WinnieTheKhwai

Chiang Mai is not part of the popular beach scene where the bulk of the tourists prefer to visit.

Sure, but this is a big Thai real estate company; foreign customers don't make an impact on their bottom line either way, it's just too insignificant by comparison.

growth policy

There is no growth policy in Thailand. It's all very Darwinian. It's like rats. If the environment somewhere is favorable for a short time then you get thousands of them. Then when conditions change, there's mass extinction. ( And there's nothing wrong with that.

The best examples are actually the smallest of islands that are being developed. Say Ko Lipe for example. Incredible booming development, but no way to get supplies in, or get the waste out, provide medical or police or other services.. The place basically implodes under its own weight.

Fortunatley Chiang Mai is big enough to deal with both growth spurts as well as periods that aren't as hot economically. But this is not by policy.

"The" website?

Have you tried going to the immigration office and asking / looking at the prices posted on the wall?

It's possible that they're not looking at Chiang Mai because it's already saturated both in terms of the total market, and also because there are so many local developers? Land & Houses isn't exactly huge in Chiang Mai either.

Any relation to the Lemon Tree restaurant opposite the Shell Gas Station a bit up from Central on Huay Kaew?

They do really good Thai food.

Lot's of gay people seem to visit though, no clue why.

Thailand is like Italy in one respect.

The peasant food can be terrific. Even heavenly. Really, does anyone here pay big-baht for Royal Thai cuisine?

Ah.. I completely agree with that! And maybe that was what didn't sit too well with the Meridien restaurant. It was overly arty / nouvelle cuisine, and overly sweet. He might make a great pastry chef, though.

But yes, a lot of the appeal of Italian food is simplicity, things that work. (not talking pasta or pizza here as well, just the meat or fish dishes, stews etc.) I DO enjoy a nouvelle cuisine type touch to food on occasion, but if absolutely everything ends up looking like a Reese's chocolate cup with a blueberry and umbrella on top in the middle of a big plate with a stripe of equally sweet sauce around it, then I think someone has missed the essence of Italian food and is in desperate need of a beefy Italian Mama slapping him with a dough roller.

Amusing how astrology has been fused with "buddhism" rather pathetic.

Again, that is very Thai. Many (if not most) Thai Buddhists would engage in some form of astrology. If not outright fortune telling, then at the very least they'd consult with monks or astrologers on setting 'auspicious' days for major events in life, such as a wedding day or a house building ceremony. Signs of Feng Shui are all around, too.

To the letter of Buddhist scripture this is indeed not a Buddhist thing, but neither are ghosts and spirts and chao thee chao din worship, amulets and all kinds of other hocus pocus, but just look around...

Thai beliefs is a lot more than just Buddhism, and to call those additional things (usually animist things) pathetic is to call a big part of Thai culture and religion pathetic. (I'm more than ok with any form of religion anywhere being called pathetic, but just wanted to spell it out )

Alright, time for some serious slander then.. !!

(Kidding.. I do thank you for patiently answering all questions in great detail. Sometimes I like to shake the tree a little and see what falls out, but you've been like a grand old teak tree in that respect.. Have a fun and successful trip to Lampang! )

I would guess that you are both somewhat right. Some of the girls in the farang bars have STDs and a smaller proportion are HIV positive, but not nearly as many as some people seem to think.

Well, only complete newbies, backpackers and people with a religious agenda. Other than that, not too many people seem to think that.

Generally speaking, including myself. I believe that showed from the context that disappeared from your quote!

The point I made is that Chiang Mai IS interesting for a shorter or longer visit as a tourist, and that when you live a long time in a place you get so used to the interesting sights that they perhaps don't register as much as they used to. But to tourists they DO register. This applies especially when you get stuck in a rut (yes, including myself), it's especially good to go be a tourist every once in a while and take a walk around Chiang Mai town not long after dawn and see what goes on, look at the people, the vendors, the monks, the houses, the markets and temples.

The thing is though, he may be right; I wouldn't market a seriously posh and expensive place to local (s)expats either. However I'd probably acknowledge that it was a huge mistake to invest big in Chiang Mai in the first place, where you lack the big international business market that makes such a place viable in Bangkok or Singapore or Hong Kong. Not much use blaming local foreigners for their own gross mistakes in surveying the market.

As I mentioned before, he feels like the farangs living here are mostly a waste of time and intends to advertise only in Thai venues. It will be interesting to see if there are enough Thais willing to pay top dollar to make the place a success.

Sorry, is "the fella" Thai?

No, he is a farang.

Is it the fat Italian guy? (Not sure actually if he was Italian but he looked it. Anyway, the chef of the Italian restaurant at the Meridien I mean?

I wasn't very impressed there and wouldn't go again even if the prices were moderate. The guy put chocolate or other sweet stuff into just about every dish. Dishes sure looked nice, but the taste was just weird, frankly.

But thanks for posting the things he said about the local expat scene.. (Guess who will be here longest, those Chiang Mai farangs or the master chef at the Meridien... )

I wonder if that has something to do with the immigration people (or friends/relatives) operating a boutique copy shoppe on the premises.

Or there's just too many damned trees around in this county, and burning through paper holding the same information every 90 days x 50,000 foreigners goes some way to rid the world of this green pest.

Shorter pet life span = dramas with the kids more often. I'd get a turtle or a parrot.

Here's a thought:

http://www.beerbike.co.uk/

It always amazes me that this kind of thing is permitted to happen here.

Seriously, it amazes you? It it was permitted to happen in Sweden, THAT would amaze me.

Or even stronger: Isn't a big part of you (and myself, and many others,) being here in the first place very much related to so many things being permitted here? ( "Almost anything is permitted" == "freedom", the reverse side of that coin spelled 'moderate lawlessness and rampant corruption' ? )

You could have it your way, but then this forum would be SwedishVisa.

And:

The Patimokkha (monastic code) according to the Theravada school of Buddhism

Under the Theravada tradition, fully ordained Bhikkhus have to observe 221 precepts or training rules while novice monks or Samaneras have to keep 10 basic precepts.

One of these precepts explicitly forbids both Bhikkhus and Samaneras to accept or hoard money:

“Jatarupa-rajata-patiggahana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami (I undertake the precept to refrain from accepting gold and silver)”

It is also an offence for Bhikkhus to “pick up” or “consent to the deposit of gold or silver (money)”

“Should any bhikkhu take gold and silver, or have it taken, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed.”(Nis. Paac. 18; BMC p.214)

“Should any bhikkhu pick up, or cause to be picked up or consent to the deposit of gold or silver, this entails Confession with Forfeiture.” (Nis. Paac. 18; Paat. 1966 Ed. p.42)

“A monk, who accepts gold or money or gets another to accept for him, or acquiesces in its being put near him, commits [an offence requiring Confession with Forfeiture.]” (Nis. Paac. 18; BBC p.116)

“If a bhikkhu himself receives gold and silver (money) or gets someone else to receive it, or if he is glad about money that is being kept for him, it is [an offence of Confession with Forfeiture.]“(Nis. Paac. 18; Nv p.11)

Bhikkhus are only allowed to keep four basic requisites of robes, shelter, food and medicines to maintain their physical bodies for the purpose of practising meditation with the eventual aim of freeing oneself from all defilements.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhi...ld/faqmonks.htm

There's more, but we're already ridiculously distracted. I don't want to stubbornly focus on a minor point and will not reply on this issue hereafter.

The Buddhist Monk's Discipline

Some Points Explained for Laypeople

by Bhikkhu Khantipalo

[...]

Money

Regarding money, there are some bhikkhus who are of the opinion that this training rule cannot be kept in the modern world: they are willing to handle it for their own transport. (The use of money by bhikkhus is certainly not a new thing, since the original cause for the holding of the Second Sangayana at Vesali, in Buddhist Era 100, was the acceptance of gold and silver by them.) Laypeople are also heard to criticize bhikkhus who do not agree to handle money, on the grounds that this impedes the work of spreading Dhamma. On the other hand, there are traditions where bhikkhus bear in mind that this is an offense of expiation with forfeiture, while Lord Buddha has: "I do not say, O bhikkhus, that in any way may gold or silver (= money and valuables, according to the Commentary) be consented to, may be looked about for." The Second Sangayana ruled that it was inadmissible for bhikkhus to possess money and referred to the training rule in the Patimokkha (Nissaggiya Pacittiya 18).

Where this rule is fully adhered to, laypeople do not therefore give money to bhikkhus, nor expect them to carry it. Money can be made available for the use of a bhikkhu but not given to him. Such money, which is called after that which it purchases, the "four supports,"14 remains the property of the donor but is kept by the bhikkhu's steward or attendant (who is often a lay-disciple in training) to be used whenever this becomes necessary. At the time when such "four supports" are made available, the donor may say to a bhikkhu (or bhikkhus), "I invite you, sir, with this sum of... for the four supports," at the same time handing that amount to the bhikkhu's steward. Or a bhikkhu may receive from the hand of a layman a slip of paper reading; "I invite you with the four supports equal in amount to the sum of... which has already been handed to the steward. As you have need of it, please request it from him." Whatever is needed is then bought by the steward from that money. In this tradition, a bhikkhu has no money troubles and may leave such affairs to his steward. He is thus free from thoughts on having only a little, and not troubled by thoughts of what he will buy if there be much money. He can therefore concentrate on the work of Dhamma and Vinaya which he has chosen as his life.

Other items which it is not allowable for a bhikkhu to touch include: fruits (when still growing on trees), weapons, poisons (unless as prescribed by medicines), nets and snares, seeds, and musical instruments. Generally he will have no need of radio or television either!

> This has nothing to do with what you said.

I'm saying it now. Again the greater point remains lost on you.. Are you TRYING to miss it?

Monks should not be trading, making money and/or accumulating wealth or assets.

Can't put it simpler than that. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my first reply. Sheesh.

Ouch.

I had a burger a Boat yesterday, a couple doors up the road. I got their most expensive one with bacon, cheese and egg. It cost 38 baht.

Ok, it sucked, but it was worth the 38 baht.

monks (who aren't even supposed to touch money)

Where did you hear this?

In a temple?

I don't believe it because a monk would hsve a hard time doing most anything without touching money.

Thammayut monks, okay, but they aren't most of the monks....

True, of course, but usually around themples there'd be people taking care of the financial affairs that you inavitably need to get anything done. When you donate money to make merit you typically don't hand it to a monk, at the very least you put it in an envelope, and more likely still you'd then put it in a collection box.

I agree with you that in this day and age these things are very much 'worked around', but I think the greater point stands that in Buddhism, it's frowned upon for monks to engage in rampant trading and wealth accumulation. (And yes, it happens, but it's frowned upon. And if monks take it too far they do end up de-frocked.)

Here you see it illustrated.. Along with the other things that are frowned upon in Buddhism, which ironically are all hobbies of mine.

You can always off-load dogs at friend, relatives, a temple, etc. Come on, it's just a dog. This by the way is also the best way to OBTAIN one, i.e. let someone give one to you. I don't really understand paying money for a dog either. Come one, it's just a dog.

Would any of the gay places have ladyboys as well?

The army have been doing the construction as well. They've dug deep ponds surrounding the buildings but the land is on an angle so will be interesting to see what they look like when filled.

Chances are the water surface will be horizontal regardless.

First, I'd appreciate the name of the school you feel is good and costs 7000 Baht/month. If we haven't already considered it for our daughter, I'd like to visit it and check it out.

I'll could PM you two suggestions by private message, but I am not North of town; I'm not sure if there are similar places North of town. (My guess would be 'yes', but a guess isn't good enough of course).

I agree that a "proper" pre school might not be as good as a single English teacher, but we've visited a number of pre-schools and kidnergartens and I wouldn't describe many of them as "proper". Most were overcrowded and/or dirty and/or lax about watching the children.

Ok I can assure you that there are some very good schools around. Very clean, very safe, very good attention to the kids, and both Thai and Western teachers. It's really amazing how much even very young kids learn in a very short time. And they love going. It's a big variety of things they learn too, of course they sing songs and play games, but also manage to learn the alphabet (both Thai and English, and they're 3 years old..), and do fun things like decorate cookies, plant seeds of flowers, do school excursions for example to the zoo and aquarium and so on.

Our daughter is in a school now 2 days a week that we think is relatively proper, but it's still around 8 degrees celsius hotter than were we live and close to the exhaust fumes from Superhighway 11. When it's hot and smokey in Chiang Mai, we keep her home. Neither my wife nor I would want to be there (un-airconditioned) on those days, and we don't think our daughter should.

I would agree. The school where my daughter goes is near the hills, you get as good air there as anywhere. And in the hot season they turn on the aircon.. So that makes the environment pretty much the same as at our house.

Which brings me to what you say about my concerns about "air clarity and temperatures" not being "very valid". Why do you say that? Are you expressing a personal opinion? If that's the case, you're entitled to your opinions and I won't debate them with you. But as to the validity of my concerns, I'd suggest you Google "Chiang Mai" and "air quality" and "respiratory diseases".

I think you misunderstood. What I meant was (and what Google will turn up as well) is that air quality in March is a regional issue that affects the whole of Northern Thailand and beyond into Burma and Laos. I'm saying that it doesn't matter if you live in the mountains North of town or not, you still get crap air; it's not 'city' pollution. Heck, Mae Hong Son is as rural and mountenous as it gets, and the air was by far the worst in the country there during March. So I'm saying that while any concerns over air quality in general are for sure valid, the location of the school has little influence when it's anywhere in the North. You'd have to send your kids to school in Pattaya or Hua Hin or something during March to reasonably avoid the seasonal low air quality. (I'm actally considering this by the way; so I'm not dismissive of the issue you raise, just of the solution you came up with.)

> Even the government admits that the levels of smoke and other pollutants

> reaches dangerous levels in CM city from around December through April.

No they don't. Check those months here: www.pcd.go.th It reaches dangerous levels in late February and most of March. As it does every year. And NOT in "CM city", but everywhere, including where you live and much further beyond in the mountains still. But again, I share your concern. In fact I'm being more radical then you, because you seem to think that you get better air once you clear Mae Rim.. I know I'd have to go to Pattaya in March, (which isn't really a punishment but okay )

Do they do raw fish sushi? That is what I prefer, but I would be really worried about what you would get from one of those stands.

I think so. With the regular things like seaweed, shrimp/fish roe, etc. Even small markets way out of town have these now. It was a lot better than I expected. (Didn't expect THAT much, but I was pleasantly surprised)