eldar1

I remember that it's pretty difficult to get a passport in burma, to get the best answers he should contact the relevant authorities in phinyama or try the burmese embassy here in bangkok.

The head of the Election Commission of Thailand, Apichart Sukatkannont, is a Democrat. That explains why all TRT/PPP MP's got red cards and were dissolved, while Democrats got away with 1 red card and some yellow cards.

Why Newin got a red card is beyond me. So if Newin got a red card, why can the "Friends of Newin" join the government, but the "Friends of Thaksin" (Samak, Somchai, etc) can't?

The world leaders must be laughing about Thailand by now.

"the friends of newin"is a splinter group of the TRT with about 38 members with Newin as their leader. Only newin had a red card the rest did not, so they were free to join any party they wanted and vote which everway they wanted. Samark and Somchai did join the goverment they were bloody PM's so this statement makes no sense. Samark got kicked out because of conflict of interest charges and somchai went the way of the PPP, all executive members of which were banned for 5 years.

There is only 1 beef with abhisit and it's not even something he did, it's all about how he came to power.

After the previous (free and fair) elections Samark became PM, but he was later disqualified due to conflict of interest laws.

The lower house then elected Somchai, after the whole PAD airport debacle somchai had to step down and PPP was dissolved. PTP was made but some members defected to the democrates, this gave the democrates and their coalition a majority in the house. The lower house then elected Abhisit. The gripe is that abhisit got elected by the lower house without there being a general election before. pretty much the same as somchai, but since he is thaksins boy, the UDD don't have a problem with it.

Someone tell me why Abhisit was able to form a coalition government with Newin, when Newin received a red card for vote buying in the last election?

My memory on it is a bit fuzzy, but i believe it's because newin is not actually part of the government (or any political party) it's just that he has sway over "the friends of newin group" most of which were not banned form politics. The MP's in "the friends of newin group" then switched sides to the democrats.

By the way if this seems a bot dodgy to people, they should bear in mind that newin did the same thing during the initial thaksin election and that this type of things happens all the time in thai politics.

Now its all over you need to sit back and see what the goals were, who won points and who lost them.

Firstly :

Abhisit and the Democrats

Awful performance for the ASEAN summit. Weak, out of control, embarressment, this is enough on its own for him to resign.

Democrats, supported by the Army this is obvious. It now puts meat on the bones that the Army formed the government behind the scenes.

The lack of action against the PAD by the Army and Democrats will be the next hot potato, been mentioned massively in the world media in the last few days

Thaksin

He is now finished, but he also needed to be, it was apparant that there is too much propganda against him, so he needed his final two fingers up, he should go quiet now until he gets his..............pardon what was that noise.

However, as his parting gift he has now put a real downer on tourism and made the governments stimulus plans go down the pan. This will seriously weaken the country and therefore the government (Democrats) will in 6 months get blamed for yet more and more job losses, and pressure that way will mount should they still be in power. He has in effect made the government so much weaker in the mid term and also embaressed them short term. If the short term fails to oust Abhisit, the mid term effects of this action will get him. He has also clearly put into the world media the issues of the Armies links with the PAD/Democrats, the lack of action against the PAD, and many other issues, thats what he takes with him.

Reds

The role of the reds will now change, they will have to spin this now away from Thaksin (which will be done as above) and move the Reds into being purely about Democracy, with no links to Thaksin. As I said earlier maybe its going to be Green shirts now, protesting against the Army violence, the Army inaction against the PAD, the lack of any action against the PAD, for Democracy and for new elections (same again but with no links to Thaksin).

So Abhisit is a loser on all scores. He was in charge for a failed ASEAN summit (after giving his word), he also is now the PM in charge whilst Bangkok burned.

Thaksin loses and also wins, as he has seriously paid back against those who hammered him. He can now drift into being forgotten for now.

Reds will now morph into a new anti government force, just wait. They will come out stronger now, with more "points" to raise to the worlds media.

It still remains the only solution to get the 1997 constitution back and have new elections under it. Until that time this is going to carry on and on, and never end it seems.

Tell me what you would have done in abhisits place at the ASEAN summit ? Keeping in mind that the summit was planned around the time of the somchai government falling, so not hosting it was not an option. Cracked down on the reds as soon as they annouced plans to disrupt the summit? If that would have happend you would be screaming here about how the "Yellows" were allowed to demonstrate but not the reds.

Regarding thaksin

There is no real propaganda against him, most of the accusations against him are pretty much factual (policy corruption, nepotism, cronyism, human rights abuses, electoral fraud, etc) It's just that the UDD convientently never discusses these things. For a man who says he loves the poor, he has caused them a whole lot of problems. From the disruption of the economy (directly through the UDD and indirectly by proxy through PPP), increasing of family debt by 5 times to loss of investor confidence, he has consistently damaged the prospects of the poor rural population of thailand.

The reds are over and done with, thais have been shocked at the violence portrayed by the red movement, so they have lost serious backing. A transformation into a pro-democracy movement is unlikely since the current top and sub top will always be associated with the insurrection of the last 3 days. Only a completely new group could become thailands pro-democracy movement, thing is i don't think it will happen as there is no rich thai willing to fund it. Besides the only thing neccesary for a new election is time, just wait untill abhisits term is up. Following the laws of democracy is democratic aswell.

Why not bring back the 1991 consitution or the 1978 ? that makes just about as much sense as demanding the 1997 constitution. Only reason UDD demands it is because thaksin can't get elected under the 2007 consitution

Guys the woman I know who smsed me yesterday about the fact that they are not allowed to go home today is not picking up the phone my other thai pro-red who went there also don't pick up the phone, actually the phones are plain dead.... EVERYTHING you have seen on TV about the REDs here and there probably was staged to discredit reds, and I can say people that I know NEVER GOT PAID for being there it was their own decision, to stand up for their rights, they were all standing near the goverment house.

Don't you think it was so easy to discredit reds by dressing up other people as reds and allow them to do whatever for a day or 2, to then have rights to wipe the real reds away????

Justy think about it...

Pattaya was waaaay too staged up ( IMHO ) it was made to that ALL who attend the summit would see how BAD are the reds. For this the security allowed reds inside, and if you look at it all from a different angle you will see that all looks strange and really fishy.

No more battery in their mobile? or did they come prepared and took their chargers while rioting?

Local press reporting no clear confirmation of crowd dispersal at the Government House. Mr. Veera is claiming and end to protests, while another UDD leader, Jattuporn is saying otherwise. There seem to be some conflict of interest going on among the UDD leadership...

Regardless of the reports, I'm hoping this is finally coming to an end. Now bring those PAD leaders to justice for their crimes.

let's hope this gets resolved without any more violence.

Both mobs need to be swiftly be brought to justice, including their financial backers.

Also an inquiry needs to be done about the (non)role of the police in this matter, you can almost argue that they should be charged with dereliction of duty. Some of them if reports are true concerning police joining the reds could potentially be tried for treason.

Never, never, trust the mass media, for a true story.

Please pray tell, where do we get the truth from then?

dee do you have link where it says two protesters ?

i know you did not ask me but here is a link anyway

Nation

Al Jazeera

Bangkok post

Thanks but I am aware of these, I was trying to ascertain whether or not 2 red shirts have been killed as well as Dee is claiming.

Al jazeera and BBC initially reported 2 protesters but have since changed it to 2 civillians

Has anyone noticed that D-Station's website has now gone offline too? Either censored or hijacked. So much for free speech in Thailand.

D-station is not really a news station, it's just propaganda. Although i do agree with you that they should not shut it down.

dee do you have link where it says two protesters ?

i know you did not ask me but here is a link anyway

Nation

Al Jazeera

Bangkok post

I am by no means a PAD supporter nor do I support Thaksin. But I just felt I had to post this...

Let me first say I respect your opinions regardless of whose side you're on. From what I can tell, the general consensus here seems to be anti-red. This is fine, but I'd really like to know where you are getting your information from.

A lot of news organizations seem to be pointing their finger at the pro-Thaksin demonstrators. I'm not saying these people are innocent of any wrong-doing, but I think a lot of what we're hearing is over-exaggerated. Apart from Thaksin interviews on CNN and the BBC, I have not seen a single interview with protesters who have been directly involved in the clashes. Since the Government has been feeding the news media information all day, I think the protesters should be offered a chance to tell their side of the story. Anyone with half a brain will know this is the right and fair thing to do. As of 11pm, most UDD websites have been either blocked or shutdown. Seems to me like the powers that be are trying to hide something...

Has it occurred to any of you, the anti-red-shirt sentiment you're hearing is the result of a clever propaganda campaign orchestrated by the Government? Trust me, this wouldn't be the first time, propaganda has always been utilized whenever there's a political crisis (for as long as I can remember). To be honest, I think news organizations have got themselves so wrapped up in all this, they are unable to be objective much less realize the truth even if it bit them on the ass.

With firm control over the local news media, the amount of propaganda coming from the Government is quite 'appalling'. I'm not one to accuse the Government of lying, but the truth definitely isn't getting out beyond the borders of the Government House. What you are witnessing is just a glimpse of a bigger and gruesome picture. Quite the opposite from what PM Abhisit or Mr. Suthep wants you to see or believe. It's pathetic. I never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm beginning to feel sympathy towards the protesters.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, don't trust everything you read or hear; to put it bluntly, don't be a naive little sh*t. There are both sides to every story, be objective and keep an open mind. No one can cover up the truth -- not the Government, PAD, UDD, or even Thaksin.

Are you joking? The leadership of the UDD has called for attacks on the legitimately elected Prime Minister and the government. Those attacks were carried out in violent fashion. A convicted fugitive is calling for a revolution and is fomenting insurrection against a legal government. Hear their side of the story? fuc_k that. That said, when alltraces of Thaksin, TRT, PPP, PTP have been seperated from the legitimate concerns of the great many peaceful "red" faction, I will be amongst there strongest supporters.

Same here, if the UDD kicks out it's violent members and distances itself completely from thaksin and his cronies, i'll be the first to put on a red shirt (would it be possible to change colours, i don't really look that good in red)

The M16 assault rifle is the key, anybody who know's the weapon would be asking a lot of questions, they are the most leathol of all assault rifles, designed to kill and are very very accurate up to 100m and are seconded only by Sniper rifles.

In other words they could easily take of a person's leg at 100m and not kill them, in a demonstration this would cause an instant panic situation.

AJE in my opinion are the best news channel far better than CNN and BBC who never report the facts from both sides. I guess they were waiting for official statistics on Red death's before printing the 2 civilian casualties which haven't been released as yet. Anyway now AJE have.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pac...5656292843.html

Only the first paragraph of the story talks about the 2 people killed

Two men have been killed in Bangkok as anti-government protesters and soldiers fought battles on the streets of the Thai capital.

-Al Jazeera (link in monkfish's post)

It does not mention that these 2 were killed by UDD members, which i've seen confirmed by 3 sources including an eye witness and a doctor plus the mainstream media. So it seems that AJE does slant their news or at least it does in this case.

What are the names of the UDD who killed the the innocent victims? What weapons were used? Have they been arrested? Is there any proof? etc etc

Are CNN and BBC reporting the same? Do not believe Thai news until it has been confirmed because its mostly propaganda.

They were shot, during the clashes with the market vendors. Asking about names and asking if they have been arrested is asking a bit much

since this happened in an area where even the army does not have full control yet.

Sure thai media slants, but they are not propaganda machines (atleast not the english newspapers), they do report what happens and don't write blatant lies. Anyway this story was twittered from an eyewitness before it hit the newswires and confirmed by a doctor in a hospital close by. So yeah pretty sure that this has happened.

For permit to the blue shirt to flame the red shirt and transform the red in bad guys...i was also there in the moment when the red start to go away...they was quite but some blue started to insult them and start to throw stones and bottle...not in plastic.

Let's assume that this is true and the blue shirts attacked first, does this justify attacking the PM, rioting in the streets ? If you are walking down the street and someone makes a comment about you and smacks you around a bit, does that give you the right to beat your wife later?

To say that the red shirts had no say in the escalation in violence is to say that they are without free will and thus they really can't make any demands can they?

What if someone throw stones in your head? or the head of your wife? We dont know last night who start and for what, so the only real thing is that a 70% of this country want new election dont give to them is wrong.

I think you may have misunderstood the point i was trying to make. It's not about the level of violence, it's that previous violence with someone is no excuse for later violence with someone else.

If 1 fights with 2, it does not give 1 the right to now attack 3

I don't know about new election, but 70% of the people for sure just want the insanity to stop (from both PAD and UDD)

The M16 assault rifle is the key, anybody who know's the weapon would be asking a lot of questions, they are the most leathol of all assault rifles, designed to kill and are very very accurate up to 100m and are seconded only by Sniper rifles.

In other words they could easily take of a person's leg at 100m and not kill them, in a demonstration this would cause an instant panic situation.

AJE in my opinion are the best news channel far better than CNN and BBC who never report the facts from both sides. I guess they were waiting for official statistics on Red death's before printing the 2 civilian casualties which haven't been released as yet. Anyway now AJE have.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pac...5656292843.html

Only the first paragraph of the story talks about the 2 people killed

Two men have been killed in Bangkok as anti-government protesters and soldiers fought battles on the streets of the Thai capital.

-Al Jazeera (link in monkfish's post)

It does not mention that these 2 were killed by UDD members, which i've seen confirmed by 3 sources including an eye witness and a doctor plus the mainstream media. So it seems that AJE does slant their news or at least it does in this case.

Some of the violence aired by the BBC, Aljazeera and the TAN network has been sickening.

I too saw the troops on the BBC bulletin firing level at the crowd and not into the air. Though the reports had been the troops were given live ammo you could not tell if they were firing live ammunition or not, but the inference was that the ammo was live.

I would have thought the water cannon would have been sufficient to drive the protesters back, considering how powerful those jets of water are without the need for use of live ammo.

I've seen those same reports and yes it does look like some of the soldiers are firing straight into the crowd, my only point of contention is that if those were live rounds, wouldn't there be huge amounts of casualties ? The soldiers must have fired 5,000 or more rounds, with that amount of fire power, you'd think that at least 1 or 2 people would have been killed if they fired live ammo

For permit to the blue shirt to flame the red shirt and transform the red in bad guys...i was also there in the moment when the red start to go away...they was quite but some blue started to insult them and start to throw stones and bottle...not in plastic.

Let's assume that this is true and the blue shirts attacked first, does this justify attacking the PM, rioting in the streets ? If you are walking down the street and someone makes a comment about you and smacks you around a bit, does that give you the right to beat your wife later?

To say that the red shirts had no say in the escalation in violence is to say that they are without free will and thus they really can't make any demands can they?

I've been listening to various news sources and talking heads on TV and the western media seems really taken aback that the government used the military to solve the crises using M16's instead of the police with tear gas.

Does anyone have a clear unerstanding as to why the entire police force is nowhere to be seen? When abhisit was attacked, the police did nothing, at asean the police did nothing, when the UDD started rioting in bangkok the police did nothing. It's like there just isn't a police force in thailand.

Secondly any idea on what will happen to the police force now that they have effectively abandoned their post? Should there be a mandate that and and all security matters above traffic tickets be handled by the army since the police are unwilling to do more?

Last point, anyone notice that AJE seems pretty bias towards the UDD? They never mention wrongdoings by the UDD, they even don't mention the 2 that were killed by the UDD. At first they even claimed that the 2 deaths were UDD members themselves. They also cut thaksins interview in such a way that it seems like he's the hero never showing his rambelings that are in the full length interview

Come for the sun, stay for the violence

Damaging few cars or computers can not be compared to a threat of LPG Tanker, or attacks on civilians in their homes, or terrorising cars driving past.

What about storming the control tower of a major international airport with planes still in the sky?

Can that be compared?

Planes were allow to land or were safely diverted to other regional airports.

While fact checking this i ran into this nice statement from UDD which shows their tendency for treason

"One senior DAAD source said the movement would consider any retreat by the government to be a military coup, and immediately launch a counter street offensive against the army"

-from reuters

link

Democrazy is all they asked for - and they got it.

Technically isn't that a PAD supporter ? Still funny pic though

Did the PAD have to face M16's yes or no?

Not that i can recall, then again they never rioted in the streets so there was never any reason for them to be threatened with M16's

Yes they did. Do you remember government attempt at the crack down on them with gas etc.

The difference is PAD did not attack civilians, nor did they break into banks, nor did they send in buses, not did they threaten to blow up LPG Tankers, nor did they physically harm any government member.

They were well organised and controlled and took the gas without responding, which in turn gave them more voice and more power to continue-because they were peaceful.

Ahh yes i forgot about the gas attack incident. Is that maybe why the police did not do anything, they only have those exploding chinese tear gas canisters and nothing else?

Did the PAD have to face M16's yes or no?

Not that i can recall, then again they never rioted in the streets so there was never any reason for them to be threatened with M16's

I don't think thaksin will agree to those terms

personally i would want thaksin to serve his jail time, he committed a crime and the fled the country while on trial.

Thaksin should always be banned from politics (a felony conviction will do that)

Using thaksins frozen money to pay for the damages is a good idea, i doubt there will be any left for him after all is said and done.

I definately agree with monitored elections, it's sad that it has to come to that but it really is necessary. Question is can the UDD accept the results if thaksin is not chosen and can PAD accept the results when he is (by proxy)?

who pays for the PAD protests and the hundreds of billions of lost baht?

The PAD leadership ofcourse

Ohh good so we all agree he is a decent, innocent man who never did anything wrong and really cares about the poor before his own needs. LOL

Ofcourse, he is a most generous and caring man, look at how much he helped his poor class mates of police academy class 6. That's really shows he cares