Gaccha

Hey

I know this is the thai language forum but maybe some of you knows..

Is there anywhere in Bangkok I can study japanese at beginners level up to the The Japanese-Language Proficiency Test (JLPT) /Nihongo Noryoku Shiken? Maybe an intensive study over 6 months?

Thank you

You have a lot of options. A lot of the language schools that teach Thai, teach Japanese. Piammitr Language School offers Japanese classes at a decent rate for about 2 hours a day. You could increase the intensity by taking classes at another school as well. But what is your aim? You say up to JLPT level. There are four JLPT levels. You will easily pass Level 4 if you get out of bed and attend the 2 hour classes a day for 6 months. With a lot of effort you could pass the Level 3. If you want to pass Level 2, that is virtually impossible, and if you want to pass Level 1 (12,000 words and 1250 chinese characters) then you are dreaming.

For anyone intermediate (passed Level 3 level) and above I would recommend visiting the Japan Foundation where they have a pic'n'mix selection courses: everything from Manga reading studies to drama/movie studies. They have specialist courses to pass the JLPT and they have a large library with a wide selection of test materials, CDs, and DVDs of Japanese movies.

Thanks Gaccha, the Japan Fundation sounds cool, im looking to complete level 3 as its the equivalent of Beginners Japanese A at the university i want to apply at.

So, now thats clear, do you have any idea how much the entire course would cost? Also, is there good oppoutunities to practise the language with japanese students at any of the schools or somewhere else?

I was being a little shady on the costs because I'm not sure. The classes at the Japan Foundation are virtually all 1,000 bahts but the information sheet I have doesn't say how long this is for... I think the staff said 4 weeks. I think you might have to take a look. The offices are at the Skytrain/underground junction on Sukhummvit. Google for details. You'll need to go to have a look at the fantastic library. It is very cheap to join.

As for Piammitr, I can't remember the cost, but I remember thinking it was competitive, probably around 3,500 bahts a month.

I think if I was choosing, I would want a class with a Japanese teacher, rather than a thai or a farang, but that is your call: there are pluses and minuses with both. Both the Japan Foundation and Piammitr use both. Piammitr are more than willing to have a chat with you. Just go their offices in the "Trendy" building just off Soi 13 of Sukhummvit. I would personally use both schools as there methods are quite distinct. The Japan Foundation is trying to clean up errors in your Japanese, the language school is trying to ste-by-step progress you. The Japan Foundation has specific classes for passing the Level 2 and Level 1, but not, I'm afraid, Level 3. But hey, just take the "drama class'-- sounds like great fun.

Hey

I know this is the thai language forum but maybe some of you knows..

Is there anywhere in Bangkok I can study japanese at beginners level up to the The Japanese-Language Proficiency Test (JLPT) /Nihongo Noryoku Shiken? Maybe an intensive study over 6 months?

Thank you

You have a lot of options. A lot of the language schools that teach Thai, teach Japanese. Piammitr Language School offers Japanese classes at a decent rate for about 2 hours a day. You could increase the intensity by taking classes at another school as well. But what is your aim? You say up to JLPT level. There are four JLPT levels. You will easily pass Level 4 if you get out of bed and attend the 2 hour classes a day for 6 months. With a lot of effort you could pass the Level 3. If you want to pass Level 2, that is virtually impossible, and if you want to pass Level 1 (12,000 words and 1250 chinese characters) then you are dreaming.

For anyone intermediate (passed Level 3 level) and above I would recommend visiting the Japan Foundation where they have a pic'n'mix selection courses: everything from Manga reading studies to drama/movie studies. They have specialist courses to pass the JLPT and they have a large library with a wide selection of test materials, CDs, and DVDs of Japanese movies.

It seems to me all you have to do is work relentlessly on your tones.

I'm not sure why you think it's tones. When I hear Thais speak, I don't hear words at all. It's just noise. When I listen to my wife speak to her family, friends, or even service people at The Mall I always listen very carefully but I almost never understand anything. But, if I can get my wife to write it down (in Thai) or repeat it back, I almost always understand. At least I can hear words and know which ones I know and which ones I don't.

I think my problem is more fundamental than tones. In other words, I don't yet hear Thai well enough for tones to be a problem. I've been struggling with this for many years now. I can understand Thai Lesson Thai (Rosetta Stone or Pimsleur or Becker), I just can't understand Thai as spoken in the real world; this in spite of three years of listening, eavesdropping, soap operas, news, etc., etc.

I apologize for the Windows crack. I get more annoyed than I should when I run across someone who assumes that the entire world runs on Windows....

(And, yes, Kris, I do know how to search for Mac software....)

You are just describing sometihng that everyone goes through, I suspect. Are you saying not a single word in Thai is understood by you? Within one week of living in Thailand I could comfortably hear the numbers when they were spoken (even in conversations near to me of which I was not privy). I can't imagine after 3 years you can't hear them. So I bet you can hear some.

I note you can understand after having it written down. Yikes! You are on a hiding to nothing. A great big flashing beacon went on when I read that. This is the worst thing you can do for listening practice. Okay, let me tell you exactly how to learn how to listen. Watch and record a news story. Nothing fancy-- ideally a murder. The story should be about 1 minute long. Look up or guess the vocabulary before listening again. Record the story on your MP3 player (ie. no visual stimulae). Listen to it and then try to write every word down (of course, if you don't hear "words", then try to write any sounds you hear). Do this at least 15 times before giving up (when you get more used to this you should be doing it 40-50 times). While listening write sounds you want to check in the dictionary. After that, have your Thai wife write exactly the dialogue. Look up words you didn't know, listen again and again and again. Eventually the 1 minute dialogue will be very easy to follow-- so easy that for a moment you will think you are suddenly fluent. (However, if you were to listen to another dialogue it will feel hopeless again). You will be able to return to this dialogue in 2 months and still have a remarkable ability to understand it. You will find that you start liking certain phrases, tones of voice. This is good-- you are moving away from relying on having it written down or spoken artificially slowly to you.

As an alternative, you can try Western movies dubbed into Thai. You will be familiar with the dialogues in English (so you can guess the vocab), you know you enjoy the movie (so you can persist) and there is a certain excitement in learning how to say your favourite phrases in your target language (how does Yoda say: "No. Try not. Do or do not . There is no try." in Thai?).

You are in an ideal position to do this. You have a large vocab but your ears are not used to it. I can remember using a word in conversation and then not understanding the word when it was spoken back to me: not because of a tone or accent but simply because my brain had not learnt the word "to hear it").

Please trust me on this. Your listening ability is going to skyrocket but give it 6 months of 30 minutes a day before you are P8 level.

Post 90 asked about studying at Thamassat or Chula. Well, I happen to know about Thamassat.

They have 36 hours for 5,500 bahts.

Courses are 2pm- 5pm. And there are two: "Listening & Speaking" and "Reading & Writing". There are three levels of each.

As an example, Reading Level 3 is described as "Study of the more complex vocabulary, idioms, and structutres". I have no idea what is their teaching method but they will not do a class without 7 people.

They only operate subject to demand. Next course is 5 Aug- 12 Sept.

So if you are keen on an uncompetitive price, of an infrequent course, for a course that might not run through all the levels, then head to the classes in the Department of Thai in the Faculty of Liberal Arts (first on the left when you walk into the campus from the main South side entrance).

You can e-mail them at basicthai#yahoo.com

...and this is what you have been waiting for. The excitement is palpable.

Think that it is. Now we just need someone of a higher level and greater wisdom to paraphrase the contents, elucidate their thoughts, challenge our misconceptions, and then we can all head to bed in peace.

...oh, and just to add to the excitement, some of the pages have been scanned upside down.

A Thai test for what purpose?

I think he/she (the OP) must be talking about a/the language test for P.R. can the OP clarify please?

It is a test designed *for foreigners*.

Okay, I have a little more information. The Thai government, rather surprisingly , has failed to update its website for this new test, but here is the website address for when they get around to it, apparently in the next couple of months. It's all in Thai, so it will be even more language practice for you all...

http://bet.bopp.go.th/

Thai is hard to pronounce for many farang (certainly harder than japanese)

And there lies the crux of the matter. I know lots of Thai words, but when I'm out in the real world I almost never recognize spoken words that I know or understand what I hear. If I listen to Rosetta Stone or Pimsleru or a Becker tape, no problem. I got it. But, step out to 7/11 and it's all just unrecognizable noise.

It seems to me all you have to do is work relentlessly on your tones. And this is how to do it. It seems your ears are not cooperating. You need to study the matter. Do you really know the tones of Thai? For example, the falling tone doesn't actually just fall-- it initially rises and then falls. The mid tone is not flat: it actually rises very slightly in the first half. You can see this if you look at the Thai language entry on http://slice-of-thai.com/tones/. Your solution is then to download "Frequency voice analyser software" and practise matching your voice to those tones. I recommend "voice viewer" from slice-of-thai. There then follows hours and hours of tedium until your voice and ears "get it". Don't worry you can do tone changes, as English has them.

As for your Japanese ability, the Japanese, like the Thais, are not ones to ration their compliments. In Japan, you know you are really good when they stop complimenting.

Japanese is much easier to learn than Thai. It is not a tonal language. It has few homophones. The grammar is simple. I never lived in Japan, but my Japanese is many times better than my Thai.

I feel as a Japanese speaker and to be well-read on applied linguistics I must not let this pass.

Assuming you are a native English speaker, you are totally wrong. In a survey for the US diplomatic corps: "The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of the US Department of State has compiled approximate learning expectations for a number of languages"[2]. Of the 70 languages analyzed, the 5 most difficult languages to reach proficiency in speaking and proficiency in reading (for native English speakers who already know other languages), requiring 88 weeks, are: "Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean", with Japanese being the most difficult.

Or how about this:

"According to a survey by the British Foreign Office among its diplomatic staff, the most difficult language to learn for adult English speakers is Hungarian, followed by Japanese."

As a point of information, Hungarian and Japanese are in the same lanaguage group.

In a sense the argument you make is itself self-contraindicative. The tones of Thai suggest Thai will have less homophones than Japanese, and that is indeed the case. Japanese has a staggering number of homophones.

Japanese grammar is acutely difficult for the English native speaker as it is has so many fresh concepts. In contrast, Thai up to intermediate level is very familiar to the English speaker.

To be fair to you, in deciding difficulty there are many local factors at play: availability of textbooks and their quality, the motivation of the learner, the character of the learner (extrovert or not).

I hope this may lead to some self-reflection, or as the Japanese say, hansei.

Currently I have no further information but give me a few days and I will try to get a website off those in the know. Before:

As for the earlier replies, the test is to see how good your Thai is. You might want to do this for fun, or to prove you can study in the Thai language at University, or for certain jobs such as a reporter, banker, diplomat. I am soprry if this sounds patronising -- it is possible I am missing the point of the earlier replies. Why climb a mountain? Why go to the moon? Not because it is easy but because it is hard: master Thai and then prove your level. Simple, really .

Apologies if this is old news, but I have just found out that the Thai government has launched a new exam for foreigners to test their Thai language ability . It has 6 levels. The hardest level is level 6. Level 3 is equivalent to the P6 exam, which we are all probably aware of. The Level 6 is equivalent to University entrance standard.

It is 36% listening test, with the remainder writing/grammar. Apparently it is based on the IELTS exam.

And can anyone confirm what I have said and add further details?

It is only possible once a year (so if you fail you'll have to wait a year before you get a second chance, so pick the level you can definitely pass and get a high mark). It is scheduled this year for November.

With all this talk of the Mach 3 I am tempted to chuck out the Tesco-own brand that I've just used that tried to rip my face off. It is annoying having to remember all those things about following the natural growth of the hair...

as gay as this might sound :

1) exfoliate scrub before shaving

2) let the shower heat get your face nice and hot before shaving in the shower

3) shave with the grain, not against(not 100% smooth as a bargirls bottom, but still ok)

4) keep shaver sharp by drying it after shave and storing in a dry place

It's annoying that I am actually going to have to take this advice. Found a photo of my love of my life here: http://www.wilkinsonsword.co.uk/men/showro...ctor_3d_diamond This does look like a plug, but then the odds of a huge multi-national starting a forum topic seem pretty unlikely.

In England there is a Wilkinson Sword Diamond 3D Protector. Unlike every other shaver in the entire World, the gimmick in this shaver really really works. It is just 5-6 metal strips that totally stop you cutting yourself. And it is driving me bananas that I can't find it in Bangkok. Help!

They are sold worldwide under various brand names. In the US they come under Schtick. I used them when I lived in Japan. Where can I find them? At Tesco and Boots they only seem to sell Proctor and Gamble's Gilette range.

When using a Protector I can shave without shaving foam in the shower in 2 minutes. When I use an ordinary shaver it takes 10 minutes, cuts everywhere and lots of bloodied tissues...

I find it very weird that you have to bargain with big chains such as CW. Same with double pricing. I just recently visited a CF and found the sales personnel both way overaggressive and incompetent. The recent offer now seems to be 399 for the first month, and 999 after that.

I got 2 years membership for 11,000 . A renewal fee of 100. This includes yoga, swimming pool access, but not the fitness trainers. I think this is as good as it gets. A Thai friend of mine is on 3,000 a month!

I ask this, as despite a huge number of e-mails and filling in their on-line form I have heard nothing back from them about entering the class. I do intend to pay. I have therefore inductively reasoned that they must be an anti-capitalist neo-syndacalist commune .

This is my best guess. Any thoughts?

Are you talking about Piammitr thai school in the Jasmine Building near Asoke?

If so, for the last week or so the school has been closed bc they're moving to Sukhumvit Soi 13.

I go back on the 21st when they re-open.

May explain why your not hearing anything from them.

Hope this helps

That is a great explanation-- might also explain some odd (type-of-thing-that-you-get-on-fake-websites) mistakes on the website... I will patiently await their moving. I hope they are moving somewhere larger to reflect their success rather than downgrading to a corner of a beer bar on soi 13...

I ask this, as despite a huge number of e-mails and filling in their on-line form I have heard nothing back from them about entering the class. I do intend to pay. I have therefore inductively reasoned that they must be an anti-capitalist neo-syndacalist commune .

This is my best guess. Any thoughts?

Indy is back, and you know that you want to be him. SO where do you get the kit in Bangkok??

The Indy hat is a wide-brimmed, crown fedora made by a small hat firm on St James street in London's West End. So that rules out walking to the shop to buy it.

And the leather jacket is an English maker as well. So where to go?

Any suggestions so that I'll have something to go with my whip for the Indy screening at Siam?

I have discovered the Thai Language Proficiency Exam. It has 5 levels. The highest level it describes as translator level. It has a speaking, hearing and writing test. The Level 3 is equivalent to the Thai Junior High School 2nd grade. So, as is the tradition with Japanese exams, they get exponiatially harder (like the Richter scale: ie a richter scale 5 earthquake is 100 times less powerful than a 7, and a 1000 times less powerful than an 8)

It sounds ideal except that it is an exam for Japanese. And it requires translation to Japanese to prove Thai ability, which makes it useless for anyone but native Japanese speakers.

This exam is run by the Association For Thai Language Certification.

I intend to contact them and see if they will expand their operations. The Japanese are used to doing exams for everything. There are ironing certification exams for japanese people to pass. So the market, while smaller, is more lucrative than testing English speakers in Thailand.

The homepage is here: http://www.thaigokentei.com/

Anyone think it is a goer?

I reckon in a year or two there is a possibility that something might just turn up that could save us all. The Japanese manufactured dictionaries have slowly extended their range of languages (Mandarin, French, Italian), and we just need them to "turn" to Thai. These dictionaries oddly are unavailable outside of Japan (in a very strict sense: they will not allow you to buy them out of Japan-- presumably for licensing reasons on the dictionaries such as "Oxford English" that are implanted into the dictionary). When they get around to doing Thai, it will be superb and miles ahead of anything that can be bought in Thailand.

My guess is that in 2 years, instead of visa runs, "dictionary runs" will be the new thing. Heading to Tokyo and back over the weekend...

In the meantime, take a look at what is out there. Canon, Sony... Look at wikipedia and electronic dictionaries for some insight. It just excites me reading it. My Canon Wordtank has:

• A Total Of 20 Dictionaries
  
• Kenkyusha English-Japanese Dictionary - 380,000
  
• Genius English-Japanese Dictionary - 255,000
  
• Readers English-Japanese Dictionary 2nd Edition - 270,000
  
• Readers Plus English-Japanese Dictionary - 190,000
  
• Concise Katakana Dictionary - 55,200
  
• Kanji Character Dictionary - 13,112
  
• Japanese Synonym Dictionary - 79,000
  
• The Oxford English-English Dictionary 2nd Edition - 250,000
  
• The New Oxford English-English Dictionary - 355,000
  
• The Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus - 310,000
  
• The Oxford English and Cultural Guide 2nd Edition - 9,000
  
• The Oxford Business Encyclopedia - 6,500
  
• The Oxford Encyclopedia - 12,000
  
• The Oxford Today English-English Dictionary 6th Edition - 80,000
  
• The Oxford English Guide to British and American Culture- 9,000
  
• The English Oxford Thesaurus - 600,000
  
• Shinwa English Dictionary 5th Edition - 480,000
  
• Spoken Language English Dictionary - 23,000
  
• USA Today Encyclopedia of America - 12,000
  
• Opposite Words Pulling Dictionary - 250,000
  

It's shocking isn't it... If it was a book it would be 9ft wide.

There are phrases, even words, that do not fit neatly into either "Grammar books" or dictionaries.

When I learnt Japanese, they were a huge pain (partly because the concept of a word is ambiguous in Japanese). But help arrived with a book, and I 'm not kidding, called "Core words and phrases: things you can't find in a dictionary" [Kakuko Shoji, Kodansahe International, 1999].

Is there an equivalent for Thai??

The best grammar guide I have is David Smyth's "Thai: An essential grammar".

My guess on this is "no". There must be less learners of Thai than Japanese. I notice that there tends to be lots of texts for learning at the beginning level and then very few at intermediate and then you are on your own for advanced level.

The company came back to me and said the following:

1. Where is the 450,000 word dictonary from? Is it licensed? Is it "Oxford English"? Did you make it yourselves? > All dictionary bases used in the dictionary are the property of our company and are developed by us independently.

> 2. How many example sentences are there?>14.000 sentences

> 3. Can you provide a picture/photograph of a typical search. (eg. If I look up "focus" can you show the result to me)> Pls. look web-page: Dictionary picture

>

> Where can I buy this item in Bangkok?>I think, that in this city it to buy it is impossible. Only it is possible to order through the Internet. Term of performance of the order of 4-6 days (delivery by company FedEx) after reception of money for our account.

[the Company is based in Czech] The answers to no.1 and no.2 questions are bad news. Only 14,000 example sentences for 400,000 words. Really we should be looking for 1,500,000 example sentences for a decent dictionary.

Anyone any other suggestions. I am beginning to suspect that Thai dictionaries are some 3 technology cycles behind Japan. The Canon Word Tank I bought in 1997 was a first generation model but was still better than anything I have seen in Thailand. On the other hand, I did tend to find there were very few people who had really checked out the market and knew the best machines to look at so I remain positive that someone in the forum knows something I don't...

Looking at the model, annoyingly it doesn't have a detailed visual picture of the dictionary function.

It definitely has enough words. And comes in around the right price.

The dangers are:

What dictionary is used? The best dictionaries like say the "Oxford English" are very expensive to license. it looks like the dictionary company have just made their own.

Are there example sentences?

There seem to be a lot of gimmicks (clocks/calculators). Not in themselves a bad thing, but it might indicate that the precious memory space is being wasted. In Japanese dictionaries, you can easily separate the wheat from the chaff by the gimmicks available.

Precious memory is used up for English language learners.

I will e-mail the company. See what they have to say. Anyone seen these in Thailand?

I want a proper electronic dictionary. This means one that provides definitions and exampels exactly like that of a huge dictionary. The best in the World are the dictionaries the Japanese make for themselves to learn English (& 24% of Japanese own them, apparently)--like the Canon Wordtank.

Is there anything like this for Thai-English. I've looked at Talkingdict and some others and none seem to provide this strong function of example sentences and clear/clearly de-lineated definitions. Bizarrely, one dictionary I found, in the Jap-Thai function only, has example sentences.

As a minimum the dictionary would need a vocabulary of 400,000 words. My Japanese electronic dictionary has 450,000 words (and still I look up words that aren't in it). And every single definition has to have at least 2 example sentences.

I have no interest in these travel/tourist/talking dictionaries. It is not for "making do" or "getting by", it is for serious langauge study. I would anticipate this dictionary will cost 500 US dollars. If no such thing exists what is there closest?

Any high-level Thai language speakers/writers have an answer?

Anyone know of any informal/formal groups for Japanese language get-togethers of people in their 30s or thereabouts. I passed the JLPT level 1 some time ago, so not looking for Japanese language classes, just looking to use those hard earned skills...

Cheers