pitrevie

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I never mentioned people from outside the EU using the N.H.S. As I thought this was a thread related to the so- called E.U.

 

I repeat, the U.K. payes other E.U. countries £670,000,000 for medical treatment to U.K. citizens. While the E.U. countries only pay £50,000,000 to the U.K. for treatment to their citizens by the N.H.S. For this I do not solely blame the E.U. Countries. The blame primarily lies with the British government and the overpaid administrators in the N.H.S. Who fail to bill these countries.

 

Yes but as I pointed out the greater burden on the NHS is from outside the EU just like the greater burden on immigration is from outside the EU. There we are not hamstrung by EU regulations or reciprocall agreements (although there are some) but yet your focus always is on the lesser problem because its EU related.

10 hours ago, nontabury said:

The U.K sacrificed the British fishing industry in order to gain acceptance to the E.E.C. Is this the E.U' s fault? No I think the blame for that decision lays with the U.K politicians. Likewise how come that Germany and others manage to skirt the rules regarding energy. Again the blame probably lays with weak British politicians.

 Exactly the same regarding  E.U countries billing the U.K for £670 million of medical treatment to British citizens, while the UK only claims back £50 million.

 

 

This is from a recent investigation into health tourism published in 2015

Gross costs to the NHS for the wider group (excluding the 'deliberate' health tourists) have been estimated by the same report as:
£260 million per year for visitors and non-permanent residents from the European Economic Area (EEA) to England
£1,400 million per year for visitors and temporary migrants from outside the EEA to England, and irregular migrants
£95 million per year for English expats living abroad.

Tell me how does withdrawing from the EU get anywhere near recovering the far greater sum from those health visitors that use the NHS from outside the EEA,

Its very much like the immigration figure far more people were coming from outside the EU to the UK  over which we have total control.

As for fishing perhaps you could take that up with Farage who is on the Fisheries committee in the EU Parliament. What a pity he hasn't bothered to earn his money as an MEP and attend the fisheries committee.

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're quite right, there are so many pointless/biased links on this thread that I rarely bother reading them any more .

 

For the sake of those of us who are fed-up with carefully reading every link, I'd be very grateful if you would provide a summary outlining how each link proves that Nontanbury's list was incorrect.  It makes it far easier to then decide which links to read.

Really and yet the Nontabury list contains not one link to indicate its validity or not but it falls to me to prove that any each, or every one is incorrect. I always thought that it was incumbent on the person making the claims to provide the evidence. 

However the list contain some very straightforward statements. 

"UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.."

Dont forget Mr Wong will soon own a nuclear power station in the UK. Apparently its bad to have nationalized state companies owning anything in the UK so we allow a communist state owned enterprise to own them instead.

He could also have added Rolls Royce cars sold to the Germans and many more besides

Apparently this is somehow the result of us being in the EU that British companies were sold to foreigners. For some reason you don't see this being repeated on this scale by the other members of the EU. As I said previously obviously us Brits are in a different EU and are being forced by the EU Mark 1 into selling off our assets.

Simple question for everyone, During the 80's our family silver was sold off to the public. British Gas etc and we were told the new owners were going to be Syd.

1. How many forums members bought shares in these sell offs of state assets?

2. How many people still have the shares?

3. How many people sold them off immediately for a quick profit?

The answer to Q3 will tell you who is responsible for many of these British companies now being in Foreign hands.

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

In which case counter at least a few of the items on Nontanbury's list - rather than just dismissing it with a glib 'google it' comment.

 

Edit - Even better, come out with a list of EU grants given to German companies to move their workforce elsewhere.

I provided a link to a site which showed that several of the claims to have had EU grants were bogus. In fact the one that set off the alarm bells was Dyson it just didn't seem logical for the EU to provide a grant to move jobs from an EU country to a non EU country and in fact I cannot find any evidence that they ever did. If you bothered to check the link you would see that several of the other claims attributed to the EU are bogus.

So I never used a glib google it and if you bothered to read the reply you would see that I have in fact provided the link.

27 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Not keen on the "That is weak even for you" for obvious reasons , but it cheered me up after getting involved in other threads that were making me seriously bad tempered .

 

Surely it would have been more convincing to produce a similar list (to Nontanbury's) as to the EU grants provided to move business out of Germany?

The list fell apart almost at the first instance of googling it. For some reason our manufacturing base is going downhill and Germany's is going in the other direction and of course the blame lies with the EU. I don't think there is anything more to add to that.

2 hours ago, maximillian said:

Wishing Trump would tell her what I am thinking of her. He can afford it.

 

But seriously, the Merkels and Schulzes are made of the very same mud. Another big coalition under Merkel or Schulz; what difference does it make ?

Forget elections; it's time for voting with feet and fists.

Yeah the policy the Germans once adopted and it worked out rather well for them.

34 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree about Germany being in a different EU, but could well be wrong and so it would be interesting to see a similar list for the EU grants given to move business from Germany.

That is weak even for you, Germany are governed by the same rules as the UK. Just face up to the fact that Germany since the war has managed its economy a lot better than us and stop blaming the EU for our dreadful economic performance. Who are you going to blame 5 years from now?

2 hours ago, bannork said:

But the Brexiteers said the EU was falling apart and the UK would not be alone for long.Apart from France, Merkel's party did well in local elections recently and it looks like she's heading for another victory later in the year. 

Yep I think this is a big disappointment for Brexiters who were hoping that France would follow us down the rabbit hole and the whole EU would implode. Who the hell are we going to blame 5 years from now. The EU will still be there contrary to predictions and ifs its doing much better oh dear, better not think of that.

30 minutes ago, nontabury said:

People have correctly pointed out that the UK is now devoid of it's manufacturing industry. Others ask where does the large British contributions go.

 

This is a great post, detailing the absurdity of remaining in the EU, we currently have the Lib Dums advocating to stay in and Labour all over the place on Brexit.

This is why we are leaving. Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
 

Also you will find that many on your list are just not true.

http://ilovetheeu.co.uk/trade/no-the-eu-does-not-fund-companies-to-move-jobs-out-of-the-uk/

12 minutes ago, nontabury said:

People have correctly pointed out that the UK is now devoid of it's manufacturing industry. Others ask where does the large British contributions go.

 

This is a great post, detailing the absurdity of remaining in the EU, we currently have the Lib Dums advocating to stay in and Labour all over the place on Brexit.

This is why we are leaving. Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
 

Quite an amazing list and yet somehow  German industry grows and thrives maybe they are in a different EU.

Just now, Khun Han said:

 

The reason why the gamebird is on so many posters' ignore lists is because he is incabable of civil debate .

"he is incabable of civil debate " That is so funny coming from you.

44 minutes ago, tomwct said:

I agree! You cannot believe what the media puts out these days. Lets wait for the French People to decide. Do they want to

continue with the same people in the Swamp or try something new and drain the Swamp? I think the majority of the French

want change and safety over No Changes!

I am sure they will be looking at the USA and noting how successful the draining the swamp operation has been going there.

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Seriously??

 

I know you can do better than this pointless comment.

That is what it amounts to each time. Its their fault they started it, just look at the reply from Khun Han.

27 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree, but in this case its entirely the fault of EU politicians for continually stating (and increasing....) the amount the UK must pay to leave....

 

Only May can 'win' when the eventual figure is far lower - not the EU politicians making up these numbers!

Yes I know its the fault of the EU politicians apparently it always is. Heaven forbid that there should be any criticism of any UK politicians least of all the PM.

9 minutes ago, Ulic said:

The Fema- Nazi versus the Gigolo. Although polls show a clear one sided election result the polls lately have made every call incorrectly. We shall see what comes to pass. We do live in interesting times.

Yes the polls have indicated a very convincing win for TM in the UK election one can only dream of a miracle but I think Macron is in just like TM.

38 minutes ago, Naam said:

utmost cheap and ridiculous argument. you can do better.

Sadly I don't think so this is a guy who tries to adopt a superior moral attitude to others on this forum regarding name calling and then that comes out and not for the first time.

10 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Europe is saturated with small scale supermarkets. Places like Spain and Poland carry out protectionism regardless of EU directives so any German company leaving the UK is lost revenue. there are no available slots in the EU countries for them to re establish the lost income stream. You do not have to be a brain surgeon to work that out (although some people could do with some). Aldi and Lidl moving is day dreaming, they will simply go on like anyone else. If there were greener pastures in the EU they would already have exploited them. Duh. Next time anyone goes to Aldi or Lidl, have a look at how much locally resourced produce they have....nearly all from Germany and other EU countries..More EU imports into the UK.

 

Looking at the 100 billion Euros. It's quiet easy to see why they want it. Over the next 10 years, the UK would have paid in some 100 Billion Euros in net contributions to the EU social club. This takes into account any rebate or hand back of our own money we get. Now countries like Germany and France will have to stump up the lions share of it and other countries like Ireland will no longer benefit and have to pay in.

 

Hard Brexit is looking very attractive.

Yeah it sounds all so easy doesn't it what have we got to lose.

It reminds me of that old weather forecast.

Fog covers most of Europe, the continent is isolated.

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm still not sure what you are saying.

 

Do you think EU negotiators will say nothing (other than snippets that they believe will benefit them) - or that they will report everything to the EU parliament (and consequently the media) during negotiations?

well I thought the quote said it all, "so documents must be published."

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

I'm missing something here obviously.

 

Do you seriously believe that the EU negotiators will be talking about ongoing negotiations once talks start in earnest?  Or do you think they will play their cards close to their hand until a final agreement (or no agreement) is reached?

Unlike some on here who seem to know exactly what we owe or not etc as the case may be,  I have no idea. However this statement seems to suggest there is no chance of them remaining confidential.

May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process. Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.

Also I think both sides will leak as and when they see it to their advantage.

However the more it is in the open the better, lets all see who is being unreasonable and obstructive what is there to object about that?

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"If that is the case why would the opposite side in those negotiations not want the same confidentiality. Instead they will be keeping their Parliament informed of any progress and seeking their approval. "

 

Reminds me of the old quip 'if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you'.....

 

I doubt you genuinely believe that the EU negotiators will be talking much about negotiations once serious negotiations start, in the same way UK negotiators will be keeping mostly quiet.  Obviously, both sides will release snippets of information if they think it will support their 'cause'.

Well it appears so, they have to get the agreement of the EU Parliament whereas May doesn't have the same constraints with her majority she will push any agreement or lack of one through Parliament with us being none the wiser how we reached that position. However I can see that we have a lot of supporters here of Sir Humphrey Appleby

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

Don't take my word on not showing your hand during negotiations. It is one of the most basic fundamentals in negotiating.

 

The following link cannot be accused of being biased towards any side.

 

https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/when-not-to-show-your-hand/

Well since the other side will be informing the EU Parliament whose agreement they need before they can finalise a deal its somewhat academic.

We will be able to rely on the EU side to see exactly who is being obstructive or unreasonable what more could we ask for.

I just think its hilarious that its the Europeans that want everything out in the open and above board and its the UK that wants it all kept in the dark.

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

The EU have two issues. They have to report to 27 countries about what is happening and they have no interest in the UK getting a good deal.

 

The best way to do this is to keep on drip feeding reports to the media in the hope that we will simply give up and go away. They feel that the blame will be on the UK and Europe will go it's merry way without us.

 

Considering that it is accepted that countries like Germany, Poland and Spain will suffer far more than us, this is rather self defeating.

 

Just shows you how amateurish the EU heads are.

Well the more its out in the open the better then we can see who is being obstructive, unreasonable and amateurish. Why keep it behind closed doors until its all over. I seem to recall from my time in the forces this was related in some way to growing mushrooms

8 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Who is doing the leaking???

 

Do not forget we have an election in 36 days.

 

Brussels trying to scare the British electorate to vote against the Tory's and a hard brexit or Tory's trying to get the electorate anti Europe and voting for Maggie May???

Nothing to do with the negotiations it will be many months after the election before we know what is happening so I don't see how that is going to affect the election.

However lets know which side is doing what and being obstructive and unreasonable what on earth are you afraid of. If the EU can keep their side informed why cant we?

24 minutes ago, Flustered said:

You have obviously never been involved in negotiating large contracts.

 

You do not keep on drip feeding the current state of affairs for all to see that makes it impossible for the negotiating team to do their job properly.  Negotiations take place behind closed doors, the teams being briefed on their remit and the final results are then submitted for approval by those in charge.

 

TM is doing this in a professional and correct manner unlike the amateurs in Brussels who are making a mockery of the process.

 

Brussels are out to destroy these talks before they even get underway just to warn off any other country who wants to take back it's sovereign rights.

If that is the case why would the opposite side in those negotiations not want the same confidentiality. Instead they will be keeping their Parliament informed of any progress and seeking their approval. 

We are not talking about a commercial contract which might be leaked to interested competing third parties there are only two parties to this what is there to be secretive about. Lets hear about much we will have to pay if anything what so secretive about that. If Brussels reject some position put forward by the UK government lets know about it what is there to be afraid of having these negotiations put to the democratic UK Parliament if the EU can put it to their undemocratic Parliament.

That way we can see who is being obstructive or trying to destroy these talks Strange that you don't think so.