and a nice pot of darjeeling so toodle-pip for now and remember stiff upper lip what !!

cheers J 

Hi FF

yeah my old man uses rye grass in the UK on beds that have an invasive weed problem. Rye grass has alleopathic properties link to wikipedia as does indeed does rice. By the use of three plantings of rye and buckwheat (I think) he has had good success in removing the weeds. I agree it would be good to find a source out here. I'm also looking into using bamboo and eucalyptus leaves as a mulch/herbicide but need more info on whether they will also harm soil micro-organisms. Got in some green manure yesterday and there was more rain last night so hopefully I can finish the job today !!  

cheers for now 

J

Hi Lickey 

Yeah Its the same with my parents allways plenty of tagetes and nasturtium (the flowers and leaves of the nasturtium are also edible ,nice peppery taste, and I usually add a few to my salad mixes that I sell !!) growing in the veg patch, my dad tells me he was taught this by his father and uncles (allotment growers in London) so companion planting is another technique that gardeners have been aware of for ages but with the recent resurgence in organics has become a bit of a buzz-word.

Also known as "guilds" in the permaculture world these methods go back to the time of the native American Indians with their "three sisters" guild of corn, squash and beans  ;

 " The Legend of the Three Sisters

  The term “Three Sisters” emerged from the Iroquois creation myth. It was said that the  earth began when “Sky Woman” who lived in the upper world peered through a hole in the  sky and fell through to an endless sea. The  animals saw her coming, so they took the soil  from the bottom of the sea andspread it onto  the back of a giant turtle to provide a safe place  for her to land. This “Turtle Island” is now what we call North America.  Sky woman had become pregnant before she  fell. When she landed, she gave birth to a  daughter. When the daughter grew into a  young woman, she also became pregnant (by  the West wind). She died while giving birth to twin boys. Sky Woman buried her daughter in the “new earth.” From her grave grew three

special gifts from Great Spirit : Corn, beans and squash".

I've used this in the UK with sweetcorn, French beans and butternut squash in the poly tunnel to good effect. The Idea behind the thinking is that the corn acts as a support for the beans which fix and supply extra nitrogen whilst the squash act as a living mulch, shading the roots of the corn. It's an excellent way of getting a maximum crop yield from the ground (known in permaculture as "stacking"). I tried it last year out here in my kitchen garden using corn, yardlong bean and pumkin and although I need to work on the planting times of the three crops it is certainly a method I'm going to persist with !!

Here's a link to a PDF I uploaded a few months back companion planting  it's a nice overview and covers the "three sisters" in depth, giving plant spacings and timings.

Cheers for now J 

Hi Bina

Yeah the copy and paste is a good Idea I was looking to see if there was a copy post option so this would be the answer.With borderline threads etc. When I'm reading through the general farming forum (loads of great info there !!) I sometimes just mention the organic sub-forum and leave a general link mentioning that the subject is being discussed over here and suggest they drop by if their interested.

Cheers for now J   

Cheers Soidog2

Sorry I didn't credit you with the fertiliser, just been so many posts to wade through in the last week I couldn't remember who turned me onto it !!

OK I think I've got the pollination sorted but is there a recommended variety to use as root stock ( I have some experience of fruit trees in the UK where generally the root stock determines the size of the tree) is it similar with avocados or is there a variety that simply produces greater yields or is more resistant to Phytophthora cinnamomi - avocado root-rot  that is preferred? Indeed is this disease a problem in Thailand that you're aware of ??

cheers for any further assistance you may be able to offer J

nearly forgot grafting any particular method give outstanding results?