jayboy

And you think that these are the farangs that vent their opinioned views in various political forums?

Why do you equate "majority of farangs" with "majority of politically opinioned farangs"?

You're not harboring an urge to belittle opposing views are you?

Most people I know that have lived in Thailand for a long time (as in Pre-Thaksin), speak thai well and that have a personal interest in Thai political history - are pretty much aligned in their views.

The split views tend to be far more common among the noobs.

With the dumber or more naive portion leaning towards the red side.

That's not my experience at all and I believe your summary is ill informed nonsense.The more intelligent and well educated long term residents tend to take a much more nuanced approach, and to be frank many feel something like despair at Thailand's divisions.The reality is that there are no heroes or villains on either side.It's been posted before but the following article by James Stent (a very well educated American banker, fluent Thai speaker, RBSC committee member, 30 years in the Kingdom) is more illustrative of the more civilised type of expatriate.

http://poppyfieldjournal.blogspot.com/p/thoughts-on-thailands-turmoil-by-james.html

Ah ha, that old chestnut reference, to conveniently back up your own beliefs, about well informed Thais who always seem amazingly to be on permanent stand-by, ready to chip in with their comments via yourself... almost as if they are stood looking over your shoulder right now as we speak.

Pointless discussion.Anyone can pretend to be anything on a forum like this.I have no idea what your background is in Thailand at all or who you know.I'm certainly not going to start bragging about my own experience.

BTW the Economist article on k. Thaksin getting a bit desperate seems to have caught the attention of Robert A. and the PPT. Robert A. phrases it as 'PPT Rips the Economist for its Myopic Coverage of Thailand'. Just check out on http://robertamsterdam.com/thailand/

Interesting how for years the usual suspects insisted the Economist was not to be trusted, indeed ( no kidding) was in the pay of Thaksin.Now that the Economist has published a piece that the usual suspects find favourable,do we hear an apology for their traducement in the past of an internationally respected journal? We do not - just the telling silence of the intellectually dishonest.

When it comes to opinion pieces in papers or magazines, i don't think expressing either agreement or disagreement with one from a certain publication, ties you into continuing to agree or disagree with all future opinion pieces, lest you be guilty of contradicting yourself. We hear often enough do we not what propaganda filled rubbish The Nation is, but doesn't stop the same people quoting from this publication when it suits their needs. BP might be off limits but plenty of other sources one can draw from if one is so fundamentally opposed to The Nation.

Anyway, as you imply in yourself a level of trust and faith held for certain publications that you maintain no matter whether you agree or not with their most current musings, am i to take it that this Economist article to which you refer carries your full endorsement?

The Economist is a leading publication with a tremendous reputation and a very specific view of the world, sometimes irritatingly opinionated I agree but always thoughtful and well researched.Its line on Thailand has been entirely consistent as far as I can see.I have no idea what you mean by giving my full endorsement.I read, I sometimes agree or I sometimes disagree.The article under discussion was perfectly fair in my viewIt would not for a second however occur to me to say certain parties had paid to secure the magazine's line - and that is exactly what the usual suspects have argued in the past.

You are presumably having a little joke in invoking The Nation.I don't wish to be disrespectful so will just say I have seen better newspapers.

It would have been more 'intellectually honest' if you have added present company excluded, dear jayboy. Now your post can be seen as implicitly suggesting I'm one of those who insisted in not trusting theEconomist. Furthermore just saying doesn't mean it's true. Unless you can dig up a few examples, preferably from more than one poster as you mention ''usual suspects".

All in intellectual fairness of course

Apologies.It was not meant to be a personal reference and indeed I cannot recall you ever mentioning The Economist one way or the other.

No direct responsibility?

No, not for the incidents themselves.These were were the work of the Thai military who were subsequently absolved of all responsibility in the time honoured way these generals shrug off responsibility for crimes.Of course Thaksin as PM had indirect responsibility and a more honourable man would have sought out those senior army officers responsible or even resigned himself.But Thai politicians tend not to be honourable men, and Thaksin is no exception to that rule.

You think that the judicial system has been bent against Thaksin, yet you dismiss the idea of it being bent against Abhisit as a ridiculously implausible joke. In the scheme of things, doesn't sound at all far-fetched to me.

You have much to learn about the way power and barami works in Thailand.No well informed Thai I know believes for a second Abhisit/Suthep will serve any time at all.They know it too hence the display of pointless bravado.

Where on earth did you get the idea I think the judicial system is any fairer now than under the last government? It's true however the Constitutional Court is very much the too of its masters.

BTW the Economist article on k. Thaksin getting a bit desperate seems to have caught the attention of Robert A. and the PPT. Robert A. phrases it as 'PPT Rips the Economist for its Myopic Coverage of Thailand'. Just check out on http://robertamsterdam.com/thailand/

Interesting how for years the usual suspects insisted the Economist was not to be trusted, indeed ( no kidding) was in the pay of Thaksin.Now that the Economist has published a piece that the usual suspects find favourable,do we hear an apology for their traducement in the past of an internationally respected journal? We do not - just the telling silence of the intellectually dishonest.

Yes. You are absolutely right.There is a strong streak of unrestrained hatred bordering insanity in the yellow/multicolored/PAD/Pitak Siam camp and the redshirt and ptp camp that is easily seen in the social media. Its a social divide that was created through the corrupt actions of Thaksin. That is exploited and perpetuated by Thaksin for the benefit of Thaksin.

Yeah right, as though all was calm and peaceful before Thaksin.Use your brain for chrissake.Thaksin didn't create the social divide;he exploited it.

The Shinawatra clan's key competitive advantage is that it has a massive PR machine designed to evoke blind adoration in more than 50% of Thailand's voters. While this business philosophy has proved highly lucrative to date, an important side effect is that that the PR machine produces aberrational results in something under 50% of the electorate who experience extreme side effect reactions to the constant PR bombardment and end up loathing the Shinawatras. So far the PR programming has been unsuccessful in achieving any form of middle ground and all those who have been subjected to the Shinawatra mental sanitation programme experience only extreme emotions of love or hatred. The Pheua Thai technical team is working on an ultimate solution to this problem which may include constitutional adjustments and kevlar face masks for clan members for use while travelling on foreign airlines.

For an experienced foreign resident you are still remarkably blinkered.What do you think politics is about if not public relations.The idea is to get as many possible to vote for you, geddit? Switch some words around and you could equally be talking about embittered Romney supporters after the victory of Obama - all those people sponging off the state and our taxes and similar dreary refrains.And on a point of detail as far as I can see most of the nastiest hatred in Thai society seems to be coming from one side - exemplified by the moronic woman who is the subject of this thread.

taking cx must say a lot about tg

That's interesting.I always fly CX to HK because it's a better airline.However I think we can assume that if this incident had occurred on TG the employee wouldn't have been fired.

If the anti government groups get behind this girl, not only do they make themselves look completely absurd,

Then it'll be business as usual, won't it.

something very stupid and sad could easily happen.

If by that you mean every well-turned out little rich kid is going to be at risk of having a cafe au lait poured on his head....dream on. It's not going to happen.

I'm going to guess that you don't read any of the Thai language forums/Facebook groups. Perhaps you didn't see the photo which was doing the rounds of the policeman who died in the car crash coming back from the Pitak Siam rally. One I saw had a caption which amounted to 'Karma's a bitch'. I saw it an hour or two after it had started floating around on the yellow-hued hate pages. It had over a 1000 likes and several hundred comments along the lines of 'Go to hell you Thaksin-loving bastard'. These people are absolutely insane - they don't care about what the stewardess did. All they care about is that she's yellow and she, in their eyes, suffered at Thaksin's hands.

You are absolutely right.There is a strong streak of unrestrained hatred bordering insanity in the yellow/multicolored/PAD/Pitak Siam camp and it is easily seen in the social media.The mentality is very much the same as I recall from the 1970's especially 1976.It's pretty much a middle class phenonomen.They are being played by other interests of course.

Seems to me AFP also just helped get this girl the sack!

What are they playing at publishing such rubish for the sake of some sort of smear story? crazy

It's called journalism Einstein.A major story involving criminal behaviour is not a smear.

I hope she gets a great job soon. Her heart was in the right place ,thinking about throwing a coffee at a member of this horrible family,just a pity that she talked about it.

Good to know you have a sound set of moral values.Pity she didn't have a baby or small child with her so your heroine couldn't assault them - the spawn of a horrible family.

But I am sure a lot of companies will happily give her a good job.....people who actively fight corruption are liked by many companies....

A truly bizarre comment.I have no doubt that she will find employment but any decent company would avoid taking on this profoundly stupid person.However let that pass.The ridiculous part of h90's post is the thought that by emptying coffee over Thaksin's daughter this might somehow be interpreted as a blow against corruption.Thai at Heart has brilliantly skewered this preposterous notion.In any case I'm not convinced that PAD loving middle class (often Sino-Thai) airheads are particularly shocked by corruption anyway.What they really loathe is that their comfortable status quo was unsettled by Thaksin, one of their own really.I'm not really sure that they are right about that anyway.Thaksin is a wily fellow but at heart deeply conservative and committed to the old ways.No, what this silly cow and her kind really hate Thaksin for is suggesting that the Thai majority might enjoy some rights equal to the pampered urban population, and should be respected not patronised and ignored.

Pass the Thaksin brown-nose sick bag Alice. A contribution deserving double-strength expressos from the whole crew.

Glad you enjoyed it.

However if you read it carefully you might note I'm really just making an observation on the silly Thai urban middle class, of which admittedly this foolish girl is a particularly half witted specimen.Relax.They have nothing to lose except their "aitches" (or whatever the birdbrain Sino Thai equivalent is) as Orwell advised the British middle class in the face of a rising working class.Actually the British upper middle class remained firmly in charge which would have surprised Orwell.But then the British upper middle class was and is quite smart unlike the retards.....well, you get my drift.

But I am sure a lot of companies will happily give her a good job.....people who actively fight corruption are liked by many companies....

A truly bizarre comment.I have no doubt that she will find employment but any decent company would avoid taking on this profoundly stupid person.However let that pass.The ridiculous part of h90's post is the thought that by emptying coffee over Thaksin's daughter this might somehow be interpreted as a blow against corruption.Thai at Heart has brilliantly skewered this preposterous notion.In any case I'm not convinced that PAD loving middle class (often Sino-Thai) airheads are particularly shocked by corruption anyway.What they really loathe is that their comfortable status quo was unsettled by Thaksin, one of their own really.I'm not really sure that they are right about that anyway.Thaksin is a wily fellow but at heart deeply conservative and committed to the old ways.No, what this silly cow and her kind really hate Thaksin for is suggesting that the Thai majority might enjoy some rights equal to the pampered urban population, and should be respected not patronised and ignored.

Can't we draw a distinction between violent acts and suppressed urges to commit them?

Perhaps the lesson is that living in luxury on stolen wealth has its drawbacks.

No, and in any case you have missed the point.The problem was not the thought but posting her deranged views on Facebook.Cathay Pacific have no choice but to fire the stupid girl.

Actually the main problem for her is a legal point,. She published a copy of the passenger manifest which for a number of reasons is clearly illegal and the airline can be sued for that.

Point taken.Hopefully she will face criminal charges as well as dismissal.

Can't we draw a distinction between violent acts and suppressed urges to commit them?

Perhaps the lesson is that living in luxury on stolen wealth has its drawbacks.

No, and in any case you have missed the point.The problem was not the thought but posting her deranged views on Facebook.Cathay Pacific have no choice but to fire the stupid girl.

Exceptionalism as a basic condition of your life :

ie believing that you and your countrymen are better than all others,

and no matter what you do it is better than all others ;

is to most rational minds the root of most national troubles,

and that of a nations neighbors, no matter what nation.

That you are willing to 'guess' about Americans seems to

indicate your superficial knowledge about them.

If superficial knowledge means study of American history at an elite university,so be it.From your poor English it's not clear what your nationality is but your definition of exceptionalism is wrong.The key point is that it does not suggest that one's country is 'better' just that it is qualitatively different.Your mistake is I agree one often made by the unlettered but for the better educated the best understanding of American exceptionalism can be found in the works of a foreigner,de Toqueville.There is some substance to the American claim but not to Thai claims to be original or unique in a significant way.

Amazingly this is the 100th post!

Sorry if it's been said, I dont have time to read the previous 99 comments, bit here's my 2 cents:

She won't save face until the perpetrator of these comments has been sacked.

Probably jealous of her brothers recent activity in the spotlight, the Shin gene kickin in.

Shame this person didn't actually spill the coffee, she could have made it look like an accident.

Finally, can't believe we're talking about this (I'm as guilty as the rest of you).

If the flight attendant posted her deranged and unpleasant thoughts on Facebook she will be sacked by Cathay Pacific if the internal inquiry finds her guilty.It's nothing to do with Thaksin's daughter's view.

We've been around for about the same time. I came first as a student with my dad then I stayed as a young men and now a middle aged middle manager. So we will agree that the area changed a lot during the past 20 years.

But the big difference is while I was growing up, you were getting old. You want things to remain the same, I want things to move with their (my) time. Abhisit defends Thainess and a mythical Thailand than only exists in the mind of the old elite, the "good old time". Thaksin brings change. Abhisit fight for isolation, a Thailand out of time, a "magical kingdom". Thaksin engages with reality, with our neighbors, Cambodia, Burma, Singapore, to build the South East Asia of tomorrow.

I understand your point of view. As I said before I like to talk with old people because there is a lot to learn from them. But I also think that what happened in the past should stay in the past and it's time for you to enjoy your retirement.

Can you show me some examples of Abhisit defending Thainess or fighting isolation? I think you're talking BS.

Bet I am older than you and want things to progress.There are those who stand pat and will till the day they die,

and others will always learn and develop till the day they die. Just because the old are less mobile or have determined over time that they DO like somethings a lot more than other things, that does NOT mean they are stuck in time and only listen to what they want to hear.

You are an ageist, and that means your youth and attitude apparently blinds you to what happens for real with those older than you.

As to Abihisit defending Thai culture. All politicians MUST, it's part of the schooled in 'exceptionalism of Thai-ness' that all Thais have been told endlessly that they possess. Of course he does push that, at the same time he CLEARLY advocated and installed programs to increase Thai culture, Thai's educational standards, and it's relevance in the world. Many have fought him tooth and tong for trying. Or simply because their group didn't profit in the deals.

I'm not clear whether you believe in Thai exceptionalism or not.I don't for a moment.I don't believe in American exceptionalism either although I guess most Americans do.It's a less absurd proposition given America's distinctive history and unique contribution to mankind - the right to liberty, property and pursuit of happiness but as for Thailand it makes no sense at all.If you mean Thailand should be proud of its culture and take measures to defend it as well as teaching young people about it, I fully agree with you.But that is an entirely different matter from "exceptionalism'.

it is a circle.....a vote buying corrupt government won't make laws against corruption and vote buying.

Without separation of power they won't get in troubles anyway.

Have a look to the East Europe Communist countries or to North Korea.....East Europe Communist parties didn't fall on the ballot boxes.

Maybe in North Korea they will vote out Kim, in the next 20-100 votes....we only need to wait.

Stupid comparison.In neither Eastern Europe under communism nor North Korea have there been free elections so your examples are meaningless.You seem to be saying that in Thailand vote buying nullifies elections? If so show hard evidence since no reputable source agrees with you - including the Democrat opposition, international observers, political analysts etc.If you are not saying this then stop alluding to it as a major consideration.In practice of course the unelected elites prefer the majority to be uneducated and ignorant as it leaves them in total command, particularly when taken in context of Thailand's deferential culture.That's why they loathe Thaksin because one of their own (well almost) pulled the plug on the status quo.

In both North Korea and in Eastern Europe were elections and these governments consider them as free elections....

Yes massive vote buying nullifies elections, or say it different, with vote buying elections aren't democratic.

If you tell me there wasn't full scale vote buying than you either lie or you never have been in Thailand during elections....It is known common knowledge, not even hiding. I agree that most governments did nothing to get the people more educated. I only saw the Surayud government trying to establish high value educational TV and Abhisit tried to improve it. I didn't see much from your hero Thaksin to improve the education and he was a long time in power.

Thailand as it is now would need a complete revolution in their educational system, which is not easy even if someone would try to do it.

Edit: Add: Thaksin told several times that he prefers a 1 party system....that is exactly what Eastern Europe had....North Korea has two parties (at least theoretically)

More foolishness.Of course the governments of North Korea etc boasted about "free" elections, but they were no more fair than these dictatorships were peoples "democracies" - as they liked to label themselves.In contrast the elections in Thailand were free and fair and have been recognised as such by international bodies and the world generally.Aren't you ashamed of your suggestions that Thailand is just another dictatorship? You people cast around for reasons to imply Yingluck's government isn't legitimate.If not silliness about vote buying it's that most Thais didn't vote for her - ignoring the rules of parliamentary democracy.It's akin to those whackjobs who insist Obama isn't legitimate because Romney got 47% of the popular vote.

As to the specifics of vote buying in Thailand this - for the umpteenth time - is a practice which needs to be stamped out - but did not change the overall result.If you have any evidence to suggest otherwise let's hear it.

Finally there is no evidence the well educated make political decisions in voting that are less selfish than anyone else

Actually, the best way to achieve this goal is to have a highly educated electorate. When people do not have the ability to solve problems intellectually, they resort to violence in order to achieve change. Considering the educational system in Thailand...The writing is on the wall.

Er, not really.Most of the worlds democracies achieved that position when their populations were at least as poorly educated as that of Thailand - in some cases much less educated.In any event you are confusing education with intelligence, specifically the ability of rural people to perceive which politicians/party are more likely to improve voters material prospects.In Thailand the sections which have more often resorted to violence are the unelected elites, the army and their supporters (eg Red Gaurs in 1976) whether through military coups or repressive violence.

Hmm well maybe many democracies were formed with an ignorant illiterate electorate. However the thrust of the reply was to secure democracy through the ballot box without resorting to violence. The UK democratic system came about peacefully but at the time people in politics were driven by somewhat more altruistic goals and the country was governed with at least some effort in maintaining it's position in the world. There was honour and public exposure was a severe disincentive to behave dishonorably.

These days no one gives a hoot and if you are exposed as a corrupt treacherous B&*^%$$d then never mind. This is not restricted to Thailand either - it seems to be a global trend - George Bush's Florida shenanigans come to mind, Peter Mandelsson in the UK and the list is long.

Shame seems to count for nothing anymore except in Thailand where the shame does not even exist. People in power at all levels are openly corrupt and proud of it. Judges, police, politicians - just everyone and they have no shame for it because society here accepts it.

So the ill educated remain ill educated and vote buying is the way to get in. I think the first 2/3rds of the OP is spot on. That is exactly what is going on. A military coup is not the way to change it but neither can the rape of Thailand's treasury continue like this. Without education, violence will be the route taken to bring about change - change that is desperately needed because the people in politics today are bereft of honour, dignity, trust or altruism and seek only to further their own personal gains with less than zero respect or thought to the country they are the first to pretend to love so much.

With an idiotic, shallow thinking electorate and a government that only has ideas on how to steal from Thailand's coffers, there is not much hope of a peaceful democratic long term solution. The elite here are educated - at least to a fashion - and do see what is going on but if 20 million Somchai's and Panida's are going to vote for the next shiny present offered for their vote - a shiny present full of excrement - then the current cess pit of treasonous, corrupt government will continue.

Yet more profound ignorance.Uneducated or even illiterate does not mean ignorant.In any case Thailand is highly literate throughout and increasingly well educated.

UK democracy did not come without riots and a great deal of violence principally from the authorities.Those in authority were generally not driven by higher ideals but by an understandable wish to preserve as much as possible of their wealth and power in the face of democratic forces.In this attempt they were remarkably successfull in sharp contrast with the stupidity and boneheaded ness of their Thai equivalents - who show little evidence of enlightened self interest .

I have no comment on the last part of your post - just a rehash of discredited vote buying nonsense and lies about the present government .

A pity really. "Reporter without Borders" had moved Thailand up in 2011, but incidents like this will push the score down again.

I find it somewhat amazing to read posters writing about three reporters almost as if 'they asked for it', whereas the two killed in 2010 were obviously victims of the non-elected elite with their figure head who went on (doctored) tape with 'kill me some'.

I find it somewhat amazing that someone should compare the tragic deaths of reporters by the army in 2010 with the very professional police action last month.Guess he follows his political prejudices rather than examining the facts.

The government is focusing its efforts in such a way as to guarantee it brings the economy down.

Sometimes it's not necessary to comment, as when statements made are so absurd and in this quoted instance utterly foolish.