smo

2 hours ago, dufusdonald said:

It would be interesting to know who in fact put the plan together. Surely, it was not the remarkable ex governor of Chiang Rai who seems to be getting all the credit. He didn't have the qualifications to come up with the plan. Someone else did. My guess it was the Brit divers in conjunction with the US divers.  They laid out the plan and told this guy what was needed and he got it done to his credit.

 

But the real credit "plan wise" as to who came up with the tethering idea for example and put it together is totally lacking in reporting.  Just saying am curious to know who and how it came about. 

 

 

Coming from the land known as Hollywood, I would credit the role of "producer" to the gov'nor. While "director","star","script writer", "set production" etc credits go to the farang experts then the under-the-line production belongs to the cast of a thousand who toiled in the mud. When a a movie wins an Oscar for "best picture" it's the producer(s) who rush to the podium but those in the profession always understand it's a (huge) team effort. However, it's the producer who brought them all together. The end product would not have been "best picture" without him.

The endless nitpicking we all endure here on TVF regarding who/which nation led the effort is over what regarded as "top billing." In other words, vain and glory, that human nature is never having enough of...
 

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

As for the coach, I can understand him not following any basic safety precautions as this isn't normal practice in Thailand. What really baffles me is why he led them 4km into the cave system, barefoot with no hard hats. If he had only gone as far as the first large cave and had his picnic there he would have easily led the party out when the water started to rise. The route they took was the same as the route used to rescue them, a route difficult enough that, even when dry, should only be attempted by experienced cavers with the appropriate equipment.

Guy was irresponsible and unthinking and seriously endangered the lives of the children in his charge

Thanks for the info regarding the safety caution taken in the UK. Now I'm curious at how it is done in our US of A... There is a frightening youtube clip about a dude going potholing and ending up (dead) literally headlong into his vertical rock coffin. 

Regarding the young coach's action, I agree (at the start of monsoon season no less, though a lot of posts nitpicking about the warning date on the entrance sign.) Re how far they were when the flood waters rushed in (I assume coming  from the direction of the cave entrance) they might have been somewhere between what you regard as safe distance and how familiar they were with the cave. It seemed like they ran searching for safer grounds and going further and further into the cave, thus ended up where they were which is very deep indeed.
 

11 hours ago, Sheryl said:

....

Note that the Brit cave rescuers have not talked to the media, nor have the US Seals (except for their official spokeswoman, sent for the purpose of drawing off the media and well versed in the art of saying nothing pleasantly) nor the Aus divers.

Indeed. As icing on the cake, her verbal acrobatic talent is also pleasantly accompanied by an accolade of "our gorgeous *her name here* the USN lady captain..." from one poster on this board (who I think has never been to America, either that or he's been spending too much time in the Extreme Orient ie the Far East.) 

I bet there's a job opening  in the White House awaiting her when she gets back (our dear Sarah better watch out.)

9 hours ago, samjaidee said:

One can't help but be impressed that a Thai expert used a word like "sisyphean", a word the you wouldn't expect a native speaker to use. It must be rare for a Thai academic in a scientific filed to have an interest in Greek mythology.

You'll be surprised... I have a Thai friend who speaks pretty good English, however her problem is the use of "hi-faluting" (don't mean that in a bad way) words in every day life situation. Not that it is her style, it the vocabulary coming from higher education (graduate studies) instead of that of living language.  I can't help but be impressed and amused at the same time.

I agree, "sisyphean" is totally apt in this context, there's really no other (single) word to beat it... Just want to add that I sincerely hope the final outcome won't turn out to be a "pyrrhic" victory!

1 hour ago, tingtongtourist said:

21 hours ago, smileplur said:

My understanding is that the man entered the cave after being called by the parents.

I did read that also.

But there is an earlier story that say one boy contacted a parent who forbid him to go into the cave with them.

The parent then come and pick up the kid from somewhere around the entrance.

 

I may be wrong but the words of that report sound as the coach did organise it.

 

I find it VERY hard to believe that 1 parent would collect their boy but not report or say angthing to anyone, IF those boys were going in there alone.

This was also what I  heard (was trying my best listening in so don't count on 100% accurary) on Thai news a few days ago and reported this bit on an earlier thread:

"This boy #13 was also part of the team and was going along with the expedition after their Sat game practice. On the way they made a pit stop at the coach's house, during which the coach told his mother - or she asked - of where they were going. She made a comment/reply which escaped me but I guess it was probably something along the line, are you crazy? Luckily this bit of critical info was passed along to one mother of one of the kids. When the group arrived at the cave, this one kid got a phone call from his mom, she told him not to go in but wait for her instead, she was on her way to pick him up."

Maybe the coach's mom did spread the news, but she is not a phone operator so I don't see her flipping through her son's rolodex and taking the time to call up all 13 kids parents. However one mother who got the info did exert some common sense and reacted in time to save her boy (there are, or were video clips interviewing this kid and his dad). What gave me the feeling that the coach led the trip was the way how the bicycles all lined up one after another and chained to the handrail - and each boy's belongings or whatever was placed under each bike. Seems very orderly shall we say. That tells me some supervision was present. (In other words, if the kids were by themselves, I would expect to see the bicycles lying about haphazard.) 

Now that the "new" news was that the coach did not take the boys into the cave, but indeed arrived later and went in to look for them.... Does anyone remember the earlier about some workers got injured by electrocution and had to be taken to the hospital, only later to learn that oh, they only had some minor stomach ailments. Have you met any Thai that would go to hospital to treat minor stomach ailments? I haven't. Do you think that on-site ambulances had nothing to do so they rushed them to the hospital for stomach ailments? I don't. 

I think the evolving story about the coach, oh sorry, I mean assistant coach's, action is only part of the news spin cycle that is preparing a suitable scenario for a big celebration in the making. Makes me sigh that folks can be so gullible sometimes. However anyone here or elsewhere expecting an accurate, honest to god final account to come out of this incident is really, really, naive. 

32 minutes ago, smo said:

HELLO, WORLD!!!!

New or old, who cares. It fits the mood of the moment. I'm happy to see them in this joyful state!

7 minutes ago, smo said:

Families at their mission center

 

Actually they are going home for a good night sleep tonight, at last....

Families at their mission center

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

The biggest risk is not the time that has passed. It was the initial flooding and everything hinges on where they were when it occurred, how fast the cave filled up and what they did at that point. They knew the cave well and would know where dry elevated areas are. Time-wise, they may have been in ta dry area when the flooding hit it,  since that seems to have been their destination and would be a likely spot to stop, rest and eat their snacks. If they had not yet reached it - or had reached it and already turned back to head out -- they would not have been far when the water started and (again in the opinion of expert cavers)could have gotten to dry ground in time. However we cannot be certain they did. They could conceivably  have been caught by the waters in one of the narrow areas if the flooding came in very rapidly, or, if it started slowly they might have  made the mistake of trying to head out and beat the rising waters and gotten overtaken along the way.  We don't know.  But there is at least as much or more likelihood they were in or reached dry ground in time and remain there, as prior trapped cavers did.

 

If they survived the initial flooding by getting to (or remaining on) dry high ground -- as is entirely possible, though of course not certain -- then there is every reasonable expectation that they are still alive now, and will be tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after etc. Terrified and hungry, but alive.

 

 

 

 

Best-case scenario with too many "if" boxes that need to be ticked off that under the best
circumstance, might work among a bunch of non-bickering, well-coordinating adults in sound mind and able
body (this probably rules out the majority of Thaivisa board.) But these are kids in their early
teens who are, safe to assume, unexperienced with this kind of catastrophic encounter with mother nature and I bet this is their first (and might well be last) encounter of the kind. They might be familiar with
the caves, but they are not "athletes" nor cave diving experts by any stretch of the imagination.
And being kids, they are also prone to panicking, to slipping, sliding and falling when nagivating
- without any of the myriad of necessary equipment - the treacherous terrain that goes from steep ledges to
unmoveable boulders to sudden crevasses that could swallow them up faster than the blink of an
eye. And they had to do this in near (another best-case) total darkness. While the flash flood was
rushing up right behind them or closing up their exit route in front or steadfastly sweeping them away. This
is the wet, cold*, dark and utterly horrible reality that some folks just can't face.

* many of the Thai TV reporters were shocked at how cold the water  was coming out of the pumps.

15 hours ago, Yme said:

The time for blame will come at the end. But it's interesting if your understanding is correct. Do you still have a link to those sources?

Thanks!

Sorry I was treading in murky waters (unfortunate metaphor I know) meaning I was in Thai language cyberspace where all the clips not only speak thai but their headlines are also in Thai and I could only proceed by thumbshots (which also tended to look alike). In the white heat of getting to the fact I did not stop and take note of each instance. But like I said, I did check in Cortana about the subject first ("survivor") to make sure I wasn't venturing off-base. I guess you could do the same with a google search and embed "survivor" into the subject line.

One thing I was trying to do was taking a screenshot of one pic of the team I ran across that features all 13 boys (sans coach.) If nothing else I wanted to look out for my "surviving" boy so that I could make sure it was him. Unfortunately my tablet wasn't cooperating (temperamental as usual) so when I pressed power  and volume up/ or down button simultaneously I ended up shutting the damn thing off instead.?

19 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

I was in Mae Sai today, and it hadn't rained in quite a while, and we could see the helicopters bombing around and drilling and tunneling equipment on standby down the road. I couldn't help thinking, If this weather holds, maybe they can get further in today. We went into the Macro which has a view of the mountain, and just as we got inside a massive rainfall started and everybody looked towards the mountain and it seemed like we all sighed at the same moment. So discouraging

This breaks my heart! Best reporting so far of the whole mess...One single paragraph that brought tears to my eyes. btw, have you seen the Brits experts trooping about, whatever happened to them, don't hear from/about them no more, have they gone underground in more ways than one? 

I caught a snippet of thai TV news interviewing a schoolkid apparently a teammate who for some reason was left out of the "expedition". He looked kinda in shock understandably....They also interviewed the dad, it went real short ("maybe now is not the time...") but I would have given anything to understand what the man got to say.

On 6/29/2018 at 10:09 AM, Kohsamida said:

Hey smo,  Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful reply.  Everything you said sounds logical and I think I will follow up as you suggested.  One problem though is the fact that Customs in BANGKOK is holding the package.  I am in Chiang Mai.  When you suggest "going back to them in person" are you suggesting that I do this through the local THAI POST office, the local CUSTOMS office at CNX airport, or Customs in BANGKOK?  Obviously, the latter would not be worth the effort.

Sorry I confused with another poster who said had gone to customs in person. You have only called them....The way things stand right now is customs is waiting for your declaration of items and once they receive it they will proceed with clearing it and then (hopefully no more glitches this time with the e-cigar confisticated out of the way) forwarding it to your local PO. The latter will send you a notice to pick up once they have it in possession. 

What raised my eyebrow is customs "suggesting" you abandoning "it". Such suggestion seems odd (government authorities don't usually suggest, it's the job of your lawyer) and "it" means what, just the item or the whole package? Anyway, send the declaration to customs, wait for a week, then go to your local PO and ask them to check on the status of the package. Make sure you go with a Thai friend this time, more often than not a whole new world opens up when thai is spoken and more importantly, understood. If PO says it's still stuck in customs, then you have a legit reason to call them again. Do so and once they recognize the case, meaning they say, oh yes, you have called before and let's see...then pass the phone to your thai advocate and let him/her do the talking. Lots of work but I wouldn't abandon my 450 bucks worth of items so easily.

10 hours ago, RandolphGB said:

 

He had taken kids in the cave before. He knew the area and would have spoken to friends and family about the cave. The fate of the children is entirely down to his response to being trapped - does he run deeper inside, find a cavern, try and swim back. Will he have kept control of the group if  they survived the initial deluge. Would he have cracked himself. The Thai rescuers should have been finding out everything possible  about him from day one.

Exactly, and not only because he was the one that brought on this tragedy in the first place. He took the kids into the danger zone despite the huge red warning sign posted at the entrance that spells out "DANGER" in both languages. Did he think if it's dangerous starting July 1st then it's still okay to come in before midnight of June 23rd? He apparently did. That's why taking his profile might be useful: From the psychological we might arrive at the practical (answer), would he have made a left turn or a right turn at the critical junction - one of the first questions that baffled the Brit expert, "did they turn right, or turn left?" 

This is not about criticism of anyone action at this point, up to and including that of the coach.It's more about what other steps could have been taken in order not to render the "rescue" plan so much of a guessing game as we see unfolding day after day. We might drill the whole mountainside into a giant Swiss cheese and still find nothing (or no-bod-ies I'm afraid). This is one of those instances, to borrow a cliche, where it helps to think "outside the box." Some folks are not used to this concept, it freaked them out apparently.

 Just watched this video clip update of same Brit expert. He looked really, doggone-ly grim I could almost read the subtitles: "What the fck you think we could do at this point?" He said he knows this particular cave system very well... One thing I like about the Brits is that they do not smile when there's nothing to smile about, unlike us Yanks we always try to look upbeat and cheerful as if we were in a frigging commercial no matter what.

1 hour ago, RandolphGB said:

This was my instinct when the story first appeared. A lot depends on the coach and how he responded to the first sign of flooding, and where they were in the cave. Unfortunately they could have been drowned very quickly. 

Allow me to speak of the unspeakable: Could this be a suicide mission by the football coach? because his action appeared suicidal to me. As for taking along a dozen youngsters, this reminds me of the crazed (german or belge?) pilot slamming his commercial aircraft into the mountainside. An adult closely supervising a group of minors always makes me feel uneasy... excuse my paranoia but I come from the land of the Turpin folks (and more recently the lesboz couple driving off the cliff with their foster kids in their SUV.) I sincerely hope this is absolutely not the case. But if that was the direction of the group going in inside the grave - sorry for the freudian slip - the cave, then all rescue efforts are moot from day one.

Maybe a look into coach's social media could provide either reassurance that he's not a total nutjob (something in the vein of we all shall go to nirvana together) - or some pertinent clues as to which way they were heading (that one of the Brit experts was debating.) By now my only hope is that miracles sometimes occur.

For those of us this is foreign terrain, it has been mentioned in similar threads, but the movie "The Descent" expertly shows a frightful reality to the joy of spelunking.
. 

Let's not just yet abandon all hope!

I don't think they would fine you for one illegal item, especially if you let them confisticate it. If and when you receive the notice for post office pick-up, if there is a fine you'll see it on the notice along with other duty fees and such on the remaining items. If you don't want to pay the fine, then don't show up, the post office would keep the package for the customary 30 days, and afterward they would return it (minus the illegal and now confisticated item.) Hopefully the fine if there is one, would be markedly less than the remaining value of the package (say under 200 usd fine vs. 400 value) and therefore you might as well just suck it up and get the other items. This has never happened to me (re illegal item) so I'm only speculating.

But you are still not getting the notice for PO pickup, hmmm...My guess is that had you not called on them, they were going to confiscate the e-cig, and then scrutinize what else is there in the package, before clearing it out to the post office -could be the reason it was taking so long...However,your inquiry seemed to have further delayed/contested the process and a new piece of document was being introduced, namely your declaration from the receiving end. The fact that they asked for it and at the same time told you to go home and wait could very well be a misunderstanding due to language barrier. Their suggestion for you to abandon the item could translate to they are WAITING to see if you would, and that entails another waiting period of say, 30 days?

If I were you I would go back and hand them my declaration in person, make sure A) to omit the e-cig on the list and B) to tell them loud and clear that you don't want the e-cig now that you know it's illegal - and see what they'd have to say? It could be that just what they need in order NOT to fine you,  so now the ball is in your court?

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

It also does this when the system is down which does happen. Have we had any reports of successful online reporting in say the past week?

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I just did mine this morning, Unsuccessfully (even though I had been able to access past records and reported here on this thread earlier on.)

I went throught first page (arrival card info,) second page (address info) and when getting to third page to confirm all data was correct, after checking ("I accept) and verifying the accuracy of all data for a zillion time  I clicked submit, the whole thing went poof, all data was wiped out. I clicked back to previous pages, they were also blanked out.

When I tried to start again from scratch, I got the message of death when trying to get past the first page. I switched to another browser, same result. The only thing I can think of is I entered a new phone number this time, so is it a worthwhile reason I have to go report in person?  I can only hope that as Sheryl mentioned, it happened because the system was down. I am going to try again tomorrow, last day remaining on my time window.

On 6/10/2018 at 4:29 PM, CMsojourner said:

Just tested the link https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn90online/online/tm47/TM47Action.do?cmd=acceptTerm  and was able to not only access Immigration's online reporting menu, but it also appears they have fixed the bug when using Nationality + passport + DoB to view one's previous report history (second menu item - "Check the status of your application"). The notification reporting option (blue menu item) also opened when I clicked it. So my guess is that it's working now (for some) if it hadn't been before. 

Thank you for this tip, a lifesaver for me. I ran into the same problem of getting past the first page of the website (the "accept" button is greyed out, so your only choice is "decline"). 

Recently my hard disk crashed and as it happened I had not printed out the next-appointment notice when I last reported on line, hence I was left in semi-darkness as when to report next. Luckily "they have fixed the bug when using Nationality + passport + DoB to view one's previous report history (second menu item - "Check the status of your application")" so I was able to access all my past records. My guess was almost way off, but not critically, as there are now only two days left on my report window (phew, otherwise another dreaded trip to ChaengWattana, no matter of its recent make-over as a Chatujak market setting...) 

Lesson learned: always back up your data, it only takes a click or two

On 6/3/2018 at 8:04 PM, ArnonK said:

Maybe they wouldn't?

I think you're right: they wouldn't fix it.

Therefore arm-twisting tactics are required. I carried out my planned attack on Sunday. I talked to the manager, he did a lot of running around literally speaking, even bringing the help guy from Saturday to whom I said, as  promised I did what you told me to do, putting the sim into a friends (in this case myself) iphone (old iphone 4 in my antique phone collection) and still the ads keep coming and I think it's time you gave me a new sim, new phone number or my money back. The help staff retreated respectfully, his role was done. So the manager did some more running around and came back with a new sim and said, how about try this one out for one week and see if you still got ads coming in, if so then it's your hardware.

He just said the magic word, "hardware." So I let him have it, my knowledge accumulated from input I received so far on this thread (mostly from mtls2005): no, it's not my phone or whatever phone, windows phone or iphone. It's the number you sold to me, a bad one that has been recycled,  you sold me a bad product and would not exchange for a good one, how many times have I come here already, let's count, I ticked my fingers, thu fri sat and today sunday, 4 times, how many more visits you're gonna make me come next week, another 10 or 20? what kind of customer services is this? If you don't want to make an exchange, I want my money back so I can buy from another store.

That's settled it. Even though the manager was still running back and forth a whole lot more, I think I spent roughly 90 minutes in there, seems like the time spent to watch a whole movie. But I came away with a new sims, it's been more than 24 hours, and I haven't received a single ad sms.

2 minutes ago, ArnonK said:

I had similar problems with both TRUE and DTAC. In both cases, I visited the Service stations of those Providers and ordered them to disable those SCAM-SMS's immediately. I also offered them to report any more incoming 'Promotion' SMS's to the NTBC with filing a complaint against the Service Providers. 

 

Result: Done directly and since I didn't receive any other SMSs as those from real private senders, NOT any Promotion SMS anymore and that includes those for the Service Provider too.

 

That said, I would suggest entering a Service Station of AIS and do the same I did with TRUE and DTAC!

I did that 3 times already, Thu, Fri and yesterday Sat. The shop I go to it's a big AIS shop, not one of those telwiz kiosks, and I've been served by the staff at their service stations, still that didn't lick the problem. So maybe I need to go to a bigger shop? My question is if it's that pretty straigtforward, how come they couldn't fix it?