IsaanAussie

Hi there,

amazing forum, I've been reading a lot here, yet this is my first posting. Living and working since 4 years in the south, my wife from udorn.

My wife is going to buy 22 rais up in Udorn, Baan Phue area. It's this government project land so we do not actually get the papers, just doing a contract with the current owner. I've read enough to know that this is not save, might loose the land, etc. But this is my wife's risk and she knows all those people and thinks it's not a problem. I can live with this since we buy for 15'000 baht a rai which seems to me a good price, no flooding area, already used for sugar cane for a few years, road access, etc.

To come to my question; Is the only risk to loose the land or is it actually illegal and my wife could get in some trouble with this?

The main purpose to buy the land is to give the family something to do and earn there own money instead of living on what they get from my wife and her sister.

Thanks in anticipation

CHFarang

Hi my assumed Swiss friend CH welcome,

I do not want to be presumptive but I assume that the risk capital on the land is not the issue. So with that in mind, I offer what benefit my nine years of living here has for you.

If the land is acquired and the family works it, and lets assume that they will actually do that so there is not a constant "additional" labour requirement. The issue for your wife, and I presume yourself, will be funding whatever they choose to grow. Farming equipment, seeding, planting, fertiliser etc..etc.. plus the cost of living while it grows should be calculated in advance as no farming enterprise will yield an instant result. Margins here are very slim and returns long term as they are anywhere in farming. Compound all of that with the onset of the dry season and the cost of establishing "self-sufficiency" will be quite high.

Before you become part of this equation, perhaps your wife and yourself should sit down and consider the non land purchase overhead costs, how much, and how can that expense be accounted for.

Remember that Thai people do not like to create problems for others and in "farang speak" are as a result reasonably economical with the truth.

Good luck, risk nothing but the money as life is too short.

Isaanaussie

The current Thailand rice crop has been planted at much higher than normal expense due to the extremely high prices of fertilizers etc , this money has in many cases been borrowed and spent and the harvest is only 4 - 6 weeks from starting.

My gut feeling after living through credit squeezes and financial downturns since the late 30,s is that the

Look for commodity prices including rice to be at least 20 % down on last seasons opening prices.

I hope my crystal ball is totally wrong ,but that is what I see.

Dom,

I believe you are spot on.

It doesnt matter where the farmers are, or for that matter where the sheep are, there are people called traders out there that want to make or break in the blink of an eye. Crops, animals, whatever, take a little longer for the farmer to realise. The investment in changing from one income stream to another is livelihood threathening for most farmers globally, not just Thailand. CP and Betagrow are one way to some stability for the small holding farmers, they won't get rich, but they will survive. Who are we, the Thai culturally maladjusted to say that large conglomerate "rental of land and people-for profit" is not the best, no easiest, way to preserve Thai Culture and the continuously smaller parcels of inherited land.

For me, Thai people, one in particular,is the reason I am fully committed, full time, to making this work. All I can do is Fit In. "UP to Me" TIT

For those of the members, probably most, who have more to draw on than me, relax there are no quick fixes anywhere, ride the horse/elephant you have chosen to sit on.

Isaanaussie

A farmer buys several pigs, hoping to breed them for ham, bacon, etc...

After several weeks, he notices that none of the pigs are getting pregnant, and calls a vet for help. The vet tells the farmer that he should try artificial insemination. The farmer doesn't have the slightest idea what this means but, not wanting to display his ignorance, only asks the vet how he will know when the pigs are pregnant. The vet tells him that they will stop standing around and will, instead, lay down and wallow in the mud when they are pregnant.

The farmer hangs up and gives it some thought. He comes to the conclusion that artificial insemination means he has to impregnate the pigs. So, he loads the pigs into his truck, drives them out into the woods, has sex with them all, brings them back and goes to bed.

Next morning, he wakes up and looks out at the pigs. Seeing that they are all still standing around. He concludes that the first try didn't take, and loads them into the truck again. He drives them out to the woods, bangs each pig twice for good measure, brings them back and goes to bed.

Next morning, he wakes to find the pigs still just standing around. One more try, he tells himself, and proceeds to load them up and drive them out to the woods. He spends all day shagging the pigs and, upon returning home, falls listlessly into bed.

The next morning, he cannot even raise himself from the bed to look at the pigs. He asks his wife to look out the window and tell him if the pigs are laying in the mud. "No," she says, "they're all in the truck and one of them is honking the horn."

A koala is sitting up a gum tree smoking a joint when a little lizard walks past , looks up and says "Hey Koala ! what are you doing?" The koala says: "Smoking a joint, come up and have some." So the little lizard climbs up and sits next to the koala and they have a few joints.

After a while the little lizard says his mouth is 'dry' and is going to get a drink from the farm dam. But the little lizard is so stoned that he leans too far over and falls into the water.

A crocodile sees this and swims over to the little lizard and helps him to the side, then asks the little lizard: "What's the matter with you?" The little lizard explains to the crocodile that he was sitting smoking a joint with the koala in the tree, got too stoned and then fell into the dam while taking a drink.

The crocodile says he has to check this out and walks over to the tree where the koala is sitting finishing a joint, and he looks up and says "Hey you!" So the koala looks down at him and says:

"Fuuuu - k dude.......how much water did you drink?!!"

Welcome to the forum.

Hypothetical scenario.....

You "give" the FIL 210k Baht.

FIL gives your wife the 20 Rai of land. (no property tax has to be paid.)

You "sign" a thirty year lease agreement with your wife.

The land "costs" you 300B per year.

IF you are both alive at the end of thirty years, and have offspring, I'm sure that is where the land will end up.

and whoever told you Euca doesn't make good money is pulling your leg (unless it is a long way to the nearest pulp mill).

Euca done correctly should make you between 3,500 - 5,500 per Rai per year with a lot less headache than rice for example.

AS to 10kB per Rai.

If the land is marginal farming land on SPG title, I wouldn't pay 10kB per Rai for it. Last parcel of SPG land we bought was 25 Rai for 90k and we'll have to wait another 5 - 7 years for the title up-grade so we can transfer it into our names.

If it is good farming land on chanote title - a steal.

If there is a good road and utilities running accross the front - sale of the century!

Soundman.

"Sounds" Like very good advice to me.

So let me offer my thoughts:

Firstly this year has seen a compression of the boom and bust cycle for farmers here. Early on rice prices went through the roof with farm gate prices doubling. Rubber reaching 100baht. Ethanol plants planned so crops like cassava were heavily promoted. The farmer seemed set to enjoy better income than ever.

New tractors, harvestors and vehicles went onto the credit card. Everything set for a good year.

The counter obviously, ballooning prices of material inputs as controls were relaxed and international commodity prices drove up fertiliser and imported goods prices. Thailand having 80% of its GDP derived from exports was primed to enjoy riches only as long as their markets continued to grow.

Now with a strong baht, more export competition, overseas market contraction and a government in disarray, Thailand stands on the brink.

I am in the investment phase of a small integrated farm. My funds are in AUD and now worth some 30% less than 3 months ago. In essence the safety net is shrinking fast. After much thought I have decided to plunge in regardless and albeit at a slower pace, complete those parts of my project that have revenue potential returns. The new house can wait.

My inputs will be focused at a local market, in my immediate proximity. Costs and prices must remain within that economy. Anything and everything that can be produced on farm rather than bought, will be. Ride out the storm.

In terms of mid term future, there will be many failures amongst the debt ridden farming community and many others that are compromised. The CP's of the world will take a larger slice of agriculture and the farming communities will continue to age and decline. More child minding and contract farming with increasing pressure on farm gate prices.

Long term? Well people have to eat, even if the dining table is on a rollercoaster

Hi Farmers,

In the last few weeks the number of posts to this forum seem to have dropped markedly. Perhaps everyone is distracted by the global economic situation. If that is the case it would be interesting to know what changes the members plan to make in their lives as a result. So treat this topic as an opportunity to exchange survival thoughts.

As a starter we are a disparate group, with members such as Maizefarmer whose 1500 Rai dwarfs us all, and many like me with under 20 Rai that now see their "perfect plan" now undercapitalised. We are also split between those that live in Thailand and those for whom Thailand is an occassional oasis for a period of time each year.

General opinion I hear is that Thailand, internally at least, will begin to feel the effects more at the grassroots level over the next months. What is going to happen? Has it effected you already? What changes will you make? How will the future pan out?

This joke was posted else where on TV I believe so with suitable unknown credit due here it is:

A dwarf with a lisp goes into a stud farm "I'd like to buy a horth"

He says to the owner of the farm.

"What sort of horse?" said the owner.

"A female horth" the dwarf replies.

So the owner shows him a mare.

"Nithe horth." says the dwarf, "Can I thee her eyeth?"

So the owner picks up the dwarf to show him the horses eyes.

"Nithe eyeth.", says the dwarf, "Can I thee her teeth?"

Again the owner picks up the dwarf to show him the horses teeth.

"Nithe teeth.... can I see her eerth?" the dwarf says.

By now the owner is getting a little fed up but again, picks up the

dwarf to show him the horses ears.

"Nithe eerth.' he says 'Now...can I see her twot?"

With this the owner picks the dwarf up by the scruff of his neck and

shoves his head deep inside the horses vagina.

He holds him there for a couple of seconds before pulling him out

and putting him down.

The dwarf shakes his head and says: "Perhaps I should weefwaze that...

"Can I see her wun awound?"

Just to clarify things a bit, it was the pig farmers slurry lagoon that overfilled and killed the river an fish,weeds ect, so that was fermented shit, not fresh,

Cheers, Lickey.

OK, thats different. The issue is the concentration levels. I'm no scientist but I do know that the slurry depletes the oxygen level in the water. In a storage pond there are no fish or weeds for that reason.

Thanks for the clarification.

Depends a bit on how you set it up. If dual-fuelled, you can go for about 80% biogas and 20% diesel oil and the engine will run without much of a problem. In practice the replacement rate is lower and a pig farm in Chiangrai manages a 62% replacement rate (62% gas and 38% diesel).

What you can also do (and what quite a few of the large pig farmers do here around Chiangmai) is to buy either secondhand petrol engines or converted diesel engines and run the engine on 100% biogas. In all cases you will require more maintenane due to the hydrogen sulphide in the gas and you will need to overhaul the engine in 3-5 years time.

ORL,

Thanks for your notes. I have some experience at 70-30% with NGV installations here, and since the NG here is low methane thought that those figures should be about the same as biogas would yield, 60-40% yeah not so bad. Hadn't actually considered using a petrol engine but its a good alternative as you dont have to have the diesel on site.

Any idea on the engine type and usage on ChiangMai pig farms?

Isaanaussie

Thanks for the explanation IA, its clear what happens after the gas is extracted and the nasties that its ok to use on the land ect,

Ive read on this forum somewhere that fisheries use slurry as food, but sureley not in its raw state? I remeber in the UK about 20 years ago a pig farmer let his neat slurry into a local river, killed everything downsteam for about 7 miles, even grass and weeds on the bank before local council found the source.

I cant help you much on the gas powered engine bit, but the engines i did work on had an extra oil feed into the intake manifold to make up for the lack of lubrication by gas for upper cyl lubricant,

If you know the type and model of Gennie you will be using, my older brother in the UK is a designer of pumping stations,gen set applications [from 1cyl Lister Petter to V16 perkins/cummins/komatshu engines] Post the info on the engine and if he can help you he will, He will need everything off the engine ID plate if posible.

Cheers, Lickey.

Lickey,

I wonder if your brother knows much about straight vegetable oil conversions for diesels. I am told there is an English company that markets kits for less than a thousand quid to suit the Ford Ranger. Next time you are talking to him, could you ask if he knows the company or the technology? Lister single cylinder, love to get my hands on one of those, burn almost anything, bit flat belts slapping around, great stuff...

By the way, I believe you owe me a joke in your humour thread.....

Isaanaussie

Thanks for the explanation IA, its clear what happens after the gas is extracted and the nasties that its ok to use on the land ect,

Ive read on this forum somewhere that fisheries use slurry as food, but sureley not in its raw state? I remeber in the UK about 20 years ago a pig farmer let his neat slurry into a local river, killed everything downsteam for about 7 miles, even grass and weeds on the bank before local council found the source.

I cant help you much on the gas powered engine bit, but the engines i did work on had an extra oil feed into the intake manifold to make up for the lack of lubrication by gas for upper cyl lubricant,

If you know the type and model of Gennie you will be using, my older brother in the UK is a designer of pumping stations,gen set applications [from 1cyl Lister Petter to V16 perkins/cummins/komatshu engines] Post the info on the engine and if he can help you he will, He will need everything off the engine ID plate if posible.

Cheers, Lickey.

Lickey,

I would hazard a guess that your UK polution problem was the result of detergent/disinfectant released by the farm and not the pig manure. Here washing the raw sewage into a pond is common practice and Pla nin etc flourish.

I am intending to use a pickup engine, type unknown as yet but it will be an older model for three reasons. Firstly no common rail technology, secondly the gas has traces of hydrogen sulphide in it and will probably be quite corrosive, and thirdly the AUD is getting a thumping at the moment. The gas technology I am basing my system on is a simple mixing valve system prior to injection.

I am thinking that a Mazda engine is probably the way to go as it develops higher torque at low revs than most, interested to hear what your brother has to say on that subject. Thanks for the offer.

Isaanaussie

Hi IssAus,

Good luck with your project and using the methane gas to your benifit, me. being an ex-truck driver/diesel engineer and now a fruit farmer in Thailand, please could you explain something for me.

I see you will have dome tanks, part of which is underground? the pig slurry goes in and you collect the gas ect, so what happens when the tanks are full?is it possible to bag it and flog by the roadside or does it need to be pumped out and broadcast onto farming land, or other uses?

Thanks, Lickey.

Lickey,

The attached diagram shows the two domed tanks.

First the digester where the gas is produced, and an expansion chamber to the left. As unused gas collects in the digester the slurry is forced up into the expansion chamber, as gas is expended or vented the slurry returns to the digester. The digester is sized to hold the influent for 40 to 60 days in which time all the nasties are eliminated. After that time processed effluent slurry then flows out of the expansion chamber and into a holding tank or pit as shown to the left. In my case I am planning to use 2 sand filters to seperate solids for the liquid component.

So no you do not have to pump out the tanks the material flows through all by itself.

I plan to use the dries solids for vermicomposting, after that bag those results as fast as I can if there is a market as worm castings make great potting mix and mushroom base. Use it myself probably. The worms go into the chicken coup, pig feed and the fish pond.

The liquid effluent will go straight onto the garden, and perhaps into a hydropondic shed at some later stage

Hope that provides you with your answers.

Now my question for a diesel engineer, and parked up truck driver. How much do you know about gas replacement ratios in diesel engines? I am looking for some information to prepare for the methane usage. Plan to use it for electricity generation, and also for drying.

Isaanaussie

As is the case in Thailand, a farang man finds the girl of his dreams. They fall in love and decide to marry and move to her village to live. So it is all arranged and he arrives for the first time in any small rural community. The ceremony is held, the food and drink consumed and after they have dropped from dancing they decide to retire for the night. Upstairs he is shocked to find literally dozens of people sleeping on the open plan floor and can only stutter "But what about... you know... us and .." At this point the bride to rescue her husband and using the secret code language of English, offers a suggestion. "Look if you are horny, just touch my right breast. If not the left one,OK?" "Thanks, good idea. ...Oh, and by the way if you're horny just give the old fella a tug. If not tug it about fifty times.."

The new policemen is putting around his village on the rot chukeyan checking it out when he spots a three legged pig standing besides Khun farmer said states "Khun, that pig has only got three legs." "Chai" said the farmer.

"Who is going to buy a pig with three legs?" asking the policemen. "No-one, but he is sort of a pet." says the farmer. "See he saved my life once by pulling me out of the flood water, and he saved my wife's life when he dragged her out of a house fire. So how could I sell me now? explains the farmer.

"OK, but how come he only has three legs? asks the Boy in Brown. "Well," explains the farmer, "I just haven't got the heart to eat him all at once."

A group of wandering Thai minstrels are cruising along on top of all their worldly goods, on a pickup truck when the vehicle suddenly screeches to a halt, the driver jumps out and yells at the musicians spread all over the road. "Did you see that?" "What" says the trombone player as he removes the instrument slide from his left nostril. "That three legged chicken" says the driver, "It ran up that driveway into that farm at a thousand miles an hour". "Kee Wua" said the drummer. "Ching" exclaims the driver and in order to prove it he took off in pursuit with limping accompanyment.

On reaching the farmhouse the group is stopped by the farmer, "What do you want?". "He says he saw a three legged chicken run in here" says the tamborine player. "So what?" says the farmer. "You mean it true?" asks the hopeful driver. "Open your eyes they are everywhere, see" points the farmer. "Wow, where did you get them?" fires back the driver seeing larger crowds with a stage full of the birds.

"Didn't get them anywhere, I bred them. See the mia, the lok chai and me all like the drum stick best. So what could I do? Had to breed a third leg into them. Good thigh meat too." boasts the farmer. "Really.." says one of the dancers, "What do they taste like?" To which the farmer responds, "Dont know, never been able to catch one"

Even farmers can be poetic.

I like the girls that do,

I like the girls that don't,

I hate the girl that says she will

And then she says she wont,

But the girl I like the best of all

And I think you'll say I'm right,

Is the girl that says she never does,

But she looks as though she might.

Obviously a milk maid

Isaanaussie

Some ponds on our land

Spiny,

What can anyone say, simply beautiful... I have some large ones to build on 12 rai currently rice.. I will keep yours in mind although looks for my ponds will not be as important. Again they look great

Isaanaussie

Isaan, nice pond. I dare say you'd be paying a bit more than that these days - especially if you were bringing the money from Oz.

We've decided on doing a much smaller pond, something a bit more ornamental. I've found a source for the liner, a roll of 2.2m x .25mm x 50m is B5,700 or a single meter costs B160. We will put a ring beam around the top for the liner to sit on and then have stones/bricks on top of the liner to hold everything together.

Smithson,

Of course I didnt mention the cost of the concrete mixer etc.. or the labour.. more interested in the picture. Like you I have a lot of finishing to do, fountains and bridges yardy yar... Yes, you are right it will cost a lot more to finish.. and currently FOREX is a major stumbling block.. TIT

I am interested in the plastic sheeting though, I am looking for a water barrier for under the floor in the pig sty. You may have noticed the columns in the background. That sounds like it may be the go.

Can you supply details. Thanks in advance.

Isaanaussie

A few ques about ponds that don't hold water. We've got a deep pond on our land, but it's drains because of the sandy soil. From what I've been reading there are 3 solutions:

- Concrete, which is expensive

- Pond liners, which seem a bit expensive.

- Clay lining, as shown from pics on other pages.

I've asked around about clay lining and the locals haven't heard of it. They seem very skeptical. Eventually I'd like to have fish for personal consumption, so holding water would be good.

Does anybody have more info on the effectiveness of the clay lining?

Smithson,

I thought I would show you my pond, photo attached. It is reinforced concrete sided (about 250mm thick) I have not done the base as yet. Dimensional it is 125metres in perimeter and is 2.5 metres deep. It was built in 2002 for around 100,000 baht, included the 35,000 baht for the macro. As others have stated the water level goes down in the dry to about 1 metre deep and as shown in this picture (Sept 08) is about 2 metres deep in the wet. The main reason this was concreted is I intend to build a house in the middle of the U shape and the pond is close (10m) to the boundary of the block, starting whenever something positive happens to the AUD/Baht exchange rate.

Isaanaussie

In Thailand there is no such a thing as a partial release, either the entire shipment is released or none of it.

fyi..

This is no longer the case... now that the freezone warehouses are up and running, it is now possible to clear partial shipments.

FYI, if still interested,

The Australian Thai FTA has specific rules of origin. In order to satisfy for the reduced tariff your source must be registered and the paperwork supplied through the correct channels in Australia. If the Aussie content is not high enmough then you will not be able to claim the TAFTA rates.

Isaanaussie

Here is the site photo as it stands. The grassed area in the foreground is where we will build the digester. The posts behind are for the pig sty.

Thats it,sell the farm,buy a resturant,spend 30 mil and sell the power to the pea for 180 mil.

Jo Jo,

No, open a restaurant at the farm. Government pays to install your biodigester..... Doesnt say anything about success of the restaurant business but the gas would be handy.

Isaanaussie

Alright,you design it,maizefarmer can be the consultant and i will construct it!

OK,

I have the design for a range of dome digesters and even how to do sheets (yes in English). My part done. You get Maizefarmer to consult and I will prepare the site. Let me know when you can start building.

Thats it,sell the farm,buy a resturant,spend 30 mil and sell the power to the pea for 180 mil.

Jo Jo,

No, open a restaurant at the farm. Government pays to install your biodigester..... Doesnt say anything about success of the restaurant business but the gas would be handy.

Isaanaussie

Hi Fruity

It looks like you have a good frog growing system going.

Dear Wagner,

As far as I know Fruity has yet to get his computer back on the air. I will contact him and pass on your message. If he is interested I will PM you his details and you can contact him when you come to LOS next. He is in Buri Ram.

Isaanaussie