StreetCowboy

My understanding was that the recent events were the result of informal feudal barons being cut out of a share of corruption by a government trying to bring Thailand out of the middle ages, and a last-ditch attempt to restore their power and wealth, before the information age eroded the barons' ability to control their north-eastern peasants.

Its surprising how people can have such varying interpretations of the same events; and how little they will listen to other interpretations.

That's my contribution to getting this thread closed

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That is a cop out...its so easy to turn to that profession or something else like drug dealing or burglary to feed your family rather than work hard for a lot less. That to me is real LOSS OF FACE if you do that.

That's your face, not theirs.

A lot of people feel that drug-dealing or burglary are harmful trades, and eschew such activities, for reasons other than concern about loss of face.

A lot of people find prostitution an unpleasant trade to work in - I'm guessing largely because of the people they meet in it - and soldier on with whatever else they choose to do instead, whereas others choose to bear the unpleasantness. I think that we should be treating everyone with respect, whether they do a job to which we aspire or not, setting aside for a moment moral judgement and bigotry. Just because someone engages in a trade we abhor, whether it be debt collector, publican or game show host, we should not judge them just on the basis of their profession, or our image of that profession.

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It may have the makings of a revolution. One could argue that Thailand is in a pre-revolutionary situation. The shortsightedness and disunity of the present red leadership doesn't negate the fact that the underprivileged, especially from certain regions, are angry and have support in the city. They're also fuelled by ethnic differences, but not religious ones. Encircling the city is a maoist strategy isn't it, and especially effective when you have fifth columnists (cab drivers, motorcycle taxi men, etc.) inside. Still, both the amartya and the red backers have too much invested in the present system to allow genuine revolutionaries to get much influence I think.

Revolutions are projected as noble and romantic in the rhetoric of their supporters (and Hollywood scriptwriters), but the histories of the French and Russian revolutions reveal lots of incompetence, disorganization, communication breakdown, good intentions gone awry, internecine fighting, demagoguery, emotionalism, disappointment, disillusion and, eventually, corruption and decay. You may know the saying: "Revolution is a mother who eats her own children".

I was in Vientiane when it was "liberated" in August 1975 and remained till the end of that year. Even that short time was enough to demonstrate that people who make revolutions are hopeless governors - incompetent, having no respect for truth and honour, worldly and easily corrupted, ready to set aside their professed ideals the moment their personal status or power is questioned. Look at what a revolutionary says a year before victory and look at what he's saying and doing a year after (and not simply because they're under pressure). It'll be the same here if the promoters of "class war" get their way.

I retract my rant and defer to Xangsamhua's astute observations, especially the bold font (my edit). Got it off my chest. though, and it feels good.

P.S. I guess I was really thinking of the flawless American revolution with all its high ideals, high ethics, riveting non-stop drama, handsome-young-Heath-Ledger-type warriors, and impeccable noble leadership...if the movie "Patriot" is any indication.

I think "War of Independence" is a better turn of phrase for rebellion led by the slave-owning British landowners against the crown - some of the wealthiest individuals in the Empire at the time. Anyway, that one all seems to have turned out for the best...

Though unlike Toptuan, that was before my time, so I can't comment too much on it (oops - already have).

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I am not referring to the situation now. I am referring to the functioning of a mature democracy. A military coup would not be allowed to take place in the USA. PERIOD and i do not think it would be condoned in UK either. I leave this thread with that said.

I think you had a functioning democracy - and then two functioning democracies - last time you had a civil war.

I guess that we are lucky that our democratic processes are effective enough to return us a government that is accepted by the vast majority of the country - crown, people and institutions alike, regardless of whether it is the government that they actually wanted.

But to blame the government for the actions of the army under a different government seems - obtuse. This government could not have prevented or averted or in any way mitigated that coup, and this government was formed by elected politicians, same as each previous government. I suggest that you take up the issue of ineffective government and coups with former politicians and fugitives.

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My apologies for maintaining this off-topic digression, and I understand fully that the mods may wish to delete this post as being off-topic. However, I do not want to leave the quoted post unanswered, for fear that others might think it relevant to the topic.

Loss of Face in Thailand , you gotta be kidding, its a myth. I would never borrow money from anyone as I think that is a loss of face, yet Thais are always sponging off people and not paying it back. Another example is one of the common professions amongst women,that is another area that shows they just dont have any pride or care about loosing face.

Your face is different.

Maybe that's because you're a foreigner. You can tell foreigners from their face. Its scarcely surprising.

I imagine some people think that looking after their families is more important than the work they do to achieve that, and would feel that they had lost more face if they could not feed their children than if people found out that they were a consultant or a banker.

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EDIT: Accidental double post - can be deleted.

Apologies

SC

Imagine if a radical minority party tried to achieve separatism in a small part of the UK through a violent campaign hiding behind peaceful protesters, and allegedly discharging firearms at the security forces....

Would they be allowed to set up a fortress in the streets and stand off against the security forces for several weeks?

I think the big difference is in the training and equipment of the security forces, not any difference in the politics.

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If the coup had taken place in my country, the leaders would have been executed. Armed citizen militias would have been organized to take out any junta that remained. It would be a fight to death for millions. The US does not take kindly to these military coups! It never would have gotten to this junta-assisted puppet govt.

From a fellow American I agree with you. The battle would be immense. I hated Bush with a passion, but he finished his term and a a new government was elected, that is true democracy. What happens the next election if the elite and the Army do not like the results. Another Burma perhaps. But comparing Thailand and the USA is like comparing apples and oranges.

I prefer apples because they are cleaner to eat, but I think oranges contain more vitamin C per item. Why can't you compare them?

Bearing in mind that the US constitution allows the citizens to bear arms for just such an event, so that they can fight against an oppresive state, I don't think that it is such an inane question. Imagine if a group of radicals took over a city centre location and defied the government - or even a remote farmhouse in Waco, Texas...

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Am I correct in thinking that Lao / Isaan sounds a bit like Vietnamese?

Or, I suppose, does anyone else also think that they sound similar?

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Neither Issan nor Khmer are tonal languages like Thai and are very different to each other.

Issan, of course originates from Laos and Kymer from Cambodia., but remarkably the languages spoken on both of these countries today is not the same as that spoken by Thais.

As Surin woman will tell you that she speaks Khmer but not Cambodian, but many of them learn to speak a little Cambodian in border areas.

Of course if they went to live in Laos/Cambodia it wouldn't take long before they were able to speak the local dialects.

Many Issan people use a lot of Thai words in their daily conversations and if you speak Thai, you can often figure out what they are talking about.

But when I went to Roi Et recently, their Issan was so 'pure' that I hadn't the faintest idea what they were saying.

They all learn 'government Thai' when they go to school, as only Thai is spoken there and often the teachers have come from 'Thai speaking' parts of Thailand.

So they all grow up being totally bilingual - many trilingual. Only the very old folk have trouble speaking Thai.

Not bad for poor Issan folk.

A pity they can't speak better English - probably would if the teachers knew how to speak it.

I was surprised to hear that Issaan and Khmer were not tonal, but when I can't be bothered to make up a fact or statistic for myself, I use wikipedia to get one someone else made up earlier, and sure enough, Khmer is allegedly not tonal, while Lao has six tones, according to random strangers who create wikipedia web pages.

So it would be Lao that would sound a bit like Vietnamese, then?

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I think it's very foolish to try and generalise about women from a particular region.

There is good and bad everywhere and you really have to judge for yourself.

One thing to note though is that most women from Surin are ethnic Khmer, rather than ethnic Lao, and they tend to speak Khmer, not Isaan when at home or with fellow Surin family and friends.

There are some exceptions of course, and some speak Issan as as well as Khmer, and some are be from mixed backgrounds.

Am I correct in thinking that Lao / Isaan sounds a bit like Vietnamese?

Or, I suppose, does anyone else also think that they sound similar?

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Having established a quite sufficient set of bigotries and prejudices in my youth, I find no need for more.

However, what I have found is that my personal relationships do not particularly align with those prejudices, and if I were to rebuild my set of stereotypes based on the individuals that I know, I think they would be quite different.

But stereotypes often make entertaining, and it can be amusing to compare people to their stereotypes when you meet a person for whom you have one...

I don't think anyone has been offended to date - still plenty of opportunity for that - but I think some of us think you are embarking on a futile task which is unlikely to provide real benefit to anyone.

No doubt, after a while, it will attract posters full of prejudice and spleen who will feel obliged to vent to the detriment of the thread. I expect it to be closed by the moderators at the weekend...

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Why don't you post your picture and some more illicit details about yourself. Certainly that would help us more than giving you broad generalizations about women from particular provinces.

No, please don't. Illicit details should be kept to yourself, lest your wife should chance upon it and draw her own conclusions.

I have often found that the differences between individuals from any given province, race, profession or class far outweigh the differences between the groups, and stereotypes, while entertaining, do not provide a good basis for action. Notwithstanding that, sometimes a well-thought-out stereotype can help to understand why people are the way that they are, and may perhaps from time to time help us understand the actions of strangers.

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We're getting quite specific in racial profiling now, aren't we?

Still, a good set of stereotypes can save a lot of time and avoid wasted effort at the start of a relationship, so thanks for the effort

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History is bunk, as Henry Ford said.

Presumably the OP's opinion is that history, European history, and the history of Europe's relatiosnhip with Asia, and Thailand in particular, should be taught in order to reinforce the prejudices that he himself presents in the original post, and to encourage the resultant bigotry and xenophobia.

I would not be in favour of this.

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On matters of fact, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour that opened up the war in the Pacific was probably not a direct result of European action, nor was their earlier occupation of China. I put it to you that the British and Austalian action in Burma and in South East Asia, and the American action in the Pacific, may have helped SE ASian nations to avoid subjugation by an imperial Japanese regime, the benefits or otherwise of which we can merely speculate.

The answer is quite simple;

Because the chances of getting caught are low,

And the consequences if something happens are also low.

Whereas in a western country chances of getting caught are high and consequences are also high.

? Lower value of life in Thailand ?

? Less chance of children / cyclists / motorcyclists / other vulnerable people in the street ?

Or do you simply not care in the least about the risk of killing or maiming others?

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A bit like the Crash Helmet thing ...................when in Rome do as the Romans do !

And when in Sodom or Gomorrha?

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Here is another perspective -

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/drunkdriving.html

if you go on that line then planning murder is ok as long as you don't kill. So i could try to kill you and shoot at you but miss. Then i would not get any punishment because i did not kill you. Seems sensible doesn't it.

For me it does not, for you it might.. but different people different perspectives.

Not at all. If you plan to kill someone, shoot and miss - as you say - there is still a clear intent to kill - if you drink two beers instead of one and drive home your intent is to get home, not to kill. Not quite the same is it.

...

I think its fair enough to try and murder someone. You're doing it for whatever good reasons that you have, and its a positive, conscious decision. But to accidentally kill someone through careless, thoughtlessness because the safety of others is of less importance to you than a few beers; well that seems by far the worse.

In the first case, the defendant could make the point that there was no-one else that he wanted to kill, and therefore it was unlikely to happen again; whereas in the latter, the person clearly has no regard for the safety of others, and will continue to be a danger to others so long as he remains in society

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Where is pattana? Maybe their location would explain their status.

Also most schools are still open to conduct IB, AP, or IGCSE exams due to the fact that they cannot be moved (according to testing rule)-so even if the school is closed it is likely that your kid has to go to school if they have external exams.

Pattana is out at Sukhumvit 105, beyond Bangna, I thin near the border with Samutprakarn province.

It's too easy to quail in the face of adversity, and take the soft option, closing schools and giving in to terrorists, letting them dictate how we live. However, as you say, the exam boards go on regardless. People pay too much heed to the risk of major mishap, and not enough to the minor inconveniences that we surrender to.

I believe some families have moved out of the centre of town, to temporary accomodation nearer the school. Some of the school buses are not running from areas that are affected, or that pass near these areas

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I usually have no clue on what I did last night

You'll need to look that up on wikipedia as well.

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He doesn't seem to be getting a lot of sympathy. I'll know where not to come next time I do something stupid and take a kicking for it.

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What does "trying to help someone in the area" mean?

"assist the protestant" Does this mean he is with the red?

WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER! ULSTER SEZ NO!

Best not to bring religion into it!

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Another piece of sensationalist racist reporting, using race to stir up emotion and prejudice.

Foreigners have been told often enough by the Thai government, by the police, and by their own governments to stay away.

Let's hope he goes home older and wiser,

SC

Put oneself in harm's way, and one may come to harm

One has no-one to blame but oneself

EDIT: Footnote added

Thank God for Not The Nation.

The Shavers' Weekly of Bangkok.

Let us pray that in these troubled times, people, regardless of the shirt they wear whether it be red, yellow, or black and white vertical stripes, can all get behind the national rugby team when they go to India next month for the Asian Division Two championships

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Good luck to anyone leaving Thailand to other shores and let us all know how you get on.

If I decide to leave Thailand, maybe the Phillipines is an alternative for the retired.

Anyone have any input?

You'll not find the Philippines as safe, happy and free as Thailand, and they suffer a bit from armed insurrection in the outlying provinces, and occasional coups. Last time I went, my flight in was delayed several hours for an attempted coup, and I didn't get to the pub till five in the morning

Manila suffers from much worse pollution than Bangkok, and the metro / LRT - with the exception of the excellent Line 2 - is not a patch on MRT or BTS.

Language and communication problems are particularly frustrating, because people speak good English

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Carmine keeps it real and has a cool way with words. Less is more.

Marky45 knows how to get the room rocking with the opposite approach

Problem is (in my book) too many people THINK they a wit only to find they are a wit unto themsleves alone.

It makes me laugh; what more could I ask for?

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