JimGant

Well, Carden did a convincing sales job -- you give a speech with confusing treaty language, interspersed with US Tax Code confusing lingo -- and with a "just pay me $500, and save $5000 on taxes" -- what's not to like? And he even sold the 'file 3 years of amended returns' to get back all those taxes on previous IRA distributions. Christ, why not? What could go wrong? You either didn't get the IRS on-board ('cause the average IRS agent wasn't versed in treaty language) -- or if they saw it was a sham, you'd only be out the tax you rightfully owed, plus interest. Thomas Carden would face other charges -- but, I'm sure, he could tap dance a, "gee, this is how the treaty language appeared to me, blah blah." Anyway, many Yanks have saved on taxes on their IRAs, per Carden's ploy -- and have probably gotten away with it. Not surprisingly, none would share their Form 8833 with me -- the form Carden has to provide the IRS, in support of his treaty argument. Looks like your game is over, Thomas. So solly.

Yep. He "interpreted" (misrepresented for profit is a better descriptor) the Thai-US DTA's "saving clause" as NOT being applicable to remitted IRA proceeds -- making Thailand the only country where US persons, being tax residents of Thailand, did not have to declare their IRA income on their US tax return -- because the DTA gave Thailand "exclusive taxation rights" on IRAs. And not having to pay Thai taxes, 'cause of the "not remitted in year earned" rule. Result: Pay no one any taxes on your annual IRA RMD cashout, if you spend 180 days in Thailand, and don't remit that RMD cashout until the next year. Too good to be true? Duh. And, yes, the DTA does say Thailand has "exclusive taxation rights" on private pensions and IRAs. But, the US inserts a "saving clause" into every one of its DTAs, allowing in all but a few situations (e.g, alimony, child support) US taxation authority override of DTA language. Sounds arrogant, right? But in actuality it doesn't override any of the spirit of a DTA, namely prevention of double taxation. What it does do, however, is prevent double No taxation. For example, in this case, where Thailand doesn't take advantage of its exclusive taxation right of IRAs -- the "saving clause" allows the US to tax this IRA -- and keep all the proceeds. No double taxation violation here. But if Thailand did tax the IRA, then the US would have to absorb a tax credit for this Thai taxation -- again, no double taxation. The OECD loves the concept of the saving clause, as it prevents a no no taxation situation, which is at the heart of the OECD's new Model Tax Treaty language. I won't belabor the point -- this IRA "saving clause" situation was settled in similar situation involving Switzerland -- and can be found at the below link. But Thomas Carden has successfully sold the IRA tax avoidance scheme to, apparently, many Yanks here in Thailand -- and the scheme is, apparently, too complex for the GS-11 at the IRS to see through (the Swiss example was solved by the senior lawyer on the IRS staff). https://aseannow.com/topic/1008555-tax-specialist-in-chiang-mai/page/2/ But now with all remittances, regardless of year remitted, being taxable -- Carden's snake oil bubble regarding IRAs has burst. Good. He's a licensed Enrolled Agent for the IRS -- and like with CPAs, he takes a fiduciary oath to protect his clients, and the US. Some of us take that oath seriously -- others apparently don't. So, beware of anything Carden is selling.

Naaaaa. That would really be retarded.

Nothing emotional about stating that most expats are familiar with the "last year's money" concept. And thus haven't filed a Thai tax return. Going forward, however, will probably be a different situation.

I thought it was a fair question, considering most normal expats don't file Thai tax returns. Over.

But we're not yet considering the new rules for this drill -- we're talking history. And historically every farang was probably aware about the "last year's money" concept of no Thai taxation. So, they were probably smart enough not to have any direct deposits of foreign payments, unless it was exempt from Thai taxation via DTA. Otherwise, remittances that could be taxable were filtered through a financial institution -- preferably one that had been open the previous tax year, and fully funded. But if not -- just pretend it had been, knowing TRD would assume, unless you're retarded, that you had used the "last year's money" concept. And thus wouldn't call you in for a chat. So, yeah, it is reasonable to assume very few expats have ever filed a Thai tax return. By the way, all those farangs you saw at TRD when you filed your taxes -- did they look like they worked in Thailand? Or did they look retarded? Just curious.

Why, for goodness sakes?

Ok, I won't call them idiots. So, what shall we call them? Misinformed?

And your proof of these things is where? In human nature. Only an idiot would file a tax return, when he didn't have to. Any other reason, particularly when no taxes were owed, would, I guess, be maybe because of an obscure, nonsensical requirement to file if having greater than 60/120/220, whatever, assessable income. Easily ignored -- with no reportable consequences -- due, I guess, to TRD common sense. Common sense, too, with your actions.

Has merit -- why? Why put yourself in TRD files as a tax filer -- when no taxes are owed? Probably (I hope) such a filing would go in the trash bin, as generating no interest, and no revenue. But, worst case -- you're now in the data base, and as such, they'll now expect an annual tax filing (even it it's another brain-dead nil filing) -- and if they don't get one, they'll investigate. No, only an idiot would file a nil tax return -- and put themselves on the radar screen for future tax filings.

If you have a smidgin of remitted assessable income well below being taxable -- after TEDA -- why subject yourself to filing, and for subjecting yourself to getting a TIN? Just stay off the radar. And, remember -- only if Thailand has secondary taxation rights per DTA, like on rental incomes, will a Thai tax return have to absorb a tax credit. But if the DTA says Thailand has exclusionary/primary taxation rights -- then the whole enchilada is taxable, and keepable, by Thailand (and no need for a tax credit line for foreign taxes). But, so what? If that kind of remitted income is well short of being taxable in whole by Thailand, after TEDA -- in my "smidgin" example -- again, save yourself the hassle of getting a TIN, and filing a tax return. Yeah, we hear about having to file if your "smidgin" assessable income exceeds 60/120/220/whatever. And if you don't -- a 2000 baht fine. Never happened, and never will. But if it did, well worth the cost for not wasting time with TINs, filings -- and putting yourself on TRd's radar screen.

Indeed. And for Canadians, per DTA, govt AND private pensions are both non assessable income for Thai tax purposes. So, remittances of such are just invisible for Thai tax filing requirement purposes -- and more importantly, for Thai tax payment obligation.

Right. Saw my error, and edited my response. Sorry.

Huh? My DTA gives the US exclusive taxation rights on my Air Force pension, and social securityl. You know that, of course -- so what am I missing here? Woops, you were addressing a particular poster's situation. Sorry.

Yeah, completely slams the Thaiexaminer for publishing hearsay. Especially the part about "all tax residents required to file a tax return." Now, maybe they heard a rumor about new tax return forms having line items to provide ALL remitted income, regardless of its assessability. In that case, maybe, then, all tax residents could be on tap to file a tax return, as TRD has become interested in the income not being declared per DTA. Anyway, video was correct to slam the Thaiexaminer as being way too far ahead of this potential bow wave. And, logically and fiscally -- TRD doesn't have the resources, nor the need, to screen tax returns from all tax resident. Geez.

Further substantiated from this 12-year old BP article: Not an exact fit, but good enuf IMO to use for an account with comingled pre 2024 and 2024 onward funds. Thus, FIFO would allow that exemption for pre 2024 income to be what you self assess as to what you remitted.

It could as a tie breaker. Here's a long-winded excerpt from the tech explanation of the US-Thai DTA. Most other DTAs, since most rely on Model OECD tax treaty language, say the same:

And if you're a Yank, not having a Thai TIN means you can make a one line tax credit entry on your US tax return -- to get back the Thai tax withheld.

You can't be serious..... Why would anyone want to be a moderator? Are you somehow implying that I applied for moderator -- and was turned down? Ludicrous.

It's too painful to watch her, with that high-pitched voice and that intolerable "I've-got-gas" grin. If she's said anything worthwhile, I'll read about it in the papers.

Why would anyone care about what you care about.......

Indeed. And Lister certainly was not qualified. Fortunately, he's gone -- but where? Sadly, his echo continues here.

But if you're smart enough to avoid folks who can't think outside the envelope -- you'll probably come to a better solution for a convoluted situation. And what could possibly be the 'happens to you later?' A fine on taxes not owed? Fish sauce on your hotdog? Nevermind.

Is that a pension for services provided to a UK govt organization, including the military? If so, if that's the income remitted to Thailand -- this income is not subject to Thai taxation (per DTA), so no need to file a Thai tax return. [But, if a private pension and remitted, yes, subject to Thai taxes, per the DTA.] Did the agent you used to get a Thai TIN ask you why you needed it? Did you mention private or govt pension? Probably not. They just had their hand out. Anyway, common sense says, if you don't need to file a Thai tax return, 'cause you owe no Thai taxes -- no realistic need for a TIN. Yes, specific language says maybe you should get one. But, if you don't -- and no taxes owed -- what's the penalty for avoiding the hassle of arguing with a TRD clerk, who's also relying on common sense. Not to belabor the point here, but to reference a thread, below, that thoroughly discusses TIN requirements. Pay particular attention to 'Troubleandgrumpy", whose arguments are sound and well-presented. Contrast this to Mike Lister's 'black and white' arguments, giving no room for an intelligent interpretation. Lister disappears during the thread -- but his 'black and white' arguments are assumed by poster Chiang Mai. https://aseannow.com/topic/1327316-tax-id-number/

Of course. But the "being a tax resident" aspect is not stated in their "get a TIN after 60 days." The below is a little clearer -- but how you incorporate the "60 day" rule is not: Anyway, if, like me, you'll never have any income -- remitted or worldwide -- that would be subject to Thai taxes -- forget getting a TIN. What could possibly happen? Besides, don't want my name in a TRD data base.