JimGant

Not certain of the context for this statement, but the KBank request for info only requires a Thai TIN -- if you have "Thai taxable income," meaning if income subject to Thai taxation (i.e., assessable income) exceeds deductions, exemptions, and the 150k freebie. If not, you leave that request -- on page one of KBank request -- blank. Then explain why you left it blank on page two. If a US citizen, you're asked to provide Form W9 -- which will provide your US SSN, which equates to a TIN.

As it says on page one of the KBank request for info -- no Thai TIN required -- if you have no Thai taxable income, i.e., no taxes owed, 'cause your assessable income is less than deductions, exemptions, and the 150k freebie. So, why waste your time -- and possible frustration from being denied a TIN (as recorded many times on this forum) because you have no taxable income. Or, worse, pay an agent 7-12k baht to get you that unnecessary TIN. If you want (don't believe it's required), in the comment section of KBank's page two -- you could mention "Left Thai TIN block blank due to no taxable income."

Yes. And, again -- fungibilty -- requires you to go to an accounting system that can't rely on cost and sales price of specific lots -- 'cause you ain't got any specific lots or tranches.

Don't tell them anything. Just keep good notes about how much of that 12/31/2023 balance was subsequently remitted.

Read the BP on fungible accounts. Say your account in question had $100k on 12/31/2023; and in 2024 this account has a reinvested interest amount of $5k. Under FIFO -- your option to use -- that $5k is not assessable until the entire amount of $100k has been remitted to Thailand, which maybe would be several years away. Then that 2024 reinvested interest -- and any since -- would be assessable if remitted to Thailand.

No, not assessable -- at least initially. Whatever your account balance was on 31 Dec 2023 -- this is all non assessable, until this amount has been totally remitted. Then, yes, reinvested interest now becomes assessable. Why? Because of the fungibility of money, i.e., no specificity of individual lots possible. Thus, you're allowed to use FIFO (first in, first out), which, of course, means everything before that post 2023 interest. See this article from a 2012 Bangkok Post:

Thank you very much. I really appreciate that.....

Sadly, there's nothing in Thai related DTAs, at least the US-Thai DTA, that addresses this situation. Here's how this was gotten around in the UK-US DTA, as regards a tax exempt Roth distribution:

Never mentioned the 60/120/220 thresholds for mandatory filing -- that's irrelevant to what's actually taxable income. And what I was responding to was the page one of the KBank request for information, where it says you're only required to have a Thai TIN *IF* you have "taxable income." Thus, my defining of taxable income is: what's left after subtracting out TEDA. So, in my case, with a TEDA of 560k -- I have no taxable income until my assessable income exceeds 560k -- and no need to get a TIN if I have no taxable income.

So, they're going to check every return for math errors and correct assumptions? What ever happened to the advertised self-assessment principal? By the way, taxable income is literally income upon which some tax is owed. Thus, you would necessarily have to factor in the freebie tax band to arrive at taxable income -- that 150k tax band functions as just another deduction.

Sounds like what happened with the implementation of FATCA, when banks had to have new customers ascertain whether or not they were Yanks. This was back in 2015, and the banks were supposed to then go back to pre-2015 customers and get their bonafides. This was not an option -- Thailand had entered into an agreement, and thus their banks had to fall in line. I don't know if the banks had to survey all farangs, or just those with indications of being a Yank (you know, handsome, good teeth, large bank account). I had had a Bangkok Bank account from well before 2015 -- and never got a survey (maybe that missing front tooth). Or, maybe because I hadn't updated my new email address..... Anyway, this new survey going on -- obviously at the behest of the Thai govt, not just KBank -- is due to the recent signing on by Thailand with CRS. That they're rolling up FATCA folks too might mean they were told to complete some unfinished business. Dunno. Maybe I should expect an email soon from Bangkok Bank, tho I still haven't updated my email address. No matter -- and no big deal -- unless your international financial data is suspect....

Actually, the only place I can see, where they ask you to enter your Thai TIN, is the first paragraph on page one, right under where they ask for your passport number. Here they say: Thai TIN mandatory, if you have Thai taxable income (and thus must file a Thai tax return). For me, having Thai taxable income would be if my assessable income exceeded my TEDA of 560k baht. Since my assessable income is well below this number, I don't have a need to file, and thus no TIN (even tho' the shyster accounting firms say I need one, 'cause my assessable income exceeds 60k). Anyway, I'd explain this lack of TIN in the comment section on page 2. As a Yank, this form is for the purposes of satisfying FATCA reporting requirements -- and I would thus have to file a form W9 (included in the package). This form would have my Social Security number, which is all the US is interested in for identification -- not a Thai TIN.

Agree one hundred percent. But, why the new conclusion -- this gift exemption from income taxes has been in limbo for ages...... Some new information -- or just enlightenment.? Anyway, common sense (that annoying tie breaker term) says: No difference, if assessable income is sent to Thailand, and the receiver is: 1. My bank account. 2. My wife's bank account. 3. My GF's bank account.4. Real estate agency, for purchase of new condo. 5. Society for the saving of soi dogs. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it might be a gift -- but that's irrelevant to source of remittance -- and related tax bill. This subject attracts a lot of energy. And the logical answer annoys a lot of folks looking for an angle. But, hey, go ahead and believe you see a grey area -- and file your tax return accordingly. Probably will get away with it -- and if you really see a grey area, you can sleep comfortably, believing you're not a tax evader -- should you have any morals regarding taxes.

The forms to be filled in require providing both my Belgian tax number and a Thai Internal Revenue TIN-number. Actually, if you can't provide a Thai TIN, you can explain this in the comment section of page 2. And, since -- as they point out in red at the very top of the form -- that you only need a Thai TIN, if you have taxable income (and, by extension, must pay Thai taxes, and thus file a return) -- then, if this is the case for you, i.e., you had no taxable income, 'cause your deductions and exemptions exceeded your assessable income -- no requirement to get a Thai TIN. Anyway, don't waste your time getting a TIN, if no taxable income, and thus no requirement to get one. Explain this in the comment section. And, no harm, no foul.

Thanx for the input. Seems, maybe, TRD is fishing for null tax returns,,,,,,, Can anyone suggest why?

Hey, you got me on the literal reading of the code. -- it's there for all to ponder and cast amazing glances towards. My argument has been, like so many not-well-thought-out laws about many things -- folks who can analyze matters, and who can think, move on, away from ludicrous legal decrees -- and often these decrees disappear in the quiet of the night. My contention -- having to file when no taxes are due -- fits in this category of ludicrous decrees. But, we'll see. Maybe TRD wants to look at 1000 dead trees of null tax returns, with no payment -- not that there would be anything there to suggest that certain income was not reported. Thus, I cannot imagine their continuing quest for null returns......which leads me to believe, that smarter folks at TRD, will come to more pragmatic conclusions. Anyway, cheers. Your input has been invaluable to the reader -- as I hope has been mine, and many others. More discussion to come on this -- some kind of a US Podcast on this on 28 Nov? No conclusions really possible at this juncture.

Ok. Probably time to stop the dialogue. The reader has enough input to decide for himself whether or not to get a TIN, if assessable income exceeds 60/120/220k -- and to prepare to file, if exceeding those markers. Some say filing is easy. I dunno. First glance at the English version of tax return looks fairly complex -- but, probably not, Plus, you -- doing the self-assessment -- can plug in the numbers with impunity -- and no math errors will show, unlike with US returns, where algorithms are bouncing off all the 1099 and W2 numbers against yours. So, can you do a return with no stress on yourself? Or, will you need to pay someone to do it? Or, can you just conclude, with no taxes owed, that by just not filing a return, you will not be in any jeopardy? I believe all sides of this have provided enough information for the cognizant reader to make a decision. I'm sure TRD will have more to say about this somewhere down the road -- particularly if swamped by null tax returns. We'll just have to wait and see.

Well, don't be pedantic. I won't research other Western tax rules, but using the US tax return example, Taxable Income (TI) seems to be universal tax language for gross income, less deductions, is equal to income subject to taxation. Period. Of course, there could be some translation problems with the Thai. But, I don't think so. KBank knew what they were about.

Well, of course. This goes along with all the reports from folks turned away from TRD offices, who couldn't get a TIN, because they didn't have a tax obligation. KBank is obviously one of those organizations -- vetted and licensed by the Thai govt -- that has a grasp on reality: NO NEED FOR A TIN, IF NO TAXABLE INCOME, AND THUS NO TAXES OWED. Thus, with my TEDA of 560k, only after I remit 561k of assessable income would I have a tax filing obligation, 'cause I owe taxes -- and thus would need a TIN. Otherwise, why? (Thank you KBank for restoring my faith that Thailand has some logical thinkers.) Yes, we've all heard the cry, particularly from shyster accounting firms (but also from the righteous on this forum), that you need to come in, pay 12000 baht, and get a TIN -- or else you're in trouble if you remit 60k in assessable income. Hogwash. My near minimum wage gardener makes 125k -- and like the other 99% of manual laborers, earning near minimum wage -- isn't about to file a tax return, not they he could on his own, nor could he afford to hire someone to file. No, KBank, among many others, realizes that some regulations suck, and thus need to be ignored -- particularly when there's no realistic risk -- and when there's a definite cost to the govt to process null returns, with no checks to pay for such processing. Once again, this argument, which will never be solved with our current info from TRD, comes down to common sense.

Never done an online tax filing, so I could be wrong on this. But, isn't it the same as plunking numbers down into an Excel spreadsheet? You have to determine what those numbers are -- there's no TurboTax-like software system to keep you on the straight and narrow. If so, certainly a long cry from a human assessment officer looking over your shoulder, as the cyclist maintains. No, TRD says self-assessment is the way things are done. Thus, you have to do all your income assessment considerations, and what TEDA numbers are applicable, and what your tax bill ends up to be. Nobody there to double check. Now, assessment officers are mentioned as getting involved, when somewhere down the road your return is flagged for irregularities. Makes sense -- but not up front, in the self-assessment phase.

Wow, hurts to be caught in a screw up, hey? Your words: I know the answer -- no assessment officer involvement -- no way possible -- in my online tax filing, if and when I have taxable income. You're the one who said assessment officers , not individuals, have to call the shots-- and you're completely wrong. At least you can be man enough to admit your mistake....

They wouldn't. Your point?

Can't answer the question, then.... You're the one that implied assessment officers need to go to bed with you, before you can file a tax return. I just pointed out that that's bananas.

Yeah, but you didn't say whether or not TRD is happy with all that paper, with no checks attached. Probably as we speak, they're rewriting the law. Or not -- make work ploys save jobs, especially those of bureaucrats. I've only suggested TEDA be brought into the picture to see if you owe taxes -- and if so, then to avoid tax evasion you need to file. But, if you've only got 60k in assessable income, forget TEDA, as you have no tax liability. But the rules say you should file. That the rules suck, and need to be dealt with appropriately, is the cruz of this discussion -- not TEDA and need to file if taxes owed.

How, then, do I file online, if I have to meet up with an assessment officer? Makes no sense. This really would put a roadblock to those who want to follow the rules and file a tax return, even if no taxes owed.