JimGant

The forms to be filled in require providing both my Belgian tax number and a Thai Internal Revenue TIN-number. Actually, if you can't provide a Thai TIN, you can explain this in the comment section of page 2. And, since -- as they point out in red at the very top of the form -- that you only need a Thai TIN, if you have taxable income (and, by extension, must pay Thai taxes, and thus file a return) -- then, if this is the case for you, i.e., you had no taxable income, 'cause your deductions and exemptions exceeded your assessable income -- no requirement to get a Thai TIN. Anyway, don't waste your time getting a TIN, if no taxable income, and thus no requirement to get one. Explain this in the comment section. And, no harm, no foul.

Thanx for the input. Seems, maybe, TRD is fishing for null tax returns,,,,,,, Can anyone suggest why?

Hey, you got me on the literal reading of the code. -- it's there for all to ponder and cast amazing glances towards. My argument has been, like so many not-well-thought-out laws about many things -- folks who can analyze matters, and who can think, move on, away from ludicrous legal decrees -- and often these decrees disappear in the quiet of the night. My contention -- having to file when no taxes are due -- fits in this category of ludicrous decrees. But, we'll see. Maybe TRD wants to look at 1000 dead trees of null tax returns, with no payment -- not that there would be anything there to suggest that certain income was not reported. Thus, I cannot imagine their continuing quest for null returns......which leads me to believe, that smarter folks at TRD, will come to more pragmatic conclusions. Anyway, cheers. Your input has been invaluable to the reader -- as I hope has been mine, and many others. More discussion to come on this -- some kind of a US Podcast on this on 28 Nov? No conclusions really possible at this juncture.

Ok. Probably time to stop the dialogue. The reader has enough input to decide for himself whether or not to get a TIN, if assessable income exceeds 60/120/220k -- and to prepare to file, if exceeding those markers. Some say filing is easy. I dunno. First glance at the English version of tax return looks fairly complex -- but, probably not, Plus, you -- doing the self-assessment -- can plug in the numbers with impunity -- and no math errors will show, unlike with US returns, where algorithms are bouncing off all the 1099 and W2 numbers against yours. So, can you do a return with no stress on yourself? Or, will you need to pay someone to do it? Or, can you just conclude, with no taxes owed, that by just not filing a return, you will not be in any jeopardy? I believe all sides of this have provided enough information for the cognizant reader to make a decision. I'm sure TRD will have more to say about this somewhere down the road -- particularly if swamped by null tax returns. We'll just have to wait and see.

Well, don't be pedantic. I won't research other Western tax rules, but using the US tax return example, Taxable Income (TI) seems to be universal tax language for gross income, less deductions, is equal to income subject to taxation. Period. Of course, there could be some translation problems with the Thai. But, I don't think so. KBank knew what they were about.

Well, of course. This goes along with all the reports from folks turned away from TRD offices, who couldn't get a TIN, because they didn't have a tax obligation. KBank is obviously one of those organizations -- vetted and licensed by the Thai govt -- that has a grasp on reality: NO NEED FOR A TIN, IF NO TAXABLE INCOME, AND THUS NO TAXES OWED. Thus, with my TEDA of 560k, only after I remit 561k of assessable income would I have a tax filing obligation, 'cause I owe taxes -- and thus would need a TIN. Otherwise, why? (Thank you KBank for restoring my faith that Thailand has some logical thinkers.) Yes, we've all heard the cry, particularly from shyster accounting firms (but also from the righteous on this forum), that you need to come in, pay 12000 baht, and get a TIN -- or else you're in trouble if you remit 60k in assessable income. Hogwash. My near minimum wage gardener makes 125k -- and like the other 99% of manual laborers, earning near minimum wage -- isn't about to file a tax return, not they he could on his own, nor could he afford to hire someone to file. No, KBank, among many others, realizes that some regulations suck, and thus need to be ignored -- particularly when there's no realistic risk -- and when there's a definite cost to the govt to process null returns, with no checks to pay for such processing. Once again, this argument, which will never be solved with our current info from TRD, comes down to common sense.

Never done an online tax filing, so I could be wrong on this. But, isn't it the same as plunking numbers down into an Excel spreadsheet? You have to determine what those numbers are -- there's no TurboTax-like software system to keep you on the straight and narrow. If so, certainly a long cry from a human assessment officer looking over your shoulder, as the cyclist maintains. No, TRD says self-assessment is the way things are done. Thus, you have to do all your income assessment considerations, and what TEDA numbers are applicable, and what your tax bill ends up to be. Nobody there to double check. Now, assessment officers are mentioned as getting involved, when somewhere down the road your return is flagged for irregularities. Makes sense -- but not up front, in the self-assessment phase.

Wow, hurts to be caught in a screw up, hey? Your words: I know the answer -- no assessment officer involvement -- no way possible -- in my online tax filing, if and when I have taxable income. You're the one who said assessment officers , not individuals, have to call the shots-- and you're completely wrong. At least you can be man enough to admit your mistake....

They wouldn't. Your point?

Can't answer the question, then.... You're the one that implied assessment officers need to go to bed with you, before you can file a tax return. I just pointed out that that's bananas.

Yeah, but you didn't say whether or not TRD is happy with all that paper, with no checks attached. Probably as we speak, they're rewriting the law. Or not -- make work ploys save jobs, especially those of bureaucrats. I've only suggested TEDA be brought into the picture to see if you owe taxes -- and if so, then to avoid tax evasion you need to file. But, if you've only got 60k in assessable income, forget TEDA, as you have no tax liability. But the rules say you should file. That the rules suck, and need to be dealt with appropriately, is the cruz of this discussion -- not TEDA and need to file if taxes owed.

How, then, do I file online, if I have to meet up with an assessment officer? Makes no sense. This really would put a roadblock to those who want to follow the rules and file a tax return, even if no taxes owed.

A little confused here. Let me insert this: So, under the self-assessment system, it's up to me to fill in the numbers on the tax return; figure out my TEDA; bounce that against my total assessable income; and then pay any tax owed, or request a refund of overwithheld taxes, if applicable. Where does an Assessment Officer enter this picture -- especially if I'm filing online?

Right. So for sure, if you owe taxes, get a TIN and file a return. Common sense, when analyzed against a sensical law against tax evasion -- and some appropriate penalties. But, owe no taxes -- you're free to analyze against a nonsensical law, whose penalty is paltry (and never seen applied). Then decide to file, or not. Not really a brain teaser -- unless we see further guidance about TRD getting serious about seeing null tax returns. Anyway, I'm sure most reading this are getting tired of the same old arguments. I know I am.

A stupid response! Yumthai, don't waste your energy, 'cause you're talking to a guy who drives the fast lane at exactly the speed limit, or maybe a little less -- and has twenty cars tailgating, driven by rational citizens, honking and flipping him off. Takes all kinds.

Sigh. So my observations and recommendations are being read by folks who can't think for themselves? I guess you don't think too highly of the readership. I'm sure your broken record of quoting the law has resonated with many, after contemplating alternatives. That's good, if that's what they feel comfortable with. But, I kind of look at this as akin to contemplating the risk of going 10 mph over the speed limit, and thus getting to your destination quicker. Most of us do this automatically, and go with the flow in the fast lane. Now and then, however, you get stuck behind some do gooder going the exact speed limit -- in the fast lane. And what's worse, is that he's proud of it. Barf.

Wow, wouldn't this thread be a drag, if all we had to listen to is you.

Of course there's a calculation to see if tax is due or not -- just subtract TEDA from your assessable income. Duh. Do this on the back of an envelope. If no taxes due -- decide if you should file, if assessable income exceeds 60k baht. Since if you don't file, and there's no way they'll know that you should have -- or, if magically they somehow know, and the fine is 2000 baht (never experienced) -- big f***** deal. And, forget the big scare someone interjected here awhile back, about 10 years of back audits -- because if there's no tax evasion in current year under question, do you think they'll waste resources for 10 years' of audits? Duh. No, for goodness sakes, if you think somehow your remitted assessable income exceeds TEDA -- and thus you owe taxes and should file a return -- of course, do it. If you're mathematically challenged, hire an accounting firm. But if you do know your math, and you do know you don't owe any taxes -- opt to do nothing -- instead of filing and getting a TIN, and now becoming part of the TRD's data base. And knowing there's little chance of any repercussions. Sounds like an easy choice, if you're good at analyzing odds.

...based on what data trail? They're somehow going to figure that some of your remitted income, that wasn't assessable income -- and which you didn't declare -- was ACTUALLY assessable income? These folks aren't clairvoyant.... No, unless there's a huge remittance that doesn't show up on a tax return, will they be curious enough to invite you in to explain assessable vs non assessable income. And, based on logic and TRD cost/benefit algorithms -- I doubt this number would be less than 3 million baht (and probably more). What in the world are you about? Of course we can calculate whether tax is due or not. This whole drill is based on self-assessment. I certainly can determine what remitted income is assessable. And, after deducting TEDA, do I have taxable income. Thus, certainly there is a rule -- the tax code -- that determines whether or not I owe taxes. This can all be done on your Excel spreadsheet. If I owe taxes, then, yeah, for sure I file a Thai tax return -- otherwise, I'm evading taxes. But, if no taxes owed (but my assessable income exceeds those 60/120/220k markers), then I have to decide whether to take the time, or not, to file; and the risk if I don't file. And, the risk, as far as I can see -- is minimum to naught. But, hey, this is an individual judgement call -- with no right answer.

Oh, BS. Another scare tactic that says you're too stupid to do a back-of-the-envelope to see if you're even close, or not, to having any taxable income (assessabe income minus TEDA), thus needing to file, 'lest you be branded a tax evader. Otherwise, sit back and have a beer. But for heaven's sake, don't fall for this 'come in for a free 15 minute assessment.' You just know where that's going to go. Nope. Most reading this can determine whether or not they're in a Thai tax filing situation. Just ignore these grifters out there with a hook.

Here forward. let it be known, that all tax advice given on this forum .. is INFORMAL.

Makes no difference, from the Thai taxation perspective. US Social Security payments made to anybody are exclusively taxable only by the US-- regardless of citizenship or residency. Thailand need not know about any such payments, to include payments to their resident citizens, since they have no taxation authority over them, at least per DTA: This quote, from the technical explanation, points out that govt pensions paid for govt service -- are exclusively taxable ONLY by the US -- UNLESS the recipient is a Thai citizen residing in Thailand. BUT, Social Security payments don't fall under this exception -- and remain the exclusive domain of US regardless of citizenship and resident of payee. This is handy news for those of us married to dual US-Thai citizens -- as neither my wife's Social Security, nor her Air Force survivor pension, will be taxable by Thailand. And, for you as a Brit, receiving a US SS payment, even if remitted to Thailand -- is not required to be listed as assessable income on your Thai tax return. BUT ,BUT, BUT -- this is, of course, only one man's opinion. Horror, if considered tax advice.

That's curious. Could you elaborate? Thanx.

It means you don't owe any taxes per the LTR decree. I'm in the same boat. The "file a return, even if no tax owed, if your assessable income exceeds 60000 baht" is a peculiar anomaly in Thai tax law. It's been mentioned that there's a 2000 baht fine for ignoring this rule (big deal). Fact: No reported incidents of this. And someone on this forum scaremongered that you might be subject to a back 10 year audit; ludicrous, because such long term audits are only for folks who, up front, didn't file with the INTENT TO TAX EVADE. That ain't you. So, relax. And, for Christ's sake, don't go to your local TRD office for advice on LTR visas. Very few there are knowledgeable on LTR visa related info -- and for sure, probably none on the assessable/exempt tax question. I had to hire an agent to do my one-year LTR report, as they'd never heard of it. So, relax. No reason to call you in for an audit, unless you're remitting millions of baht. And even if they did, you're clean.

The exact wording: The OECD Model Tax treaty shorthand language, as I pointed out in a previous posting, has may be taxed to mean: Contracting country in question has primary taxation rights -- but the other country has secondary taxation rights (may ONLY be taxed gives exclusive taxation rights, thus no secondary taxation rights -- not the situation here). Thus, the UK like the US DTA, gives the UK primary taxation authority on rents, meaning, they get to keep the whole enchilada of tax collection. Thailand, however, can also tax rental income -- if remitted. However, it has to absorb a tax credit equal to the taxes paid on this rental income to the UK. So, on the back of an envelope, if you see UK tax amount (the credit) trumping the Thai taxation amount -- forget even including it on the Thai tax return (which, for now, has no place for that UK tax credit anyway).