aromsia

Update, if anyone cares:

All 4 missing have been found amongst the dead.

We all care and i personally pass on my condolences.

With sympathy,

Rick

Yes we do Dissolution - we do care indeed. God Bless you, your brother and your family.

The only way I know how to help is to fight back - and to do it now. Things get shuffled under the rug while people grieve..that's why it's critical for those of us who were lucky enough not to lose loved ones stay on top of this. Flush out the people trying to hide or profit from this tragedy right now - whilte the clock ticks - while the police dither - and before various special interests can twist the thai media with rubbish. The more we shake the tree here and elsewhere the harder it is for the thai media, police, courts, hi-so families and other 'interested' parties to spout and publish nonesense - because it's already been debated and discounted.

There are no gaurantees - but it's better than silence.

Somkiat later told the press that it was his first visit to Lampang and the objective was to meet and exchange views with PAD supporters. He also planned to visit PAD supporters in Tak province's Mae Sot district. The Democrat MP cum PAD co-leader soon left driving a white car with no licence plate.

Nation - Protestors cross swords

From the above it really looks as though Somkiat has forgotten he is a Democrat, he is visiting PAD supporters.

The whole issue of his visit is ahead of the by elections in Lampang. I believe it is the Democrat party standing in these and not the PAD party.

The lack of any delineation between the two means it becomes hard for the Democrats to have any credibility with these issues. He could of course be misquoted but maybe PAD/ Democrat alliance is so obvious that no one is bothering to distinguish any longer.

They never had any credibility before either. It's a sign they just don't care what anyone else thinks about the connection between the two. Remember Abhisit saying he was sorry the airport blockade "HAD" to happen? It was apparent even then.

You are correct though, their arrogance and flagrance is just going to make their opponents (the majority?) hate them even more. But when big brother (the military and hundreds of corrupt oligarch families) is standing behind the bully, he is free to stick out his tongue at anyone he likes.

However, one day - and that day will come - the bully will be walking down a dark alley alone..and from the shadows step the vengeful. As they say, vengeance is a dish best served cold.

All these guys are trying to dodge responsibility of course. But the police (not the courts - though possibly both) in my view are where a very serious investigation needs to happen. Whilst it sounds like the police are dilligently trying to keep a nightclub closed - their reasons for doing so aren't clear. If it was because of safety violations then full marks to them. But that's not the reasons given - they are trying to calim the club was in a non-zoned area, or other excuses - which the court dismissed and with some scorn for the police.

So it seems the police are trying to show the owners in 2004 and again in 2007 that they can make life difficult for them. Was this an attempt to extract a higher tea-money fee from the owners? These local hi-so owners, not to be out-'faced' by the cops, thought they had the last laugh on Thong Lor police when they get an injunction - a sort of middle finger to the cops who want the tea-money.

Then tragedy strikes. The cops take days to 'locate' and allegedly even talk to the owners. Think so? If this had been an on-going piss-fight between the hi-so young owners and the corrupt police is this the latest chapter in that fight to get the cash?

It's not off-topic, it's not political, but it's often the way Thailand works, correct?

Okay, well come on now, Plus. Are you saying that the 'hallowed halls' don't jump to the master of the day? The master of TODAY? Or yesterday or whenever?

If this were true, surely he would not have been found guilty of anything, when his nominee-government was in power ?

As you sooo very well know, but like to avoid...The establishment calls the shots here - and the establishment and their military enforcers made it crystal clear to all arms of the government and executive branches in Spetember 2006 that Thaksin was persona non grata. The re-election of Thaksin's friends embarrassed the military, but that's about all. Everyone else still knew which way the wind was blowing - and of course it was safer to stay upwind of the gunpowder. The collapse of democracy by use of all arms of the bureaucracy, courts, military, etc was predicatable. Populism was to be put down at all costs. There is a clear pattern of this in recent Thai history.

There can't be anyone left in Thailand or the world who doesn't understand this by now - Thailand is not a democratic nation - period.

Nope - in my view is was a couched atempt to point out the whole thai political scene could go pear-shaped and get rough. The rest was window dressing.

Personally, I don't see it going violent - but who knows. That's why I said perhaps they 'know' something we don't..

Well even some farangs here are getting as agitated as the Thais over the loss of revenue. Look - I hope your business does well in 09 ok? I certainly have no reason to wish you ill-will in feeding your family.

Happy New Year.

Okay, well come on now, Plus. Are you saying that the 'hallowed halls' don't jump to the master of the day? The master of TODAY? Or yesterday or whenever?

Surely you would agree that the same hallowed halls and gowns let Thaksin walk away from serious corruption charges regarding his driver and maids' share ownership.

So let's not go getting all 'overly-deferential' now ok? Cause that's really funny..

They mean for him to fight the other charges which are still being considered.

Problem for Thaksin is that he would have to fight the remaining charges from prison (at least he'd be close to his lawyers) having already been convicted on one charge requiring a prison sentence. The remaining charges would likely see Thaksin remain in jail for much longer than the 2 years he currently faces. Also there would be the loss of face involved with the public transfer of Thaksin between the jail and the court which could backfire and drum up support for Thaksin if he plays the victim.

I agree with the last sentence particularly.. It's always been my view that the establishment does not want Thaksin back here. It's just easier for the party of old-family money to return to the status quo of extended family business dealings if Thaksin is kept out of sight. Problem is he keeps opening his mouth. It's a game that's being played by these two sides. But they are both running out of wild cards..Thaksin faster than the rest of them of course.

If he names the names that keps hinting on (one of his wild cards), then so what? It just confirms what everyone had pretty much known about who was behind it. If he plays the other one and gives his view about why they launched the coup and then the silent coup, that could be quite explosive. It's probably why they haven't canceled his regular passport.

Even so, I think he's probably finished - and there is no possibility of his return to Thailand or politics for the foreseeable future. But 10 or 15 years from now?

Another thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Couple-Arres...87.html&hl=

US Couple Arrested In Bangkok Film Festival Graft Probe

Thanks.

It is a technicality for some experts to find out the cause, but primarily those responsible should be brought to justice - operating 4 years without a proper license would mean this place shouldn't be open in the first place so this tragedy would never happened!

Owner, proprietors and the lawenforcement.....

The police come under the control of the Interior Ministry. The latter has announced it will pay the medical costs of the survivors...No culpability admitted...(in the UK, they call this sort of thing "ex-gratia payments" as I recall..)

news and comment about this tragedy is all over the worlds press , especially the asian press.

the fact that thailands precious image is in danger of being tarnished even further is the one thing that will spur the authorities to take some action.

thailands international image is everything to them and hopefully the international press will follow up developments , or non developments , and keep this story in the news.

only then will the authorities take action against those that are responsible for the state of affairs that led to this tragedy.

the thong lor police , the courts and the owners should all be brought to book over this.

if this government has any balls then it will take them on , but with "vested interests" spreading like a cancer through all sections of thai society , it will be difficult for real action to be taken. if it takes 5 years for the courts to sort out a licence for one club , just how long will it take to gather concrete evidence and prosecute the powerful officials who ultimately are responsible for the state of affairs that leads to events like this taking place.

compromise , forgiveness , mutual backscratching , favours and cosmetic adjustments are the way things are handled here.

it will take a complete overhaul of the way power is wielded here before public interest is considered more important than the interests of all the nasty little fiefdoms that control society here.

to those that say this tragedy is not about politics , i would say you are taking a very blinkered view , and a very thai view of it.

the sort of view you get with your head deep in the sand , under the carpet , and dare i say it , up your a-se.

Well said. But other people have different agendas as we know..that's why they like to stick to condolences. As for the Chinese benevolence ($500,000) for the victims, I find that interesting. My guess is that people still remember the exploding "Chinese" teargas cannisters.

If the fireworks were faulty - and remember, TIT - a benign "culprit" may well be sought to neatly tie things up a week or two from now... and if the fireworks are frm "China" well that country could face yet more criticism of its products (justified or not) at a time when it really doesn't need or want that.

Yes, I don't get it either.

I mean, whatever cynical view I may have of this judgement, motivations, how it was reached, etc. I just don't understand how Thaksin is supposed to come back and 'fight' the charges. He has no avenue to fight the charges does he? He was found guilty - the appeal route is too late (if there ever was one), he fled the country, etc, etc.

If he comes back he goes to prison - end of story - right? How could he come back and 'fight' anything?

He could fight for one of the highly-prized corner spots in the 20-man prison cell.

Sriracha John - in your footnote you refer to the TAT Governor - I guess this is the one that was involved in the criminal proceedings in the US over an American couple who allegeldy gave her kickbacks? What has happened with that case and with this Thai woman?

I think the point is, all the other cases against Thaksin are being delayed, by his failure to show up in court ? And those are the charges which he is being urged to face up to.

Personally I doubt that he will come, the trauma of having been found guilty in the one case, will no doubt have come as a great shock, to someone who believes that poo-yais are never to be found guilty of anything. The demand for a pardon, before he returns, supports this IMHO.

Yes..but being found guilty is one thing. Being sentenced to a prison term is another - that's the real shock for a Thai Pooyai. As you know, none of these guys ever go to jail, Dems, TRT, etc. I don't think he has any recuourse on that sentence, does he? If he sets foot here it's straight to the slammer right? Who in their right mind would come back to face that?

No - this thing about negotiating through his associates is all nonsense - it's just to make it look like they are trying to 'heal the divisions' in society and make Abhisit out to be Mr Jaidee.

To the OP. Don't stop your NI contributions.

Excellent advice. As for timing, I'd wait a year or so before coming here. But maybe that's overly cautious..

What I did raise an eyebrow over was the reference to the 'dynamic' political climate. Interesting. I wonder what they're expecting..

there were demos just before new year and expected to continue in new year. There might be army on the streets sometimes later on - not only DoS knows it

Yes, I know. But I thought all the rhetoric (maybe wishful propoganda) in the newspapers points toward an angry but resigned population that has decided it must now accept the will of the military/bureaucractic backed minority and just move on.

We'll see I guess.

Not only are places closing, but people are clearly feeling the pinch. My friend had a run in with one of those tourist survey people outside Robinsons. "FXXX you" she shouted when he refused the survey. Great that'll bring the tourists back in droves. Then there was the 'hostess' who rounded of some guests for not spending enough. Just makes matters worse.

The thing is even when the going is good Thais manage to foul up, so who knows what's going to happen now?

Interesting - I had a similar experience in lower Suk the other day. I was walking through the alleyway that connects Soi 5 and 7 (coming from Foodland) carrying my shopping. I had the usual 'massage sir' offers by a couple of the women...and when I didn't respond I got a response of "thanks for smiling". Don't think I was - just doing the usual ignore thing - not huffy or pushy - just normal.

Doesn't mean people are getting nasty - but maybe frustrated as the number of tourists is really, really down - and so is the income of the massage ladies, etc. I was at the Pullman Hotel the other day (this is the newish place attached to the King Power Mall off Pahaythai) and the concierge told me they have only 20% occupancy. He said it should be more than 80% at this time of year.

For those who've lived here several years and remember the slow recovery from 1997, you'll also remember how new businesses would seem to open and then collapse within 4-6 months on a regular basis. If what (we think) is coming this year does actually materialize, then this could be one of the worst years in living memory for the average Thai - and everyone else.

Yes, I don't get it either.

I mean, whatever cynical view I may have of this judgement, motivations, how it was reached, etc. I just don't understand how Thaksin is supposed to come back and 'fight' the charges. He has no avenue to fight the charges does he? He was found guilty - the appeal route is too late (if there ever was one), he fled the country, etc, etc.

If he comes back he goes to prison - end of story - right? How could he come back and 'fight' anything?

I think it is a perfectly reasonable reminder. I agree it should also mention the carnage on the roads - and to use extreme caution when driving during the New Year long weekend.

What I did raise an eyebrow over was the reference to the 'dynamic' political climate. Interesting. I wonder what they're expecting..

Hi Ayn - you're back again. Agenda?

Is it so difficult to find an owner of a nightclub and get him in for questioning?

What makes you think they haven't found him? Just like "THEY" didn't freeze Thaksin's assets for several weeks after seizing power from a majority elected Government by force of arms. Now why do you suppose that is?

I agree exactly. You stated before that maybe "they can't ignore this one". The lack of activity in getting the owner into a cop shop and the slow drip drop of leaking of the offence of allowing minors into the club makes me feel that this is another typical cover up to protect the owner and whoever he has in his pocket.

As licensee he should be the first one in, not apparently waiting to interview employees as a matter of procedure. His name is presumably on the license, so all the bucks stop with him. But as if by magic he is unavailable by cellphone so as yet isn't able to attend a police station.

As it pertains to the fire, the under age charge is meant to keep the owners in the country while authorities go over videos, eye witness reports and forensic evidence. There is no rush to haul these guys in, just keep them close while everything is sorted out. After all, let's face it, the damage is already done. In time we can expect both civil and criminal court cases to be filed over fire safety issues.

Whoever wins the Bangkok Governor election will follow this one to conclusion as it is in their backyard. Politically this will be too important for the next Bangkok Governor to do anything else.

Of course that is the polite way of doing things. But unfortunately, as of yet, they haven't even officially found him. So, until then, I think the only thing to assume is that he is in Poipet as of 6am this morning. Sorry for being cynical, but, establishing officially where he is should be a rush issue.

Perhaps. But I'll bet he's doing a secret deal with the authorities as we write Thai at Heart. If he's rich and influential - he will NEVER go to prison in Thailand. Someone else will do that for him. The sickening part is that people who deserve the least, get the most, in cases like this (the 'deal' makers). Really, really, sickening, no?

Think of it this way...the guy who is on the ropes cause his bar burns down (his fault or not - the police have him by the collar), so he sweats out an under-table deal that lets him walk away - someone else will take the fall. He avoids a 20-guy-to-a-cell prison. But it's probably around 100,000 USD to walk - given the publicity. THEN - some cop or other hi-so authority figure uses that cash to send his own little brats to some international school on that ill-gotten money. Makes me want to p+uke right here and now at the thought of it. I'd sure like to think my negative thoughts are misplaced. But you'd have to be a real optimist with a good argument to make me feel better about this..

So, again, where is he?

There's so much and so many to blame here - so I'll take my own first:

I should rant more often. Maybe it makes no difference - or maybe it does. But allowing the corrupt present system to get away with it? As much my fault as any. Why don't I (as a 'pushy' farang) walk into the safety inspector's office and make a big stink about some place? Becuase I'll be hated for it.. And the outcome will be superficial - I know it - so do others. But that doesn't let me off the hook.

As for the others - Thai and foreign businesspeople here - those of you who paid bribes to get a safety certificate, etc, man do you have some praying to do.

If I was a parent of one of those kids who died, and realized I too was to blame for similar offences in a place that I owned by bribing an official. I think it would be too much to bear.

Buddha knows that what goes around comes around. So do the true believers - and not those business people who wear the right shirts and the right pins of their silk shirts and are just Buddha 'pretenders'. All the money in the world can't buy them salvation - or salvage a guilty soul.

May all Gods shine a light into those who've lost - and forgive those of us who should have done more.

Just last year in September 2007, in Bangkok, The Mandarin Hotel caught fire and 16 foreign tourists were injured. Nobody died. The police stated there was no functioning sprinkler system and this fact was also pointed out by the 400 tourists who were evacuated from the hotel. Guests also complained there was no fire alarm and no evacuation procedure. No staff were on hand to instruct guests. There was no emergency lighting or floor lights to show emergency exits. In the aftermath of the fire, management declined to make any comment and could not be contacted No charges were ever pressed against the hotel owners or management. I could add no lessons were learned by the BMA or police. All sound familiar?

Yes it just never ends here does it? The Mandarin, the Bangkok Waterslide, the Route 66, the Mecedes Benz kid who deliberately ran down passengers at a bus stop -cause he was mad at a bus driver (some say a connection to the Landmark Hotel clan - unconfirmed - why never confirmed? TIT), the Klong Toey fires and now the Santika.

Now can anyone piece together the parts of this puzzle that add up to: "F+ck Yo+ if you're not a "hi-so Thai" - your death is wortheless...and we don't need to do anything about it"??

I still think this one - the Santika - is going to cause problems for the upper classes. They can't ignore this one.

Let's see what happens. Lucky you - out of the mix -- just in time, pal. Oh and how ironic - wasn't it something to do with fire trucks? Sh+te.

is jonathan head the journalist accused by a police colonel of lesse majeste ?

Yes, the same guy. Although that issue seems to have gone away for now.

Apparently not. I read somewhere that he was just charged a third time just a few weeks ago (by the same guy).

I agree with taxexile - I thought his reporting and analysis (still on the BBC Website) was spot-on. And as taxexile points out - it now seems he was indeed correct to raise these things about safety standards and corruption.

Note: I suspect those who take issue with Head's reporting on this horrible event are probably PAD/Demo Party supporters who don't like Head because he's one of the few journalists (other than the Economist and Sing Straits Times) to report on the class divide of red/yellow and the corrupt bureaucracy that profits from the rich families and corporate-patrons who back the PAD. They don't want anyone to stray from the anti-thaksin storyline. Head annoys them.

Well done Andrew Jones and thanks for that comprehensive debrief.

I can't help but wonder if the info sharing here is probably better than the police/fire dept report being gathered. Have any ot the authorities apoken to you? If I was leading th investigation I would be requesting a copy of the video at least.

At the bottom is BBC's latest report - which I think sums up the mood in the aftermath (certainly my own mood - arom). And to those who say that justice will be done, and if something was illegal owners will pay with jail time, I say 'no they won't.' Because this is Thailand and that's not how it works here.

Many will remember the collapse of the water slide here. Remember the owner was going to close it down? Remember the photos of the obvious neglect? Well? Any updates? The way it works here is a quiet discussion with the victim's family - a monetary payoff - the police often mediate (for a cut) and that's the end of it. That's the cold hard truth of it I'm afraid..But in this case, as I said before, these aren't bar girls from Issaan that the owner can't just brush off the deaths with 40 or 50,000 baht to the grieving families (welcome to the realities of class-riddled thailand). This one will prove to be more difficult - but I still don't expect to see anyone of any stature held criminally accountable (except maybe a DJ or club manager, etc), nor should anyone else.

Here's the link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7807202.stm

Have another look - and I didn't say death 'penalty'.