spidermike007

She was only telling the truth.

I guess I must be a little dense. Please explain how "all people who disagree with my political views should be executed" is in any manner an expression of the truth? This lost soul and her clueless mother got what they earned. No sympathy here. It would be displayed.

Spidermike007

Would be great if Thai Air would start a deeply discounted fare from all destinations to Bangkok starting the first of October. If it was discounted enough all the other airlines would have to match it.

What you are suggesting is that Thai airline be visionary, imaginative, creative, and display good business characteristics and smart marketing. Something we have never seen from this moribund carrier. Being competitive at this juncture would be smart. Will they lower fare in any significant way to boost sales. Unlikely.

Spidermike007

Correct. The need to save face is the demonstration of ones own weakness, on so many levels. Real men do not need to save face. Buck up. Man up. Take responsibility for ones own actions. Saving face is the opposite of this, and it an act of extreme cowardice. I do not want to hear about the cultural aspects of this. When a culture permits a person to be a weakling, in the name of face, something is wrong. Courage my boy. Courage. OWN IT!

By your definition, there are a whole lot of cowards on the TV forum, never wanting to admit that they're wrong in the face of evidence to the contrary. Speaking of, when was the last time that you admitted you were wrong about anything? Hmmmm.

I admit I am wrong all the time. In have absolutely no issue with that. Nor with saying I am sorry, in a heartfelt manner. I consider it to be part of what constitutes being man. What is so hard about admitting one screwed up?

Spidermike007

That's the thing, MIke. I've had plenty of Thais apologize to me for mistakes they've made. I've had Thais apologize to me for mistakes that wasn't even their fault. On the other hand, I've met several farangs who will refuse to admit that they're wrong. About anything.

This face thing that exist in Asia is really beyond the comprehension of most farangs. It's pretty subtle, most of the time. Like when a boss uses only so many words to tell a staff that he screwed up, but plenty of non-verbal communication. An American boss would be more direct. That sort of thing. Most of the examples brought up on this thread has nothing to do with face. Like when a BG GF refuses to admit that she was bonking other guys, even when caught. Or some guy giving wrong directions when asked. Or some waitress taking the wrong order and not admitting it.

It seems like most here are just trying to find reasons to bash on the Thais. This face thing is just a red herring.

Fascinating points. Well taken. I have no interest in bashing on Thais needlessly. These are real beefs I am voicing. I really like the Thai people, for many reasons, and on a lot of levels. They are remarkable. I would enjoy developing a greater understanding of this whole face thing which could not feel more alien or bizarre to me.

Spidermike007

@Spidermike007

I simply do not understand these challenges on here. I, too, admit to screwing up. I, too, apologise profusely. Perhaps, more important, though, is that I learn from those mistakes, something that doesn't happen if you refuse to take responsibility or admit that an error even occurred in the first place. To that extent, it's not simply being man, rather than wimp, but, straightforwardly commonsensical, both for individuals and whole societies.

Thank you. All I am saying is that we are all better off if we are able to admit our faults and move on. It benefits all of society. It benefits all the people around us. Are not harmony and humility aspects of contemporary Thai society that should be promoted? A collective social policy that allows most of society to opt out of facing up to one's weakness appears to be nothing short of an abomination to me. It feels like the opposite of humility. It feels like pure ego, and comes from someplace very strange and bizarre.

Spidermike007

Ok I read now every post here!

But one question , for me still not answered !

Why is it nearly impossible to win a loosing face back?

That kind of people want protect there face , are also that one

That not can handle self criticism !

I have a friend at home very straight man, married Thai wife

20 year come here for more then 40 times!

He says Thais also ignoring our face, he don't care about loosing

There're face policy in Thailand !

He say what he think!

And when airplane change price half our before take off

He. Stand inside the office counter and complaining load

That all can here!

People that want protect there face all the time,

Live in a illusion of lies to themself, and proberbly phosical ill!

This are also the reason why loosing the face people are bull headed , and cannot accept a good meaning advice from others !

Using a signal horn in traffic in other Asian country's , no problem, in Thailand someone can point a gun on you! This fact should aswer all question!

In my opinion it has absolutely nothing to do with the culture itself

It's only a excuse!

Correct. The need to save face is the demonstration of ones own weakness, on so many levels. Real men do not need to save face. Buck up. Man up. Take responsibility for ones own actions. Saving face is the opposite of this, and it an act of extreme cowardice. I do not want to hear about the cultural aspects of this. When a culture permits a person to be a weakling, in the name of face, something is wrong. Courage my boy. Courage. OWN IT!

the only thing wrong is your understanding of how thai society works

My point exactly. Thai society condones weakness when it comes to face. It allows people to avoid manning up, apologizing, facing their weakness, or running away from problems. Thai society allowing it or not, is not the point. It is a weakness. At least that is how I see it.

Spidermike007

If this guy is found guilty here, and the kids were minors, he will be in jail here or in the US. The US have agrements with some foreign countries like Philipines, to deport child sex predators. A very well known CEO from an very big computer company in San Francisco was on the US news in 2000 after his frequent trips to Manila were connected with a 14 years old girl he "bought" there. He still in jail. That kind of agreements between countries probably will stop some people coming to poor countries to commit sexual crimes....

The correct reply would have been that all citizens of the US, are subject to US Law anywhere in the world. So, if Thailand is willing to hand him over, Holder would be thrilled to dispatch a US district attorney to come here to pick him up, with a US Marshall. He will be escorted back to the US, and unless he has $2,000,000 for legal fees, he will spend ten years in a federal prison. No ifs, ands or buts. All Americans are subject to US Law as it pertains to underage sex. Period. And the US pursues these cases very aggressively. Thailand usually cooperates. So, this guy's life is over if the Thais hand him over. The feds need little evidence to get a conviction.

Spidermike007

"OUTSTANDING inventions by Thai women, including one that promises to change the lives of diabetics, have won international recognition."

Now, if they can invent a way to get their lazy boyfriends and husbands to stop drinking, support the children they father and take responsibility in supporting their families, they could be nominated for a Nobel Prize.

Funny. I always like to say Thailand would be nowhere without its women, who are far, far more dynamic than their counterparts, on nearly all levels, except perhaps some sports. Without its women, not sure where this country would be. Though the men pretend to run things, it is the women behind the scenes who are the glue that holds this nation together. When families stop telling their boys how special they are, just because they were born male, perhaps things will chance. But, you have to convince those little boys they are nothing special. I would start by telling my son he is nothing special. His sister is smarter, more capable, and he needs to play catch up to be as special as she is. Study hard, excel at everything you do, show some pride in your work, and maybe you can be as special as your sister some day!

You would have thought Singapore and Pearl Harbor would have taught some people some things but they keep making the same mistakes at underestimating Asian Males.

Those that don't know much about history are doomed to repeat it. Is that how that old saying goes?

I believe pearl harbor was my exact point. Women in Thailand are smarter. Perhaps in Asia? I cannot speak to that. Would women have invaded pearl harbor, or started WWII in the Pacific? I doubt it.

Spidermike007

Personally I would not expect it to change

If people with private taxis don't charge much cheaper

Remember on an island everything is more expensive

The cost of living is higher

The cost of gasoline is higher

Cost of eating is higher

Cost of rent is higher

Which filters down to the street these drivers, owners and so on still have to live here supper families and so on

If you stand around watching the taxi drivers they always get customers depending which stand by they have chosen

Be it green mango on a Saturday night or tescos

So the myth that they don't get business is a myth

They get paid the as if they did it cheaper and if they so a short run that means they go to the back of the cue so they miss the bigger job behind them. The only way round it is to charge a fare price from example from tescos to Chaweng can be 250 or 300 baht as it is short so they can her back to the cue quicker

Then from Tesco to Nathong 500 baht is not too bad considering the distance and they have to drive back then back to the end of the cue

So it is what it is and it is very competitive mainly probably to probably not having restrictions as to how many taxis are aloud on the island

They do make money so why would they change

Would you offer a discount to people to someone who was renting your house for a year and already paying 100 k per month anyway and were due to carry on paying

What would be the point

The point of business is to make money

And with allot of 5 star hotels there is allot of demand for taxis and the customers don't find 500 baht too much

They are mainly for tourists

As most expats either rent a motor bike or buy one or a car

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Not sure if I have ever heard more nonsense. Gas is two baht more. Please do not apologize for the criminals. Next you will start a union for the taxi drivers. Please.

Spidermike007

I think that advocating for the death of those you disagree with might not be part of the original intent of the Miss Universe Pageant.

True that. She appeared to be a fabulously ignorant young woman. And yes, women on that stage should be held to a higher standard. Nothing wrong with that. There is no room for the kind of hate mongering this young tyke engaged in. Kill all people who disagree with me. Sounds a bit more like Stalin, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Alexander the (not so) great, mussolini, and Mao, than a title holder for Miss Universe. I kind of think she reaped what she sowed. If she had spent that time trying to foster understanding, none of this would have happened. She is perhaps the Donald Sterling of Thailand. At least when it comes to wisdom.

Quality speaks. Perhaps if he focused on making really good films, he would not have to jump! Really, does anyone care? Sounds like a spoiled punk, who grew up being told how special he was. So, the first project was supposed to do really well, since it was produced by the "special one". When parents stop telling their boys how special they are, maybe they will mature, and become the men they could have been, had the parents not lied to them. Maybe they will become well rounded people, capable of great things. Maybe they will be able to deal with failure. Failure is not a loss of face. It is just a part of life.

Here we go. All the "all Americans this, all Americans that" statements. As a Brit is winds me up when a Brit is hauled up and we all get tarred with the same brush. I KNOW it will wind up the Americans on here as they all get grouped in together. I know it winds up the Australians on here when the same happens to them, etc, etc

How about we discuss the issue and not the nationality this time round? That kind of conversation is only the domain of the knee-jerkers with nothing to add on the subject.

Very good. Spot on. Who cares what the nationality is? All countries have deviants. If he is guilty, hopefully he will never see the light of day again. The world does not need this insect on it's streets. Molesting children who are getting over being molested? Does that deserve a double sentence? One would think so. What on earth did these kids do to deserve this creep in their lives? Get a life you fool. Pick on people your own age!

Ok I read now every post here!

But one question , for me still not answered !

Why is it nearly impossible to win a loosing face back?

That kind of people want protect there face , are also that one

That not can handle self criticism !

I have a friend at home very straight man, married Thai wife

20 year come here for more then 40 times!

He says Thais also ignoring our face, he don't care about loosing

There're face policy in Thailand !

He say what he think!

And when airplane change price half our before take off

He. Stand inside the office counter and complaining load

That all can here!

People that want protect there face all the time,

Live in a illusion of lies to themself, and proberbly phosical ill!

This are also the reason why loosing the face people are bull headed , and cannot accept a good meaning advice from others !

Using a signal horn in traffic in other Asian country's , no problem, in Thailand someone can point a gun on you! This fact should aswer all question!

In my opinion it has absolutely nothing to do with the culture itself

It's only a excuse!

Correct. The need to save face is the demonstration of ones own weakness, on so many levels. Real men do not need to save face. Buck up. Man up. Take responsibility for ones own actions. Saving face is the opposite of this, and it an act of extreme cowardice. I do not want to hear about the cultural aspects of this. When a culture permits a person to be a weakling, in the name of face, something is wrong. Courage my boy. Courage. OWN IT!

"OUTSTANDING inventions by Thai women, including one that promises to change the lives of diabetics, have won international recognition."

Now, if they can invent a way to get their lazy boyfriends and husbands to stop drinking, support the children they father and take responsibility in supporting their families, they could be nominated for a Nobel Prize.

Funny. I always like to say Thailand would be nowhere without its women, who are far, far more dynamic than their counterparts, on nearly all levels, except perhaps some sports. Without its women, not sure where this country would be. Though the men pretend to run things, it is the women behind the scenes who are the glue that holds this nation together. When families stop telling their boys how special they are, just because they were born male, perhaps things will chance. But, you have to convince those little boys they are nothing special. I would start by telling my son he is nothing special. His sister is smarter, more capable, and he needs to play catch up to be as special as she is. Study hard, excel at everything you do, show some pride in your work, and maybe you can be as special as your sister some day!

BANGKOK, 9 June 2014 (NNT) The Director General of the Department of Civil Aviation believes that both aviation and tourism in Thailand will largely recover during the upcoming high season starting in October this year.[/b]

The Department of Civil Aviation Director General Voradej Harnprasert

Where on earth could an opinion like this have come from? What is he basing this on, besides wishful thinking? Does he have any specific info we do not, such as when foreigners will feel comfortable again visiting Thailand? I just spoke to several people in the US, and they are all very scared to visit. Most people assume it is an Egypt style coup. Thailand has done Nothing, as usual, to disseminate info around the world that it is safe here. Nothing. And things will just be honky dory on its own? Wow. What can one say?

Spidermike007

Its thainess.

Just wait until the fib hurts you personally either financially or personally.

You won't love thainess quite so much then. It is one of Thailand's biggest problems. Tourists can ignore it, for me as a long stayer it was what made me leave in the end.

Lies, lies, too many lies.

sounds like they solved a problem

If I was the problem, well.

If people you have had in your home can quite so willfully be liberal with the truth of something that effects your children, after knowing them closely for 10 years so be it.

I am quite lucky with my wife. After knowing her for nearly 15 years, she has understood that thainess stops at our doorstep. Saving face to feel better now has a terrible cost in the end.

She won't speak to that couple ever again. Its not I who is the problem it is the idea that failing.or doing wrong personally is something that has to be denied and ignored.

How can anyone trust anyone as a friend if the entire premise that they will lie to make themselves look better. About anything.

Ergo, true friends are few and far between and be very careful who you trust in Thailand.

well, i suggest you re-evaluate your own behaviour because I and most of my friends have been here far longer than you without these "problems". i suggest you google : quotes by pogo.

Saving face does not breed trust. Once trust is lost it is very difficult to regain. Especially if the person continues to "save face".

Its a sure way to destruction. But is it going to change? No.

With this obsticle, its no suprise that Thailand is a nation unblemished by achievement.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Well put. Feeling the need to save face is quite literally a boil on the face of this wonderful country. It is an act of tremendous cowardice. Face up to your issues. Be a man. Suck it up. Own it. Be responsible to humanity. All benefit in the end.

Spidermike007

You mentioned:

A lot of foreigners would be receptive to moving here to start a small business if the government was more accommodating to entrepreneurs. The country wouldn't benefit immediately but over time, some of these companies might grow and prosper, thereby adding high quality jobs that stay in Thailand.

This requires creative juice, initiative, intelligence, and motivation. In addition to an open mind. How long has it been since Thailand has had an administration that demonstrated those qualities? Certainly not Abhisit, nor the Yingbat. When Thailand establishes a meritocracy, where people are appointed based on talent, and their family name, the help they provided during the campaign, connections, etc, we may begin to see real progress being made. For now, there are very, very few dynamic people in govt. service, who have any real influence. Of course they should support foreigners. But, I must ask when was the last time you have seen policy designed to improve the lives of foreigners who live here and spend small fortunes on land, homes, businesses, and daily life? When, if ever?

Perhaps they would consider Samui, the land with the highest fatality rate in the free world, per capita? The families of the tourists who are at risk here would be grateful. So would the Thai families. No more allowing kids to drive bikes, no more tolerance of driving without helmets, no more tolerance of incredibly reckless driving. In other words ask the police to do real police work. Imagine that?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Many Thais do not like to read. From what I hear all the answers are in the book. So, now that the test is more difficult, perhaps some reading will be required?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

This means bargains for local expats. Great

Once you have been here for a while, you will notice that most Thais reaction to less customers is to put prices up.

If one searches for common sense and reasoning here, one can get very frustrated indeed.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

So far in Samui, it's been same same.

Doubt it's gonna change much considering there's very well connected families on this island with good ties to the people who took over the reign of the country.

small island too many taxis. makes it not worth doing short runs for small money. Also they are not aloud to under charge if they want to stay in their group

Short runs for small money better than no runs at all! Some taxis sit in the same place for hour upon hour with no fares rather than "undercharge" and fall out with their "family" " Don" group. (Hence the term "Mafia"!)

Understood it is madness but that's just the way it is


Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Unfortunately, you are right with "that's just the way that it is", but if things can change in Phuket (which they seem to be doing rather quickly!) then surely the same could apply to Samui?

Well, that would be amazing. But, few expect it. When you say a few families have the control, it is a bit like saying there are five mafia groups in Sicily. They are crime Lords. They are insects. 200 baht to go one km. The govt. has never touched them. But, it also appears the govt. has not supported Samui on any meaningful level for years now. No waste treatment facility means dumping waste into the sea. No police training means a completely ineffective traffic policy, and one of the highest fatality rates in the world, per capita. Children driving motorbikes. No helmet enforcement. No enforcement of no smoking policy. I could go on and on. It is the wild, wild west on Samui. One can only hope the army can clean out the rats. Bring on the pest control. Please.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe tourism, is a bigger part of the countrys G.D.P. Than the percentages quoted!

I hear it is closer to 20%. The agencies always quote 7-13%. So, it is a very big deal. A lot of people are hurting right now. And having just returned from the states, as usual the agencies are doing a poor job of convincing anyone it is safe here. People assume an Egypt style event. No so of course. But, they have no idea.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

That is exactly what a forum is about - opinions.

But - FACT - if a person feels disrespected (the Thais are great at highlighting that one) then it is disrespect.

Something may not be intended as offensive but if the recipient is offended then it is offended - this is the basic principle in racism.

the citizens of a country CANNOT be expected to know the sensitivities of every nationality that visits their country! ESPECIALLY if it is at odds with theirs.your claim is silly.

Sloth is Sloth. Does not matter the nation, nor the culture. Lateness is laziness. It is Sloth. It is a lack of respect. No matter the culture. Or course this is just my opinion.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

i'm betting thais really arent interested in your opinion

Thanks for your rather Socratic two cents worth. Frankly, I am not sure I care how much the average Thai is interested in my opinion. My guess is that a small percent read this forum, or care about the opinions we venture forth with. It is mostly for expats, correct? So, I guess I am more interested in what ex-pats think about Thai sloth, when it comes to a lack of punctuality. And this quality is by no means Thai. I have friends and associates in the US that are constantly tardy. It comes from a lack of organizational skills, combined with a lack of planning, and a lack of respect for who you are meeting with, in my humble opinion. These are only theories we are expounding on here. We are just having some fun. And because they are plagued with the need to save face, do you really think many introspect about the case for their constant tardiness? Face prevents much inner growth. But, there I go with another opinion.