JimGant

First and foremost, as least regarding US taxes, the only "at source" taxation I know of is for payments to non resident aliens. This is a final tax, with a fixed rate, which would make no sense for a US taxpayer, subject to a graduated tax scale. Thus, forget the "at source" stuff -- the US taxpayer figures out his taxable income via 1099 reports or from a spreadsheet, where sales proceeds minus basis, arrives at a taxable gain. At any rate, he files a tax return with this information. Let's use my IRA annual payment (called a Required Minimum Distribution - RMD) as one example source of income. Per the DTA, if I remit this income to Thailand, Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on this income, and the US secondary rights, per the saving clause in the DTA. This will only show up on a Thai tax return -- if I so declare, as they won't know what part of my cash flow into Thailand from my bank account is assessable income. And Thai RD has no way of knowing whether or not I paid US taxes on this income, nor, probably what the DTA says about this income, i.e., whether or not it gets a US tax credit against it -- or whether the US gets a Thai tax credit against it. Again, it is my self-assessment in reporting this. And, per the DTA, with Thailand having exclusive taxation rights, I declare the whole amount as assessable income, i.e., not offset by a US tax credit. This is probably all, or most, transparent to Thai RD, who maybe has no interest in or knowledge of any related DTA. Or, maybe I just take Sherring's advice, and don't even declare this on a Thai tax return, since according to Sherring, as it's taxed by the home country, double taxation is avoided by just not paying Thai taxes on it (a spreadsheet would show US tax credits completely wipe out any Thai taxation). But, if I follow the DTA treaty rules, I pay Thailand full fare taxes on this RMD, and take the Thai taxes as a credit against my US taxes. Again, this is all done with information I collect. Thailand doesn't send any information to the IRS. And they're completely oblivious to the fact that their taxes are being used as a tax credit on a US tax return. Why would they care -- it doesn't affect the taxes they collect.. Oh, I could even figure out what my Thai taxes would be on this RMD, long before I even file a Thai tax return, via a little spreadsheet work. Nothing official need be provided the US on this Thai tax credit. I just plug the numbers into Form 1116 -- and realize a one for one offset in my US tax bill, i.e., no extra taxes paid anyone in this scenario. But, the DTA rules are at least followed in this scenario. Anyway, Sherring doesn't agree. But here's a better take on tax credits: https://www.cpasforexpats.com/post/us-thailand-tax-treaty

You're absolutely correct. The tax treaty prohibits double taxation. Do a little research, and relax.

Ok, per my entry, and in your opinion -- is Sherrings, as presumably a rep of RD, correct that tax credits will only be one-way, i.e., from home country to Thailand? If you agree with that, does that make any sense in light of what a DTA grants Thailand in taxation exclusivity? Just curious.

It may seem like baloney from a DTA perspective but that is what the RD confirmed in the Sherrings Q&A, Q15 below https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html You know for a fact this is what RD confirmed to Sherrings? You're in contact with them? If true, this says Thailand will forego a lot of tax collection from income the DTAs say is theirs exclusively. Why? Because Sherrings is saying tax credits will only go one way -- from home country taxation to Thailand taxation; meaning, the home country gets to keep all taxation, since they have no credits to absorb. But Thailand gets to keep only taxes left after netting out the home country credits. Only where home country taxes are slight, or even nil -- will Thailand get some tax collections in their coffers ('cause there would be no, or slight, home country credits -- per the Sherring report -- against Thai taxation). For countries like the US, where taxation on income remitted to Thailand will probably exceed what the Thai taxation would be on same -- Thailand collects zip -- even tho' the DTA says they have exclusive taxation rights. So, for Thailand to get what the DTA says they deserve, the credit granting needs to be reversed: Thailand gets first taxation rights on the income stipulated by the DTA; as such, they get to keep every satang of that tax collection; and the home country has to absorb a tax credit for the taxes paid to Thailand. For most taxpayers, this will just mean less taxes paid to home country, more to Thailand -- but totaling up the same. No net difference financially -- just more paperwork involved, what with having to file a Thai tax return. But, per Sherring (who hopefully is in the know with Thai RD), Thailand is not interested in collecting taxes they're due via a DTA. Instead, just allow the home country to keep all taxes, and issue a credit against any Thai taxes. There, Double Taxation Question solved. Ridiculous. [But easy to fix, so we probably haven't heard the end of this Again, same total tax bill, but now with country A getting more, and country B getting less -- per the DTA.]

You'd be better off with a credit card, which, I guess, is harder for some to get than a debit card.... Some credit card issuers, like Capital One, have virtual credit cards that use throwaway credit card info (tied to your actual account, of course) for online purchases. Nice safety feature. Plus, of course, fraud won't clean out, nor even touch, your bank account. Getting a credit for a fraudulent purchase is faster and more efficient than trying to reload your bank account. Then, most credit cards have cash back credits -- and the credit card companies have better guarantee policies, as far as I know. Anyway, I'm preaching to the choir. If you have the option of a credit card over a debit card -- you're already there.

Since they're not made by Boeing, the doors and panels shouldn't fall off. Excellent replacement for the light attack OV-10s that Wing 41 retired many years ago.

Under FATCA, banks are only required to report on "US persons" with $50,000 or more in their account(s) at the end of the year. Thus, I would say, very few "US persons" are being reported to Treasury Dept. And now with CRS coming to Thailand, Thai banks will no longer just have FATCA to curse for burdensome reporting requirements.

No, they're wrong. Foreign sourced income earned in 2023, and remitted to Thailand in 2023, are assessable. Had you waited until this year, or later, to remit, then, yes, it would then not be assessable.

Please refresh my memory. When was this, and what dire consequences happened?

Here's the problem. This is a quote from you, from the Swiss post that was taken down. In the beginning, we heard, "If you have a DTA, and you pay home country taxes, you won't owe taxes in Thailand." This seemed to be the RD way of not having to deal with the specifics of individual DTAs, but just avoid double taxation by acknowledging that you paid taxes to your home country. End of discussion. No need to file a Thai tax return. And this may be the way it will be going forward -- wave a home country tax return (regardless of how much paid, if any, in home country taxes) in the faces of Thai RD, and thus have no Thai tax obligation. But this is absurd, if Thailand really wants to utilize all their DTAs to collect taxes that they have primary taxation authority over. Using my 401a as an example. Thailand, per DTA, has primary taxation authority on my remitted 401a. Thus, they get to keep every baht of taxes collected from this income -- it is NOT offset by any tax credit from my US taxes -- but the US does have to accept a tax credit from Thailand. So, even if the Thai taxes owed on this income is, say, $100 -- and the taxes on the same income paid to the US is $500 -- Thailand at least gets to keep $100 in taxes -- and the US only nets $400 in taxes, after subtracting out the Thai tax credit of $100. For me, the US taxpayer, my total tax bill between the two countries is still $500. So, no big deal that Thailand is finally utilizing the provisions of the DTA. But a big deal for them, if they don't...... Bottom line: I don't understand why Thailand would just say, always use your home country's taxes as a tax credit against Thai taxes -- and, in most cases, don't owe anything to Thailand. Why not use their primary taxation authority to issue, not accept, tax credits -- and at least collect the taxes they're owed? And, for Yanks, this would have little, if any affect, on the total tax bill between countries. Anyway, I'm sure we'll hear more about the affects of DTAs on future Thai tax matters. If not, the Thais will be losing out on tax revenues -- when it wouldn't take much to just clarify how self-assessment vis-a-via one's DTA with Thailand should apply.

Out of curiosity, why do you need a 1099? I guess if you're not getting any mail, you didn't get the "here are your new benefits" letter from the SSA at the beginning of the year (which has all the same info as a 1099). But, if you have no withholding, you certainly can figure out what the SSA paid you in 2023, by looking at your bank statement where your SS check is deposited... Anyway, no 1099s need be filed with electronic filing; and hardcopy by mail filing only requires a 1099 if there is withholding tax involved.

If somehow all the money you wire to Thailand can strictly be identified as dividends and interest -- paid after Jan 1, 2024 -- then, yes, Thailand has first taxation dibs. But whatever Thai taxes you pay can be used as a tax credit against your US taxes (per the DTA rules and Form 8833 rules). [US gets to tax it due to the saving clause, which allows taxation of virtually all worldwide income, regardless of what any DTA says.] But are you filtering these dividends and interest through a bank account that existed pre 2024? And if so, the balance that existed Dec 31, 2023 is your forever never assessable amount of money that can be remitted to Thailand. This, too, for your IRA balance on 31 Dec, as this was also income paid pre 31 Dec -- that it was tax deferred doesn't enter into the equation for remitted money to Thailand. We're not really playing fast and lose with the fungibility of money concept. Accounting rules like FIFO and LIFO don't apply to remittances, but to inventories. So the co-mingling of pre and post 2024 monies in a bank account aren't addressed in worldwide accounting concepts when it comes to remittances. And Thailand probably won't become a unique player in defining which end of the money pot remittances come from first. So, for now, you're on solid ground to self-designate that your wire remittances to Thailand are FIFO. Hey, you take advantage of every angle that doesn't bend any existing rule. Besides, the chance that Thai RD will want to discuss any of this with you is practically nil -- and if they do, you're on solid ground. So, what was your financial bottom line on 31 Dec 2023? Consider this amount as completely exempt from any future Thai taxes, to be added to any amounts, like gov't pensions and social security, also exempt, per DTA.

Remember this nugget, from page one of the 232 treatise on the new tax: The OP is paying US tax on this income in question. Early in the game, per the above quote, it appeared Thai RD didn't want to waste resources by fine toothing every DTA on which country gets primary taxing authority, then has to issue a credit, blah blah. Instead, if you can wave a DTA and a tax return from home country at RD, then, no taxes owed to Thailand. Simple, sensible approach. Haven't heard anything more on whether or not this approach is still viable -- or never was ever viable. But, obviously, a question whose answer would help the OP -- and would certainly put to rest questions by others paying home country taxes and wondering about having to file a Thai tax return. Maybe we haven't heard more about this because it was too simplistic in the early goings-on of this new tax drill..... But, a reaffirmation sure would go a long ways, particularly for Yanks, who normally always file a tax return, even if no taxes owed due to standard deduction being greater than gross income.

The question of co-mingled funds being parsed between savings and assessable income is a reoccurring question here. But, I really don't think you'll be grilled by RD on this. And with adequate records, like sending your social security to Thailand in the exact amount received in your US bank, would be nice, but probably overkill. That you can keep adequate records that remitted amounts fall into the non assessable category, either by virtue of DTA or being from a pre 2024 bank account, should cover your six. But, again, just be comfortable with your self-assessment; the chance of being audited by RD, for either not filing, or for filing a questionable return, is virtually nil, as they don't have, and will not have, the manpower to conduct audits where the cost/benefit analysis is a joke.

Am I the only one confused here?

Thanks, Sheryl, for that question. Its answer will, hopefully, stop my head scratching as to the OP's real question....

Just to put US retirees at ease, if the DTA says Thailand has first/exclusive taxation rights on US income remitted to Thailand, then you have an "out" to the Tax Code, where it says credits are only against taxes paid on Thai income. Nope. If that remitted income is subject to the DTA, for the purposes of eliminating double taxation, then that US income taxed by Thailand will be treated as if it were Thai, not US, income. Thus, any credits banked (under Form 1116) are applicable to future US remitted income, since such remittances are treated the same as Thai income. Form 8833 applies, which points out how the DTA trumps the US Tax Code.

Depends on the bank, I guess. My banks' credit cards, Cap One, BofAmerica, and USAA, charge no fees; use the network (Visa) FX rate, which approximates the excellent Interbank Exchange Rate (what WISE gives); and give me a 1.5% reward credit. Can't beat that (well, USAA used to be 2.5%). Years ago on this forum DCC was discussed heavily, pointing out which merchants automatically used it (while the networks, visa, mc, require the merchant to divulge whether DCC was being used, or not). And the added cost, around 3%, can add up (with both the merchant and the bank, who defines the FX rate to reach a profitable spread from what he pays Visa, splitting the profit). We got to the point, with Home Pro, that we had to tell the checkout gal to hit "button 2", as "button 1" was the DCC rate. Haven't used Home Pro in awhile, but recently Bangkok Hospital has, on several occasions, asked, "Dollars or baht?" They'd even print out, at request, a comparison of the two rates -- and 3% seems to still be the rip off rate. (Oh, baht is the correct answer.) Don't know if DCC has entered the QR world yet, as I refuse to learn how to pay for something on my phone, while trying to see tiny numbers and keys -- while my plastic credit card is still very functional, thank you very much. (Had to get that rant in -- new technology isn't all that swell for old farts.)

Bingo! A little common sense would show that all arriving monies will be considered "income," and maybe have withholding taxes -- is completely bonkers. You think the Thais are stupid enough to shoot FDI in the foot (rhetorical question). Or that banks will now be surrogate RD agents to address all incoming wires......... And I thought the Swiss were keen on financial matters......

Another cavalier comment. By the way, what's your nationality? I've kind of got it narrowed down....

Lemme see. If I had the choice between an attractive, soft, curvy, nice smelling creature -- and a hairy, booze breathed neanderthal-like body -- what would I do?

Excellent point. If Thai taxes exceed US taxes, then, yes, your total tax bill will equate to the higher of whichever country's tax bill is higher. Here's the language from the DTA: This is unclear as to which country has "primary" taxation authority. But it doesn't matter when it comes to your total tax bill. If my US cap gain tax is $1000, and my Thai tax is $1200, if I have to pay full fare to the US, but give that $1000 as a credit against the Thai tax bill of $1200 -- then I end up paying the US $1000, and Thailand $200. Total bill: $1200. Reverse that, paying Thailand full fare of $1200, but using $1000 of that as a credit to cancel out my US tax bill -- again, total bill between the two countries is $1200. But, point well taken -- Yanks may now have situations where having to file Thai taxes makes total tax bill between both countries higher than just paying US taxes.

Prayuth wasn't all that bad. Granted, many won't forgive his illegitimate rise to power. So be it. But his intentions were honorable; so too his hard work; and his legacy will probably be deemed "very acceptable", except Covid's curse prevented many of his good intentions from flowering. Good news and good reports are nice to hear; sadly, we have to suffer the naysayers . Thailand's certainly on the mend, but many miles to go. Sadly, we can't have a parallel gov't, like that of Yingluck, to match performances, and good intentions, with that of Prayut. I think many critics of Prayuth's governing would then be forced to shut up.

I can just see me in the drive thru, with the clerk scratching his head and calling higher authority -- while ten cars behind me are warming up their horns... I've got a few months to decide about Star Visa. They're a lot closer to me than Imm, plus no parking problem or streets to cross. Beside, hey, I'm a Wealthy Pensioner -- why worry about 1000 baht 😉

Not true for the US-Thai tax treaty. Yes, gov't pensions and social security are specifically restricted to taxation only by the paying country. However, private pensions, annuities, and IRAs *are* mentioned as being exclusively taxable by country of residence, i.e., Thailand. (But the US still maintains taxation rights on these payments, per the "saving clause.") But, yes, other DTAs are less specific. The UK one makes no mention of private pensions