Canada

Wifey says I must have imagined the conversation where she said that they don't eat rabbit. She has eaten rabbit and would still if there were any left. Around here all that is left for hunters is rat, and not much of that either. My mistake. But you still never see it for sale or people rearing them for eating.

Hmmmm. Maybe that's the next project for our farm.

Best is stewed, or slow cooked whole. Similar to chicken yes. Very delicious.

I've seen sugarcane do just fine on a field that just had euca trees removed. But you already grow sugarcane so you know the end result of that.

Not really..I am far away in the US and asided from the Euca, I pay little attention to the rest. This is actually more for my Thai family and whatever I make goes to them anyway. I think once I retire there I'll look into this more. I'm curious about the meaning of your post. What is the end result of sugan cane growing?

Marc

Hi.

In one of your posts you say that you also grow sugar cane and cassava. You also say "Neither have produced windfall profits..." That's what I am referring to.

If you got 12,000 per rai profit off of cassava, that's pretty good. Anyways, it's more than you'll get off of cane. Why wouldn't you stick with cassava, but on a larger scale? 85 rai at your stated profit is a million baht a year. If you've already produce 25 rai, you should be able to produce 85...add 85 to your 25 gives you 110 @12,000 per is 1.3 million per year.

Does cassava do that well? It's at least twice what you'll earn off of cane if you're not selling it directly to the mill. How are you selling your cassava? You harvest it and truck it yourself to a buy depot? Or to the factory? I know nothing about cassava.

Here's all I know. My brother in law joins with others in our area during harvest to increase the total tonnage. ..like a group effort of some sort. I guess they each haul their own crops and get paid separately and the distribution yard is less than 5 km from home but by having many deliver during the same period they wait less to dump each load. My BIL borrowed a truck from his uncle otherwise our tac-tac would have to make many many trips. During planting, if they join up with the same group, the distribution yard has a machine they can borrow that automates the planting once the rows are plowed and furrowed. I guess you have to have a certain number of rai to get to use the machine.

That's all I know. Except that on one 22 rai piece we only made 180,000 baht net. By the time I paid for my wife to travel there to deposit the money, then paid for her month there, we only saved about 4,000 baht. So the way I look at it, I paid my BIL which helped his family, my wife got a free month in Thailand, and all this didn't cost me anything. Kind of a break even year...better than a loss for sure.

Marc

OK. That's not the same figures as what you posted earlier.

I've read the entire thread on cassava now so I now know a little more than I did.

I've seen them in Wararot market before.

To be honest, I don't think Thais eat rabbit. I've had this conversation with my wife before. Weird though, cause they eat anything else!

Try a pet store. Really. Often see them in markets, but as pets, not food.

Seems this thread has gone stagnant for quite a while now. I am curious about the mealy bug. I'v just finished reading most of the thread, but am unclear on whether or not the bug is gone or manageable now. I read the part about applying chemicals when planting and also the predator wasps...

What are prices like these days? Thanks.

I've seen sugarcane do just fine on a field that just had euca trees removed. But you already grow sugarcane so you know the end result of that.

Not really..I am far away in the US and asided from the Euca, I pay little attention to the rest. This is actually more for my Thai family and whatever I make goes to them anyway. I think once I retire there I'll look into this more. I'm curious about the meaning of your post. What is the end result of sugan cane growing?

Marc

Hi.

In one of your posts you say that you also grow sugar cane and cassava. You also say "Neither have produced windfall profits..." That's what I am referring to.

If you got 12,000 per rai profit off of cassava, that's pretty good. Anyways, it's more than you'll get off of cane. Why wouldn't you stick with cassava, but on a larger scale? 85 rai at your stated profit is a million baht a year. If you've already produce 25 rai, you should be able to produce 85...add 85 to your 25 gives you 110 @12,000 per is 1.3 million per year.

Does cassava do that well? It's at least twice what you'll earn off of cane if you're not selling it directly to the mill. How are you selling your cassava? You harvest it and truck it yourself to a buy depot? Or to the factory? I know nothing about cassava.

Banks will loan on proven ability to pay, not LTV. So if the wife can prove ability to pay a second mortgage as well as the first, then yes she could attach a second to it. Just having a low LTV will not get a loan.

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

But the land and house were bought with money (gift) given to her by the OP's friend so in theory there is inheritance tax to pay.

1. How would the British gov get the money from a Thai living in Thailand ?

2. Is this a way to avoid inheritance tax ? I.e. send all your money from the UK to your Thai wife in Thailand when your time is coming.

When a partner of a farang buys a property here, the farang signs a document stating that he did not buy the property and that the property is not "marital property".

I like to read about others" experiences over here. Thanks for sharing. I think that when you know some of the history of an individual, it gives a different perspective of him than if you knew nothing of him but what he just posted.

As far as "rude" behaviour....hmmm. In this world we seem to get what we give. There are exceptions but generally, If I experience someone as being rude, I need to look at my own actions first. The problem often lies there, but not always. Some people just have a problem that they like to pass around.

Anyways, thanks for sharing your story. I think it takes guts and a certain perspective on the world and "life" to move out to the middle of nowhere and start farming in some strange foreign country on the other side of the planet from "home".

I almost suffered "great injury" at the helm of my own iron buffalo as well. Trying to get it out of the cane field loaded with about a ton of cane on slippery cane leaves. MIL and SIL were watching and I was not going to unload it, drive it out and then reload it...not in front of them. A great battle ensued...left and right.... the wheels turning without mercy, left clutch, right clutch, the thing damn near threw me off to the side but I hung on. I got it out finally, but I was beat. They brought me the water bucket to drink when I sat down to rest with small smiles.....

I bought the thing in town. The owner of the store was quite alarmed when I told her I would drive it home. They all gathered to watch me get a lesson from one of the guys and then watched my drive off. A foreigner driving an edek...they'd never seen that. My first intersection I suddenly realised that I forgot to ask where the brake was... I role through the intersection and the approaching car stopped for me. It took me a few minutes to figure it out, but I finally found the brake.

I love the adventure parts of this experience. You don't get adventure unless you step out of your comfort zone.

Get a bow, or a pellet gun. After a few deaths, they run when they see you come out with the bow. Chickens are stupid, but not entirely.

Right ... I'm off to draw a brew, pack a lunch and read the OP.

War and Peace has nothing on this!

Great effort ...

HI. Yes, sorry for the long post. It's not something that you can put into a small paragraph. The numbers of it could, but there would be no context or reasoning behind them. I've also written part of my story into it to highlite some of the mistakes I made which give reason for some of things that I suggest...like "plan your farm well."

I wish there was a post like this when I first started out....or when I was considering starting out.

Good job Canada. I hope others build on your base. I found it a very interesting read.

I know that there are a couple of members that farm cane on a larger scale that myself and also there is at least one member who operates as a cane wholesaler (middleman). I am hoping that they add their knowledge that I haven't touched on, correct mistakes or make suggestions....

I've seen sugarcane do just fine on a field that just had euca trees removed. But you already grow sugarcane so you know the end result of that.

I think they actually have to do the killing before they become attached to it. I've got a dog that watched lots of killing, but didn't become a killer.

The dogs that have killed...it seems like they always will. I don't think you can change it once it happens.

Right ... I'm off to draw a brew, pack a lunch and read the OP.

War and Peace has nothing on this!

Great effort ...

HI. Yes, sorry for the long post. It's not something that you can put into a small paragraph. The numbers of it could, but there would be no context or reasoning behind them. I've also written part of my story into it to highlite some of the mistakes I made which give reason for some of things that I suggest...like "plan your farm well."

I wish there was a post like this when I first started out....or when I was considering starting out.

I’ve decided to try to give TV Farming Forum members an in depth view of what growing sugarcane looks like here in Thailand. I do not claim to be an expert on this or any other farming related subject. Recently someone posted that there is relatively little shared on this forum with regard to broad acre farming. Sugarcane is a broad acre crop, and any information that I have found has been searched from the farmers here locally or in bits and pieces on this forum or just learned from my own (arrogance based) mistakes.

This is a rather long opening post on the subject. Sorry. I get "wordy" sometimes. The purpose of this is purely to provide information. No claim to fame, riches, or genius. Enjoy.

I “fell” into farming as opposed to having come from a farming background. It was a series of (in retrospect) poor choices rather than one big decision to become a farmer. I originally bought 30 rai to farm cane and our plan was to have her parents manage it while we lived in Chiang Mai. The following year we bought another 50 rai. Our first planting on the 50 rai failed. Period. It was the very wet year about 3 years ago. We had problems getting a tractor to work for us when we needed it and then the rains came too much too fast. It was just a total disaster. Our 30 rai piece was planted by hand and we had better luck with it, but it was still not up to our expectations. We replanted the 50 rai the following year and it worked out quite a bit better. We changed our planting time from “before the rains” to after the rains”. Lesson one. Plant at the right time. Our 50 rai piece did well and our 30 rai piece did okay, but again, not up to expectations.

My observations were; that we were hostage to the tractor contractors, her parents were farmers not managers and could not delegate work well, had no record keeping skills whatsoever, did things that we didn’t tell them to do and didn’t do things that we told them to do. In conclusion, it wasn’t going well and we either needed to sell it and move on, or move to the farm and manage it ourselves. Not knowing what else to do for income in Thailand I chose to move to the farm. We bought anther 20 rai for cane, and a 6 rai piece to build a house and run an experimental cane farm. I bought a tractor. I had never even been on a tractor but am naturally inclined to be able to drive things. My first year on the tractor I cleared 20 rai, ploughed and planted it and then ploughed and replanted the 30 rai which had never met my expectations. Now I live in that house that we built , in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of cane and do most of my own work and have all the gear I need to do it all.

I am originally a glassblower by trade.

I’ll get to the specifics of growing cane soon. I just want to give an idea of how I have come to know how to grow cane and what it has cost me to get that knowledge. Starting out, I have more dollars that sense and I have since traded lots of one for some of the other.

So now we’re at 100 rai of planted cane, a new house, tractor, equipment for the tractor; 3 disc, 7 disc, sub-soil fertilizer, sugarcane planter machine, large hauling trailer. Also have had to buy a two wheel “iron buffalo”, several surface water pumps, another kubota motor to run pumps, a 2 hp submersible, 2 - 5 kw generators, a herbicide spraying set up (pump, 1000 litre tank, 200 meters of hose, sprayer heads, and a back pack sprayer as well). I am in waaaay over my head but everytime I need something that I didn’t think of, it’s like... “I am in too far to turn back, so just get what we need.”

I’ve gotten good at tractor driving and working and do hire myself out now from time to time. I tried to teach my BIL to do it, but I think he has driving and learning disabilities. I do all the tractor work, from ploughing, planting to delivering cane to the scale/depot. I get some strange looks but what do I care?

Growing Cane

Disclaimer: I’ve learned to grow it, but there are lots of things I haven’t learned yet. This is just a summary of what I have learned.

You can grow cane in many different soil types. It’ll grow in sandy soil, it’ll grow in red clay, it’ll grow in black dirt. Best is black dirt. This would be the starting point for growing cane. Buy or rent land with good dirt. Your cane will come up better in the first year and subsequent years. You also may get more years off of your planting. Typical cycle is 3-4 years harvest off of one planting. First year is your new crop, following years are what they call ratoon crops.

Cane likes ph in the mid range (6.5) , but to be honest I have not tested nor adjusted ph myself on a large scale like this. I’m a bit lost with it. Ph level will have an impact on your plants ability to uptake nutrients. In areas that our cane is not doing particularly well, I suspect the ph is wrong. Anyways...

In the first year you will incur the largest costs.

You can plant 6-8 rai of cane off of 1 rai of “seed” cane. Seed cane will cost you about 16,000 baht per rai. The 6-8 rai will depend on how you plant. If you are planting with a machine, and your helpers feed the cane fast, you’ll use more per rai, but your first year cane will come up “thicker” - more shoots. IME this is a better way to go compared than trying to save on costs. Your saving on costs will have direct impact on income for some things, other things it’s okay to save on, you just need to know which ones. Once you buy the cane you’ll have to cut it and transport it to your plot of land. Cutting, loading and unloading will cost you about 4000 baht per rai so your cane is now worth 20,000 per rai which will plant 6 rai. But the cane is cut and at your plot. When you choose your cane for planting, you need to select a strain that has proven itself to grow well, is resistant to pests, disease, is resistant to drought, and puts out lots of new shoots in the following ratoon crops. Local cane farmers in your area will have their preferences and will usually be happy to recommend or explain the differences. We use 2 varieties right now. LK11 and Khon Kaen3. The Khon Kaen is a heavier cane, but puts out less shoots. The LK is a lighter cane, but is resistant to drought (renowned) and puts out lots of shoots. Both of these strains are popular in our area. We also grow another strain called “92” on our experiment farm because I’ve seen some really big and heavy 92 cane stalks and I want to see how it does over a longer term. They say it doesn’t do well in the ratoon crops but nobody around here irrigates. All cane loves water. The more the better. So far our 92 in its second year is doing great but it is grown under drip irrigation. It does put out significantly less shoots than the LK11. But it’s heavy...cutters don’t like it.

If you calculate the last paragraph, cane for planting will cost you about 3000 per rai. Roughly.
Hiring a tractor to plough and plant will cost you about 2000 per rai in our area. That means he plows 3 disc once, 7 disc once, and then plants with a machine.

Fertilizer for planting will run about 900 per rai (1 bag per rai) which is standard application for a planting machine.

We’re at 5900 now. If you plant at the wrong time you will need to water after planting. In the times that we have planted in the wrong time, it has cost about 1000 per rai to water enough to get the cane up and doing well. That means 2-3 waterings. And that will depend on how deep you’ve planted your cane. The 1000 per rai covers fuel for kubota, one man per machine, and food for him. This is traditional flood type irrigation and you can calculate about 1 rai per day per person/machine, oil changes, misc costs etc...

You’ll need weed control. Figure about 1000 per rai. It should be less, but depends on your choice of herbicide, and whether or not you apply it correctly. You may need to do it 2 times. It’s happened to us more than once. If you figure 1000 per rai, you’ll be safe. Buy your herbicide well. We have found huge differences in price by driving 80 kms or so. Our home area is very expensive. The 1000 baht per rai will cover your herbicide and application. Application has a wide range of prices too. We seen it from .8 baht per litre with my equipment, to 1 baht per litre with their equipment and then 1.5 baht per litre with my equipment. If you find a good guy, keep him happy. It’s not a job you want to do yourself. I’ve done it. Bought all the gear and spent a few days trying to do it myself because I was pissed at the sprayers, and in the end had them come and finish it with my gear. It’s a real shitty job if you are doing it by hand. A sprayer on a boom behind a tractor is best.

So worst case scenario planting cost is now 5900+1000+1000= 7900 per rai. Apply fertilizer one more time at 1000 baht because you buy good fertilizer, transport your workers and buy them food.

First year

-planting cost you 8900 baht.

Your yield may be as low as 10 tons or as high as 16 at farm gate price of 800 depending on your buyer. Could be as low as 700 so lets call it 750 per ton and lets say you average out at 13 tons per rai.

13 tonnes x750 baht per tonne = 9750 baht You just earned yourself a whopping 850 baht per rai in your first year.

Second year
no planting, one or two waterings, two fertilizings, one weed control.
Water 600
fertilizer 2000
Weeds 1000
Total 3600

Should get close to the same yield in your second year if you water, and fertilize.
9750 (13 tonne@ 750 per) minus 3600 leaves you 6150 baht per rai.

third year
yield will drop by 20 %

7500 (10 tonne) minus 3600 leaves you 3900


Fourth year
yield drops another 20 %

6000 baht (8 tonne) minus 3600 leaves you with 2400.

Fifth year replant


1st year 850
2nd year 6150
3rd year 3900
4th year 2400

Total 13,300 / 4 years = an average of 3325 per rai per year profit. I would not call that really good money. This assumes that god gave you this land and it has no cost associated with it whatsoever. So no investment in land or rental cost or cost of the money to invest in the land.

The only way to really calculate your cane farm profit is over your 3 or 4 year cycle after you have achieved that. We are heading into our 3rd year so my 3rd year and fourth year figures are estimates.

You can decrease your first year cost by using your own cane if you have any that you can use. It should be first or second year cane for planting. It should be in good health and about 10 -12 months old. Longer is better as you’ll be able to plant more. You can also decrease your cost significantly by doing your own tractor work if you have a tractor. You can also increase it it by doing it yourself f you don’t know what you are doing.

That is the reality of sugarcane growing.

What I have learned so far that i haven’t written yet is this:

Plan your crop well.

-If you want to improve the quality of your soil then grow a green manure crop first, throw some molasses around or some bagasse (kii oy), you should do this at the outset because once you plant, your in..... for hopefully 4 years. No turning back. You can have tankers of molasses come later after you cut a crop, but that’s all you can do.

- Know what tractor you will use for planting and subsequent work. You can save a lot of headache by planning your tractor. Measure the wheel spacing, space your rows so that your tractor can get in late and apply fertilize by machine or spray herbicide, or control weeds by mechanical tractor drawn means. This will make a huge difference in how your work gets done. The easy way or the hard way. Trust me, I’m still doing it the hard way because once you planted...right or wrong, you’re in. A row spacing of about a meter is good, but it depends on your tractor and if you will control weeds using the till method or only herbicide. (no till)

Plant in October/Nov planting season. Ground is still damp and you may get lucky and not have to irrigate at all. Your first year will be a good crop. If you plant in May (before the rains), you run the risk of the rains coming too much too fast. It could throw a real kink into your planting if you’ve cut your cane, but can’t transport it, or it’s at your plot, but you can’t get your tractor in to plant it and by the time you can, he’s busy doing something else. It’s a risky planting time.

Planting depth...depends. Deep is good, but takes longer to come up, and gives weeds a chance to compete with the cane. Could be problems. Deep will endure drought better. Shallow comes up well, beats the weeds, but doesn’t endure the drought well. Most people in my area try to plant about 6”. No deeper. It comes up well. The farmer is happy when the plants are up. I would call deep 12” and shallow 6” or less. The depth can also depend on how deep the tractor ploughed the ground in the first place. I plough deep. My planter runs a little deeper than most even though set up the same as the others. They don’t plough deep. Having said that, I’ve seen more problems from planting too deep than from planting shallow.

Herbicides. Prevention is better than trying to fix the problem once it has got too big if you can do it that way. Pre-emergent spraying is best. You may need to follow up with post emergent “spot spraying” later but it is way better then having a team trudge through 6 foot cane trying to kill weeds as tall as the cane. Father in law put us in this position one year. Expensive and a shitty job to have to do.

Water. Cane likes water. If you can find an efficient way of putting water in the field it’ll pay. If you’ve got one guy on a pipe on a kubota powered surface pump, it’s not cheap and it’s not efficient. It will help your cane survive a drought though. In our area, labour is hard to find. I moved to drip irrigation this year because of its efficiency. It was a little costly for the drip lines, but that’ll work itself out over a few years. I can get 2-3 times as much water down in a better way and my one and a half workers are free to do other jobs while the water goes out on its own. We have 2 to 3 rai systems that we move around. We put water down for about 12-16 hours then move the system. Reason for this is 100 rai. Lots of drip tape. Stuff runs about 1600 baht per roll (1 km long). So far I’ve got 20 kms out in the field. Drip is not that difficult but there is a bit of a learning curve.

Last thought on water. It’s expensive. One of the larger growers around here does not water. He only irrigates new cane. I’m looking more closely at what he does. He does a lot of it.


Harvesting Cane

A buyer comes and buys it at your negotiated price and terms. Not much to negotiate really. They set the price. They come with their burning team and burn the field. If it is a big field they may burn if off in 10 rai sections. Then the cutters come in and cut it. Once it is cut, trucks and loaders come in and take it away. The buyer will pay you typically dependent on the pay schedule of the sugar mill. Be careful. Don’t just blindly trust these guys. Supervise the trucks. Take plate numbers, full load/partial load etc. , color of truck, what time it left....write things down. I’ve seen their accounting methods. Trust me, don’t trust them to not make mistakes.

Growing it is half of it. Selling it is the other half. The profit is split along the same ratio. If you are efficient, planned things well, have your own tractor, and god was good to you, you may earn an average of 4-5000 per rai.....profit. Likewise, if you can open a quota with the mill, cut it and transport it yourself, you’ll earn the same roughly the same amount again. The problem with this is that to earn very much, you need lots of cane. Last year we grew about 1200 tonnes of it. At 50 tonnes per truckload, that’s 24 truckloads. Big trucks. 50 tonnes. Trucks cost (new) about 3,500,000 for truck and pup trailer. The problem then is one of logistics. Your truck is going to get stuck in the queue for days. could be 2, 3 or 4 days. So you need more than one truck....you can see where this is leading. If you have enough trucks, you have too much money tied up in trucks and you need to then start buying cane from others as well and transporting it on your quota. so in just trying to transport your own, you just started a new business. There is no real way around this. there are smaller “buy depots” that are private that you can sell to, but you do not get subsidies, sugar content (CCS) bonus, improvement bonuses or incentives. So you are better off selling it to the middle man for all the extra hassle and lack of compensation. There are also “small branches” of large mills that you can sell it to that are scattered about. You’ll get your bonuses etc, but they charge you to haul it to the factor/mill. So you get less. But the queues are typically much shorter.

We are still selling to the middleman. The next step is a big one and we re not willing to go there yet. The buying, burning, cutting, transporting and selling cane business is as difficult as the growing part of it, if not more so. Our middleman has 4 trucks and about 20 guys.

That’s about all I’ve got on this for now. If I’ve forgotten something, just ask I’ll try to answer. If I’ve got something wrong, just ask, we’ll try to get clarification.

There is much that I haven’t touched on. Mainly, more technical aspects of dirt testing and fertilization based on those tests, which will have an eventual impact on health of your plant and sugar content of the cane. Sugar content is only your concern if you are selling it to the mill. Otherwise your main concern is healthy heavy cane. We sell by weight.

There is a lot of this technical information available on the internet. I haven’t had the time nor the inclination to get myself educated about this aspect of growing...yet. It’s not that I don’t think it has value, I’m just tired. I’d rather do judo than spend time after working the farm studying the farm.

You guys go ahead and check my maths. I’m tired. I’ve gone through it quickly, but I’m not doing a spread sheet on it.

Hope this sheds some light on the sugarcane crop.

Pigeonjake...

I don't give a rat's ass how much respect I have lost or earned in your eyes.

I share what I know on this forum (which isn't much) when or if I can. I've learned a lot in the last few years (on my own) and taken my own lumps in this learning experience. I'd be happy to help anyone who wants to know about sugarcane farming. It's all I know at the moment.

RBH started this <deleted> with a condescending post and flat out insulting comments in another thread, and he brought it to this thread.

You go ahead and back up the guy that started it all. I'll stick to calling shit shit.

well we make money from our pigs,,,,,,

anhyone want to call me a lier,,,,???

jake,,,lol

Nope. But I'm curious. How many pigs and how much money? And how much does it cost to earn that?

K. My apologies to most. I'm out now.

this give a price of 20 to 35 baht per kilo, depending on the season, 2 to 6 fruit per kg

http://www.บ้านสับปะรด.com/index.php/2013-03-22-04-44-51

eminbon, you are a card mate...Awesome !

I THANK YOU emiubon for your contribution and appreciate very links to Thai language website, especially

PhuLaeChiangRai.com with current wholesale price of "their" business.

Here's some screenshots both in Thai and English (translated).

PhuLaeChiangRai2.JPGPhuLaeChiangRai1.JPGPhuLaeChiangRai.JPG

As usual just a note, this are the current prices of "Phu Lae" variety offered by only some wholesalers (not scammers) but doesn't apply to all in general (ChiangRai)...and a word of advice is, please check with your own area and follow up on current affair for wholesale prices. Might work and might not work. All conditions apply.

I thank you for your patient. Again this is not my plantation, it belongs to my neighbour.

Cheers and i wish you all well in your endeavours.

Hopefully this will be my last statement, if i find anything interesting which would arouse my spider senses, i will let you guys know...or maybe i won't.

Next ! - Jingthing

Again, these are wholesale selling prices from the buyers who buy from the farms, and are completely irrelevant to the thread which is based on growing pineapple and selling to the wholesalers at farm gate prices.

This word- " จำหน่าย " means to distribute or sell. Watch for this word. Or perhaps get your eyes checked.

There I am.... arguing with the idiot again.

this give a price of 20 to 35 baht per kilo, depending on the season, 2 to 6 fruit per kg

http://www.บ้านสับปะรด.com/index.php/2013-03-22-04-44-51

This is last years information. As well, it is based on orders of one hundred kg or more, and is a selling price, not buying. Totally unrelated information to this thread. Not sure why RBH likes this.

If you are going to post something in thai, you should take the time to read it. Even google translate can give you an idea of the translation and sometimes it is reasonably accurate.

I eventually always come back to this: (and sometimes it takes me a while to remember)

What is the opinion of an idiot?

When arguing with an idiot...... who is the idiot?

This usually shuts me up and puts me back on track.

Thanks Rice for your help. Timing and circumstance are forcing me to fertilize in the traditional method again this year. If I don't sell the farm this year, I'll be looking to try this next year on one of our plots.

Cheers

I think the op was baiting from the start.