JimShortz

I agree about choosing a good case, but to me that just means choosing one that seems substantially built, has USB and audio connections near the top (I like the computer under the desk where it doesn't buzz in my ear), doesn't have the annoying pointless drawer fronts for the DVD, and looks good to my taste.

As for PSU, I do agree that a good PSU is an investment, but the price also needs to fit in with the budget. I think, for a non-gaming machine, the one I specified in this system, with a 3 year warranty is just fine.

The processor used here is relatively low power consumption and shouldn't run very hot at all. The one I bought was the boxed one from Intel, with their cooler. I'm pretty confident that this should be sufficient... I hope! For a gaming rig with a high powered processor, or for overclockers, then better cooling would be essential, but not really here.

I assist with the purchasing of computers for a school that runs around 130 machines. The only ones that have ever caused us overheating problems were AMD chips (several different ones). For this reason we no longer use AMD in school and I never recommend them or buy themyself. I know, however, that others run them with no problems... YMMV

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Yes GuyL, they do indeed look like a great SSD, and that is certainly a reliable source.

One question I have for Kiwi1 is whether he plans to have an SSD only, or have a smaller SSD + a traditional hard drive. I guess to answer that we need to know a little more.

If he has a large music collection and uses the computer for significant torrent downloading then it really has to be a smaller SSD (I would suggest 120GB, smaller is annoying, when you consider it hosts all of your programmes + anything on the desktop) + a 1TB or bigger hard Drive.

If on the other hand he doesn't store much data a single 120GB SSD may be sufficient, although if it's a sole drive I would go for at least double that size - they are getting pricey at this level though!

Just some thoughts...

Great to see you are still here offering good advice GuyL!

Since Advice didn't have the IDE to SATA converter I wanted in stock (and said that they couldn't get it) I decided to order off eBay. It has cost the vast sum of about 80 Baht including shipping. I'm sure I could've found one elsewhere in Chiang Mai, but I am in no rush, so took the lazy route! The card that you mention sounds like a very good idea. I might take a look at that too; the converter would always be handy to keep in-hand anyway.

I've just spoken to Kiwi1 outside of the forum to make an arrangement for early next month to put his computer together. We agreed to continue the discussion here instead of on the phone so that we could pool the wisdom and share the final decision.

From my discussion with Kiwi1 I gather that he is after probably much the same machine, but he needs to buy a case (suggestions anyone?) and most probably wants to go with an SSD, actually more for increased reliability rather than just the speed improvements. Are any more reliable than others? I'd never really though about it that way, but i guess being solid state (with no moving parts) they ought to be more reliable too.

GuyL, why do you recommend the Samsung 840 EVO in preference to other SSDs? I have a Vertex in one of my machines and an Intel in the other. Neither were chosen for a great reason other than price and availability!

Thanks very much JS:

Will need a little study to get all on board, but good learning curve for me.

Yes, I have been a ham radio operator for a bit over sixty years and look forward to learning how to build PCs, or at least replace major components.

Will take a bit of time to get up to speed.

Yes, Lenovo has two front fans and I sit it on a laptop cooling pad. Case still gets warmer in the way of the power supply than I would like, tho.

Hi Kiwi1, JS is offering lots of good advice, including the well respected websites that he refers to as solid places to look for advice. I'd follow that up and do a bit of research, as you say.

I'm flat out for the next couple of weeks, but if you need help after the end of this month I will be happy to meet up with you to finalise what you buy and give you a hand with the shopping. I can also help you out with the OS - it's best not to let them install that un-updateable Windows 7 image that they throw on in the shops. They just want it quick and easy...

Happy researching!

Thanks a lot for your truest opinion regarding my computer skills. I'm usually only using programs to create lesson plans, slideshows, etc....

But this particular PC was challenging my intelligence and made me understand a lot more.

Our son will go to the technical college soon and wants to learn all about computers and I'm only trying to support him, as all is in English.

Fact is that I know more about soft and hardware now, than anybody who's working at our computer shops.

Sorry, if my posts had caused you any inconvenience.

I'm sorry if I offended you sirchai - in retrospect I should have probably kept my mouth shut...

Good luck with the computer tinkering and helping your son out. Sorry!

Very interesting read JSixpack - enlightening indeed!

It's so easy when you haven't had much hands on experience to get into reading too many reviews and believing that you will get huge gains in usability from spending lots more. Clearly not always true...

I can remember falling for this back in the day of 486 processors, if you can go back that far. I swapped one out for another with a higher Mhz rating, believing it would be a revelation. The revelation was that the OS wasn't happy and I needed to do a full reinstall, only to find it was very little faster than what I had before. I really couldn't tell the difference in actual use, but only by running benchmarks tests! Lol

I am not into naming and shaming, but towards the end of this thread a member who clearly had the best of intentions PMed me to inform me that I really need at least a quad core processor, more Ram, an expensive PSU, improved case cooling, etc. The thing is, I know he meant well, but has just been led up the garden path to believe this (along with lots and lots of others).

For me, cheap(ish) is the future, even when building for myself + more beer with all of the change! ;-)

I'm sure that you haven't taught your son anything other than how to steal software. You did not even know the difference between DDR and DDR2.

If you think that loading unnecessary bloat will somehow make either of you knowledgeable, you should think again.

Although I think Jiu-Jitsu is being a bit harsh here, I would add that from the knowledge of computer components that you have shown (or rather, not) through this thread you are probably not the ideal person to be teaching your son too much about computers. I do, however, like you, enjoy this kind of tinkering with my son, and think it is a great thing to do together.

I'm afraid your selection of software including discredited tune-up software (all of this is widely regarded as tosh) and less well regarded antivirus doesn't make your skills in this area look too hot either. IMHO you might be better approaching this with your son from the angle of "I don't know much about this either son, let's see what we can learn together". There's nowt wrong with learning together... ;-)

After 20+ years, I'm horrified when there is no bum gun and I am forced to use paper.

I feel the same. Next trip back to the UK I'm taking s bumgun with me.

Be careful about that. I got one brought back to NZ from Thailand....it was not made for the high pressure here and the day after installation, I came home to a river pouring out of my toilet. Also, the UK may not be suitable unless you have a supply of tepid water.

In the UK I would only install these in a wet-room type bathroom. All of the guns fail eventually...

As regards temperature, it should be a simple task in any bathroom to take a feed from both hot and cold pipes, with valves (or a mixer) used to adjust the mix of water to a lovely warm temperature! It would only be necessary to adjust the valves seasonally to allow for the changing cold water temperature. As simple as wiping your a**e...

And yes, I have put too much thought into this... I must get a new hobby!

In short, yes, there are 4 types of HDMI cable, each with different levels of data throughput, so they are not all the same

But.... All of those transfer rates are so far beyond what even super high definition video requires that it makes no real world difference at all!

The only time I had a cable fail was when the actual HDMI plug fell apart as I pulled it from the TV, so it's worth having a look at that to see if it looks well made. Other than that any should work just fine.

The final report...

It's a beauty! I can't benchmark it since I have already delivered it to its extremely happy owner, but... having been installing multiple programs at the same time while downloading and browsing there is basically no lag, and multi-tasking is great.

At its new home the computer today ran full 1080p video on the TV while we were setting stuff up and downloading updates using the PC screen (I have it setup as an extended two monitor desktop) completely problem free.

I guess what this build has taught me is that for most users the real high-end stuff is not necessary at all. Put a 3k video card in this box and it would even be a pretty decent gaming machine!

I was discussing this build with a visiting friend a few days ago and he was telling me how much he had spent on an i7 rig with 16GB ram, great video card, etc. BUT he basically uses it for the same as this machine will be used for. His machine is complete overkill for his use, but is what you are sold if money is no object I guess... I know many people see this as future proofing, but the components still get old and are more likely to fail than if you build a new moderate machine every few (5?) years, IMHO. If you're rich though, who cares!

Tesco Lotus have some budget towers for sale and occassionally they have a 30 or 40 percent sale. There is one on at the moment to clear Songkran stock. You can therefore get a box ready to go for 4 or 5k THB. And then tweak it if needed.

Not really, I'm afraid... I always take a peak at those offers. They seem like a good idea, but are ALWAYS low spec junk that tweaking would involve replacing every component... They are useable (you can use anything) but unpleasant!

Alright, report back time. I was at the shop for 10am this morning and gave him my printed list (exactly as I listed above). Surprisingly, they had everything except that motherboard, the SATA/IDE convertor and the case. So, I headed over to JIB and bought the motherboard from them for just 90 Baht more than Advice sells it for, went back to Advice and asked them to get all of the other components together. They are slow!

While they mess around I went around the nearby plazas on a hunt for a cheap case. Unfortunately everything around 4 or 5 hundred Baht was nasty, so I decided keep the original case.... I could have hunted for the SATA/IDE convertor, but couldn't really be bothered. That's for another day.

Anyway, I'll try and keep this short. I headed home with everything else, stripped the case, put all the new gubbins in, connected up all of the leads and booted her up. Hoorah, all working, lights and all. Windows 7 ultimate 64 bit installing as I type this from a nearby cafe where I am having lunch. Not bad.... I have done this many times before, but not for a few years. The motherboard manual was a great guide for all of the leads and it went like clockwork. I am waiting for the failure now! This is too good, lol.

I should have mentioned that the HDD price had apparently leapt 300 Baht overnight, so altogether I have spent about 9k and have a cracker I think. They would have done the putting components together for 300 Baht, but to be honest if you know a bit about the inside of computers it is simple enough to do it yourself - especially if you are testing the limits of Cheap Charlie builds.

Happy days!

That's a well-balanced configuration for your budget IMHO.

Thanks GuyL, you really helped me a lot in getting there.... Have a beer from me

Now let's see what they have in stock!

Okay, final decision - off to the shop in an hour...

I really do take on the SSD point (I love 'em), BUT I wouldn't buy less than a 120GB and that's out of range for now. If he stuffs up the OS in a couple of years and I end up doing a reinstall I may encourage the SSD at that point - he gets a a second "oh my that's fast": experience! For now, with downloading, he needs a large reliable space for storage, the Seagate SATA will give him that with the IDE drive used for backup only. I think I will just put the 250GB in and retire the 80GB (actually I might use it to make a system image once I have got his machine fully installed, then I can use it for a fast future restore if needed).

Lastly (before I am off to the shops)...

Thank you all for your valued input and helping me to chew over the pros and cons of the various options. In the end I am persuaded that power is worthwhile, even for this relatively light user. Once it is all setup I'll do some benchmarks on it and report back. I think she is going to be a beauty - and with 3 years warranty on all major components. Not bad for 9k Baht... WAY better than anything available "off the shelf" for this money.

This old guy thinking of copying the recipe.

Just go to the shop in Chiangmai with the list?

Cost not all that critical.

Already have the UPS.

Question: HDD always seemed a suspect technology to me.

How about solid state alternative.

Is this feasible nowadays, and at what cost?

Hi Kiwi1, yes you could indeed just go to the shop with the list. They will assemble it for you.

SSDs are a great alternative. They are super fast, silent, and cold! But... The cost per gigabyte is still about 10 times that of HDD. If money is not an issue, go for it - it makes a huge difference to boot up time, program opening time etc. I have them (120 GB size) in both my desktop and laptop as the first disk, with an additional HDD in each for storage. I did this in my laptop (older macbook pro) by removing the DVD drive and installing the HDD in its place a caddy bought off eBay for 500 Baht.

I believe in keeping relatively old hardware running if it still meets your needs, BUT i'm afraid this machine is at the end of it's useful life and I wouldn't personally want to put any more time or money into it. Sorry.

If you want a cheap way to replace it take a look at the various build options considered in the current thread here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/718662-building-a-low-cost-but-capable-desktop-opinions-sought/

I'm sorry to be telling you that the old girl is terminal, BUT it is time to let her slip away... If you reinstall with XP, or a good Linux distro you could find her a good retirement with someone who has no money to buy!

One of the most informative and pleasant topics I've followed.

Wow..44 replies without a single snarky remark.....some sort of record here.

Lol, it is indeed a refreshing change, and I think I will be building a much more appropriate machine after all of the great advice.

I guess it's because all of us techie guys are lovely people. It's the luddites you have to watch out for... ;-)

I agree, not a great machine, but in terms of upgradeability, throwing away the mobo from this setup when upgrading is only about 400 Baht more than throwing the G3220 chip from the socket 1150 mobo... and would therefore allow me a better upgrade path involving both the mobo and CPU, for almost the same money (and a mobo/CPU combo left over for putting in to some low power use - a NAS for example). Strange but true! The more I type the more I am convincing myself that this low power (low power usage) config is the way to go...

and yes, the UPS is a good investment.

Okay, new plan!

I have thought about it, but can't bring myself to keep the old case. This is partly because it looks old, but more significantly because the USB sockets are right at the base and the person this is for has a huge struggle getting down to them - I can't give him any more pain. Or can I? No, no...

So, I will keep the case and get a power supply with a 3 year warranty to match. He doesn't have a UPS so it would be good to get one of them too - all within the 10k budget. Aah well, I love a challenge and this way is fun. Expensive is child's play...

The IDE - SATA convertors that GuyL just mentioned (thank you - great spotting) also look like winners, for a mere 110 Baht each. That way I can keep the old hard drives. This also means that I can consider an SSD instead of a larger SATA drive, but having just extracted the IDE drives from the old machine I see that they are only 80 and 250GB so I think he would still be better off, for his media based use, with a 1TB SATA drive instead of an SSD. He's been using a P4 for the last three years, so i don't think he cares too much about speed - this will seem incredibly fast to him, whatever I build...

To eek the budget a little further it is worth looking at a mobo with integrated CPU. in the past these were all Atom (and so, hopeless), but the one that Advice sells is a Haswell Celeron, and more than powerful enough for an old fella to browse the net and download movies... It is reviewed here: http://www.overclockerstech.com/biostar-mini-itx-motherboard-review/all/1/ It's even overclockable, but I can't see him doing that!

Using this board as a basis I could go for a basic, but very adequate system like this:

• BIOSTAR (NM70I-1037U) + on-board CPU Celeron 1.80GHz (3yr warranty) = 2,370
• Kingston DDR3 ram, 1 x 4Gb (lifetime warranty) = 1,260
• 1 TB. SATA-III Seagate (64MB, STrek) HDD (3yr warranty) = 2,030
• DVD RW Samsung (1yr warranty) = 510
• 2 IDE to SATA convertors (to install both old HDDs in the machine) = 220
• PSU 450W DTECH (3yr warranty) = 575
• Case: eMaster E-3306B (Black) = 450

• Two 512mb ram chips that work paired: KVR333X64C25/512 Kingston DDR333, and an unbranded DDR 184 pin PC2100
• Mobo with P4 chip and fan (believed faulty, no video output)
• Case and PSU from this setup
• iDE DVD drive

I love the way this thread is going. Thanks all for the great range of ideas.

I'll try and respond to some of what's been said...

I take the point about a good PSU, but 2k Baht is way out of range in this budget build IMHO. This does need looking at though. The old machine's case could be used, but is a bit ugly! I could also salvage the DVD if the mobo accepted IDE. For that matter I also have a 500GB and an 80Gb IDE drives. I plan to put the larger one in a cheap external enclosure and put the little one into "storage", unless anyone has better ideas. Is it possible to find a mobo that could still use them?

I'm not at home now, but will post pics of the "gorgeous" case later!

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Thanks GuyL, the 8GB chip makes sense I guess, although I'm not sure this machine will still be around to see 16GB, and by going single chip you lose the dual channel advantage - small though it is... :-)

I was always very opposed to Celeron, but this Haswell one seems pretty good - shockingly close to the G3220 in the tests I have seen. In real world use I am guessing that I couldn't see any difference, probably... Why would you avoid it? Is it same as me, Celeron aversion based on past experiences, or related to this actual chip?

My thinking is the cheaper the chip the easier it is to throw and upgrade in two or three years, if needed.

I don't know... Lol. Anyway, thanks again for your ideas, and helping me reach a better conclusion.

Great input fellas, thank you. This is really helping me out. Hopefully will be of use to other Cheap Charlie builders too.

I have been out checking in the stores and for under 10K what you buy seems to all have 2GB ram, a 500GB HDD and low spec everything, so this certainly looks worth the effort building. I was under the impression that except for gaming rigs it is no longer worth building your own, but unless someone finds me a great deal that I have missed, I see nothing off-the-shelf worth buying at this price...

Of course, I won't actually build it, the Advice store can do that. I'll just install the software. It will be running Windows 7 64 bit by the way (and yes, a fully updateable version, so no worries there). I would consider Windows 8, but the leap from XP to 7 is going to be tough for the err... ageing gent (read, old bugger!) that I am building it for.

I am probably now at:
Intel Celeron G1820 Haswell two core CPU - 1,400 (see comparison with G3220 here: http://tinyurl.com/ozh35k5)
Gigabyte GA-B85M-HD3 - 2,340
Kingston DDR3 ram, 2 x 4Gb - 2,520
1 TB. SATA-III Seagate (64MB, STrek) HDD - 2,030
mATX Tsunami Genius case and PSU - 890
DVD RW Samsung - 510

Total is therefore 9,690 Baht - just under budget... (I could still get just 4GB Ram to keep the price lower, but will pay the price in a few years time I know)

I like the idea of the super cheap (and seemingly fairly capable for general use) CPU, but in a socket 1150 motherboard that accepts pretty powerful chips. I can imagine chucking the chip in a few years time and putting in something more powerful (if needed) and not feeling that much had been wasted.

OP, your Western Digital hard disk drive is probably (at the above mentionned price) not a blue but a green one: http://thesystem.co.th/products/previews.php?code=A0061996

I have had bad experiences with WD green HDDs in the past (black are OK though) and would rather recommend, for about the same price, this Seagate 1TB HDD: http://thesystem.co.th/products/previews.php?code=A0058234

I don't like much Seagate HDDs either, but according to my (and my friends') experience, they are a bit more reliable. When available, I would rather buy an Hitachi HDD, but haven't found one in your price range for a 1 TB capacity within Advice Distribution's website.

Hi GuyL, thanks also for your time. The HDD I mentioned is indeed Blue, see http://www.advice.co.th/products/preview.php?code=A0061974 but actually I think you are right with the Seagate, for a whole 40 Baht extra, I will go for that.

That leaves the motherboard. I agree in preferring the Asrock over the MSI. It's either that or the Gigabyte that I mentioned in the first post, the GA-B85M-HD3, see here: http://www.advice.co.th/products/preview.php?code=A0059138

They are both based on the same chipset and are almost the same price. I have bought both Asrock and Gigabyte before and have been happy with both. For the money I am probably erring towards the Gigabyte board. It's more expandable (although beyond our needs really) and I kind of trust Gigabyte quality more. What do you think?

Don't skimp on the motherboard. That's where the future lies, and could trigger a replacement.

I can't find that MSI board, but the Asrock has just two ram slots, dual channel. That means that you need two matching sticks of ram, and if you ever want to upgrade, you can't just add. You have to replace. I can only see one PCI slot although the specs say it has two. I don't think I'm blind, lol. LINK

It has only 4 sata connectors. My mobo has 6 and I wish I had more. Have to add a card.

All of the ram for the video and audio is going to have to come from the mobo since there aren't slots to add cards with memory. It really wouldn't cost much more to put 8 gig of ram in it, and have plenty while avoiding tossing out the 4 gig later. It will run fine on 4 for what you describe, but over time he will add programs, and current program updates will use more ram. (you need a 64 bit operating system to see more than 4 gig, you know.)

I simply don't like that mobo. Isn't very expandable or upgradeable.

Hi NeverSure, thanks for your time replying. I agree with you in not loving the board, but to be honest I don't love many in this price range! If this was for me I would want the 6 SATA slots too, but for where this is going 4 seems like plenty (2 free for expansion later) to me - that would have us up to e HDDs and a DVD.... One PCIe for possible video expansion + one regular PCI also probably more than meets his needs to be honest!

What I may take on board though is banging 8 Gb ram in now. To keep the cost within his budget I may swap the G3220 chip out for a 500 Baht cheaper Haswell Celeron G1820 for 1,400 Baht. Normally I wouldn't consider Celeron, but from what I read this is not a bad chip at all and fits in the socket 1150 board, so leaving room for a future chip upgrade to an i5 or better. Pretty future proofed, as much as a PC ever can be...

I believe that all of the motherboards I mentioned max at 16gb ram. For now I will only be putting 4 in anyway. The person I am building it for will never use photoshop or other power hungry applications anyway. He only multitasks by accident! :-)

Another board I am considering is the Asrock B85M-HDS for 2,160. This also seems to fit the bill quite well.