jayboy

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

It's hard to know where to start with this.

Your history on this board is as someone that baits people serially and we both know that the above is a crass attempt.

I think though in this case, I know what the issue is. We are talking about 2 different countries. Singapore is it?

You are mistaken.I pointed out some ridiculous and ignorant statements from you.Do I really need to list them again? Instead of retraction or even explanation you simply attempt to deflect through personalisation.

Of course Singapore is totally different from Thailand.I was simply making a comment aboutthe need to increase the value added element in the economy and rely less on cheap labour.Thailand has done it in the past diversifying away from agriculture and commodities, and I believe can do it in the future.Calibrated wage level increases will play an important part.In other words cheap labour reliant businesses will either have to change or go out of business.All this is good for the Thai economy.

What I particularly resent is the way some on the forum are dishonest (and sometimes breathtakingly ignorant) about the Thai economy as a way of making political capital.I posted the Korn clip, who has as much reason to make political capital as anyone, but his honesty, knowledge and intelligence shone through nonetheless.It's not really a political matter as I tried to explain and politicians, bureaucrats and above all businessmen can take credit.It's nothing really about this particular government anyway.

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

It's a pity that in writing such one-eyed rubbish you have to resort to calling people who have a different opinion - ignorant.

All sorts of rice subsidy figures have been bandied about by PTP with their figures on (possibly imaginary) foreign sales questionable, to say the least. You are putting words in Korn's mouth which, if he knew the source, he would have a good laugh.

The Thai economy was broadly healthy in 1996 & we know what happened. There is so much being spent on subsidies (& the usual associated scams) that the amount is unsustainable based on the amount of revenue the government receives in taxes (some reduced). They will have to curtail the subsidies or the debt will rise over 60%. In fact if it were not for the FIDF manipulation where the debt was transferred from the government to the BOT, government debt would be worse that the current figure of close to 50%.

There is no sound case for wages to be increased (beyond gradually) until Thais are skilled enough to raise their level of productivity & task difficulty. This is not happening - education is awful & technical schools are in deep trouble for other reasons. You are putting the cart before the horse here (want to borrow an avatar?).

Well at least you attempt to produce some numbers, but unfortunately they are wrong.The earlier comment was that the rice subsidy scheme will crash the Thai economy.It won't, nor does Korn believe that.(I use him as a touchstone because he is highly intelligent, well informed and politically very hostile to this government).

Your summary of the Thai economy is wrongheaded.We know the Thai economy was rocked to its foundation in the late 1990's but like most of Asia the country has made a remarkable recovery.The level of government debt needs watching but is easily containable.Clearly on the wage level issue you don't follow current debate.There is a very interesting debate going on with some economists arguing that a significant level of wage increase is just what Thailand now needs.Lee Kwan Yew tried something similar in Singapore some twenty years ago - putting the cart before the horse - and was roundly criticised by some economists for not taking into account skill levels in Singapore at that time.They were wrong then and so I suspect are you now.In case you haven't twigged the point higher wage levels forced Singaporean businesses to push for higher value added.Your low wage recipe does condemn Thailand to stagnation because frankly it can't compete on low labour costs with South Asia and elsewhere in the region.

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

Good article.

Whilst many want to intervene right now, I personally think that the PTP machine needs to be left to crash Thailand economy. Sure, it will be painful, heads will roll. At the end of the day, all these coups, judicial or military, just perpetuate the current situation.

That isn't to say the corrupt shouldn't be named, shamed & imprisoned. Just that you need to let PTP implode on its own.

What is it about this thread? Another absurd and profoundly stupid post.The Thai economy is not on the verge of crashing but is in contrast doing extremely well.It's fine to criticise this government but the level of ignorance and/or downright dishonesty is unacceptable.Being charitable I suspect part of the problem is sheer ignorance and a lack of comprehension of how the Thai economy is managed.Firstly there is no real difference between the political parties on essentials and secondly there is a very high level of competence and independence with senior officials in the Ministry of Finance and Bank of Thailand.Thirdly there is the remarkable Thai corporate and banking sector which despite global vicissitudes is doing extremely well.In short the Thai economy is in great shape.

Don't take my word for it.Khun Korn who is the most formidable critic of the current government says virtually the same thing.

http://www.businessweek.com/videos/2012-11-26/ex-thai-fin-dot-min-on-the-state-of-the-thai-economy#r=lr-fst

Actually, the best way to achieve this goal is to have a highly educated electorate. When people do not have the ability to solve problems intellectually, they resort to violence in order to achieve change. Considering the educational system in Thailand...The writing is on the wall.

Er, not really.Most of the worlds democracies achieved that position when their populations were at least as poorly educated as that of Thailand - in some cases much less educated.In any event you are confusing education with intelligence, specifically the ability of rural people to perceive which politicians/party are more likely to improve voters material prospects.In Thailand the sections which have more often resorted to violence are the unelected elites, the army and their supporters (eg Red Gaurs in 1976) whether through military coups or repressive violence.

The whole thing is rather odd as Seh Ai seemed to deliberately blow himself up by saying he needed at least 100,000 people to carry on, calling for a 5 year freeze on elections, then publicly ringing up army commanders and asking them to help the rally. He then declared defeat prematurely after he had managed to attract 20,000 people on two occasions without even a coherent manifesto, charismatic speakers or funding and despite police action in blocking people from coming to Bkk. Sondhi's rally's that ended up ousting Thaksin started with only about 5,000 and built up slowly over many months to 250,000. It didn't reach a critical mass until Thaksin gave the people the finger with his Shin Corp sale.

There is something highly suspicious in Seh Ai's behaviour.

There are a few dim bulbs on the social media claiming Thaksin bought him off.I don't see anything very suspicious just stupidity - a commodity not exactly in short supply among Thai army generals.

Incidentally there are various errors on your summary of the Siam Pitak rally story,some rather basic.

forget about extrapolating numbers its irrelevant TIT they all do it - stick to facts - 12,000 showed up and they were controlled well by the Police (for once) let's rejoice at that! I hope any future demos, by any side, are as well controlled

My comment about extrapolation wasn't in regards to the the numbers, but never mind.

I can appreciate that none of the leaders of the three entities stuck to the facts that they claimed.

I hope any future demos, by any side, also similarly include cessation of activities when violence occurs and that demo leaders quit their position afterwards.

.

Unfortunately the history of demonstrations in Thailand shows, with a notable exception on Saturday, the violence has usually been initiated by the security forces.As to the Pitak Siam demonstration the leaders called it off not because of the violence, which they had encouraged, but because of the paltry numbers, the bad weather and the refusal of the army to get involved on their side.

Their voice must be heard? They need to speak up a bit louder if they want this government to listen.

They apparently represent less than 50k people.

Regarding their coup issue, you're probably right.

Regarding their other concerns, I would venture it's significantly more than 50K.

The Pitak Siam (Protect Thailand) group held a rally denouncing the current government for alleged widespread corruption and incompetence.

http://www.demotix.c...k#media-1627354

No the Pitak Siam, PAD, yellowshirt constituency is pretty much the same united by their hatred of democracy.I agree that a only a minority wanted a coup now, the point being that most in the reactionary camp understand at last that this would be ineffective or counterproductive.If they thought it could accomplish their aims they would be as slavering supporters as any.On most other issues as you suggest they are in full agreement.

Saw this from Ratchaprasong News on Facebook - directly relevant to topic:

"Whisper: Amart was upset, our intel said 300 million baht were spent on saturday, Boonlert was right to call it off, he said on Channel 3 this morning that he has to call it off. He felt bad many were hurt, and there might have been M79 firing later. Umm! Wonder if he knew something. He also resigned from his position as Pre-Cadet Class President."

Not sure I understand.Does anybody here?

Morula said:

What's that got to do with the price of rice?

I think it's because Mandela and dr king would give their support to the struggle of the peasantry against an entrenched feudal elite whereas yesterday's demonstration was all about jealousy

Ask any Thai and they'll tell you so.

Noses out of troughs and we want it now.

Call for the army we want it all.

Pure jealousy, covetous and pure hatred.

500 protestors working in concert at 9 in the morning to break through police barricades.

From the off they were organized

There was no half day stand-off or some such it was first thing "all together lads"

Only their number was 500 confronting thousands of police.

Your boys lost

And will continue to

I'm sure Mandela would not count Thaksin among his Facebook friends. TS' portfolio across the African content along with his shady associates would preclude that.

Wrong.Thaksin visited with Mandela on S.Africa in late 2010.

Are you nuts? No where in my post did I ever complain there weren't enough police. I said the police should set the bar for credibility higher than the "fascist" leader of PS or the lunatic leaders of the Red Shirts. Do you disagree with that? If you do, than address that. If you don't, then what the heck does your reply have to do with what I posted? Nothing.

<< flame snipped>>

The sheer oddness of your post was that you thought it appropriate to splutter about police numbers - "outrageously bogus claims etc etc" as though the police was part of a protesting mob.It's quite common of course for discussion in the press and elsewhere to centre on estimates of redhirts, yellowshirts or whatever on the streets - but that's obviously a different matter.Astonishingly you say the police should have put the bar for credibility higher that Pitak Siam or the redshirts.I don't even know what that means let alone why you think it might be relevant or interesting

In the demonstrations on Friday the police appear to have acted very professionally and earned praise from all sides.If they had been incompetent (and let's agree they have been hopeless in the past) that would be a different matter and you would have had the right to question why for instance the authorities had not put more officers on the street or handled the demonstration more efficiently.But you had a different beef (and this seemed to be your main concern) - you complained that there were fewer officers on the ground than the authorities had earlier suggested.I find that completely inexplicable unless the real source of your concern is that the high numbers quoted in advance of the police authorities may have partly explained the relatively small Pitak Siam crowd and deterred troublemakers generally.I have no idea if this is correct or not but is the only rational explanation I can think of for your bizarre post.

I think your comments on Mister King do him a posthumous disservice. I can't for the life of me see him as a Thaksin minion

Indeed. I think it is quite possibly the most idiotic and disgusting comment I've seen on this forum. The Thaksin minions have really been going in to overdrive the past couple days in their propaganda war on the issue of this protest.

Back to the topic - the Pitak Siam leader's comment was that "they lost to evil".Part of the trouble with the political conflict in Thailand is that it tends too often to be seen as a struggle between absolute good and absolute evil, in Manichaean terms if you like.I'm not sure that one side is worse than the other and, looking forward, I believe Thais on both sides should tone down the rhetoric.I'm fascinated that my reference to Dr King can be described by a presumably sane person as "the most idiotic and disgusting comment I've seen on the forum".Nobody suggested that Dr King would have been a minion of Thaksin:he would not have been a minion of anyone.However based on knowledge of his politics, his sympathy for the repressed and general humanity he would without a doubt felt at home with the best of the redshirt movement.

Then by all means let me clarify. I am in no way behind the red shirts in any way shape or form. I respect the monarchy, I live in and love Bangkok.

Before Taksin, I don't think there was significant cause for revolt amongst Thailand's rural people. Lest a real leader, like someone with the qualities I mentioned earlier, would have developed and succeeded. What the red shirts are is a revolting perversion of a "For the people" movement, nothing more than mercenaries and greedy scum lured by a vacuum of power and the promises of free handouts. As for what Dr. King would say, or do, or feel, whom he might side with if any, I can't claim to say. He was a better man than I in that way and I won't try and put hypothetical words in the man's mouth.

Noted your views that the redshirts are :

"a revolting perversion of a "For the people" movement, nothing more than mercenaries and greedy scum lured by a vacuum of power and the promises of free handouts." Not really any need for me to discuss further and with these words you define yourself clearly.

As for Dr King you appear to be saying you are not familiar enough with his life and work to express an informed opinion.Let me then enllghten you.Without a shadow of a doubt he would have been a supporter of the Thai redshirt movement.

People may take my post as they please. However, please note, that I only said that the quote came to mind when I read the article. Not that I compare the issues.

Had the red shirts been truly a oppressed group, and not just a mercenary terrorist organisation, they would have spawned a leader organically. Someone from the common man rank and file, with a gift for eloquence who's words crystallized the struggles, and the yearning to be free, of their people. That person would have then lead the red shirt movement from the front line, not fearing any one or any thing, having already come to terms with the very good possibility of martyrdom. He or she would have lead them in peaceful protest, with a clear and defined agenda that spelled out peace with dignity and inclusion.

But no, the red shirts have a cowardly, greedy, cold blooded, criminal financier that pays off what unscrupulous savages he can, and has his minions terrorise everyone else, while he pulls the strings from afar hiding behind his empty headed, semi-illiterate, kid sister.

Hence why I believe the General and his people are fighting the good fight, and like Dr. Kings quote says "Right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant"

Except it's not a discussion about Thaksin and the florid language you use indicates you have difficulty in striking a reasonable balance.I have reservations about THaksin too but he was undoubtedly a catalyst, and remains by far the most popular male politician in the country.I am uncomfortable about treating the views of millions of Thais with such scorn (or retreat into the absurd copout that they have been brainwashed or "brought.)"You, perhaps oblivious of the obvious consequences, invoked the memory of Dr King and I responded with the reminder he would without doubt have been on the side of the redshirts: you half seem to be suggesting that you are too but you can't quite get round to saying it.

The redshirts ,however flawed, represented democratic values and progress.The Pitak Siam fascists represented reaction and a hatred of democracy.Not comparable

Whatever you believe the respective groups represent - and frankly i think your ideas, particularly about the redshirts are quite ridiculous, but there you go - neither group speaks for or spoke for the nation, and neither group has / had the right to take over Bangkok, create mayhem and make demands. If you support / defend one group's right to do that, but not the other, you are a hypocrite who flip flops on what is right and what is wrong dependant on the circumstance you happen to favour.

I agree with some of this.Neither group spoke for the nation - that can only be determined in a general election.But the fact remains one group commanded huge support and was linked with a party than obtained a clear mandate from the Thai people.The other was Pitak Siam.

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I am not trying to link specific Democrats to the Siam Pitak rally though I'm sure many attended.I am saying that Siam Pitak included many of the same people and groups as PAD.The relationship between leading Democrats and PAD is matter of record.The common denominator is not just a hatred of Thaksin but a fear of the implications of a genuinely democratic Thailand.

And yes they serve much the same constituency (I'm not really in the business of educating you how the English language is employed,but my use of the word 'constituency' is both precise and accurate.

You are 'sure' many attended but I am sure you couldn't name one. Just muckraking again.

http://oxforddiction...?q=constituency

I assume the OED meets your standards

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.

I could name several.My neighbour is one.Who on earth do you think most of the Pitak Siam rally attenders voted for in the last election ? Duh!

No more please on the 'constituency' matter.I can't deal with it!

Now, now jayboy you being so much more intelligent and smarter that the rest of us old uneducated guys I know you can deal with it.

Actually i can't.I can deal with different views.I can accept I am sometimes wrong.I can accept that I should sometimes look at thing a different way.I can accept that I may be too soft on the redshirts.But old fashioned thickness is hard to deal with, innit?

Nice, so now you are the self-appointed arbiter of who has standing to complain about anything political. I am sure every one will heed that pronouncement.

Not anything political. Just on the matter of protest groups, and specifically the people here who have spent the last two years arguing why the protests of 2010 were justified, and who now perform majestic pirouettes in thinking and act with outrage at a group that dared undertake a protest that barely lasted half a day. Please heed away.

Inappropriate moral equivalence.The redshirts ,however flawed, represented democratic values and progress.The Pitak Siam fascists represented reaction and a hatred of democracy.Not comparable

I am not trying to link specific Democrats to the Siam Pitak rally though I'm sure many attended.I am saying that Siam Pitak included many of the same people and groups as PAD.The relationship between leading Democrats and PAD is matter of record.The common denominator is not just a hatred of Thaksin but a fear of the implications of a genuinely democratic Thailand.

And yes they serve much the same constituency (I'm not really in the business of educating you how the English language is employed,but my use of the word 'constituency' is both precise and accurate.

You are 'sure' many attended but I am sure you couldn't name one. Just muckraking again.

http://oxforddiction...?q=constituency

I assume the OED meets your standards

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

.

I could name several.My neighbour is one.Who on earth do you think most of the Pitak Siam rally attenders voted for in the last election ? Duh!

No more please on the 'constituency' matter.I can't deal with it!

According to your logic, the PS are all yellow shirts and therefore voted 'No'.

// French language removed, this is an English language forum //

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God it's hard work sometimes.I didn't say all PS supporters were yellow shirts, though many of them would have been. I said that many of them would have voted Democrat.They are the same constituency.

I am not trying to link specific Democrats to the Siam Pitak rally though I'm sure many attended.I am saying that Siam Pitak included many of the same people and groups as PAD.The relationship between leading Democrats and PAD is matter of record.The common denominator is not just a hatred of Thaksin but a fear of the implications of a genuinely democratic Thailand.

And yes they serve much the same constituency (I'm not really in the business of educating you how the English language is employed,but my use of the word 'constituency' is both precise and accurate.

You are 'sure' many attended but I am sure you couldn't name one. Just muckraking again.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/constituency?q=constituency

I assume the OED meets your standards

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

I could name several.My neighbour is one.Who on earth do you think most of the Pitak Siam rally attenders voted for in the last election ? Duh!

No more please on the 'constituency' matter.I can't deal with it!

The common denominator is not just a hatred of Thaksin but a fear of the implications of a genuinely democratic Thailand.

They fear the implications of a genuinely democratic Thailand? Really?

OK then, perhaps then someone should go and tell them that they really need not, as in a genuinely democratic Thailand, Thaksin and all his cronies that they hate so much, would no longer exist.

Does this actually mean anything - especially the second para?

But since PitakSiam represents the same constituency as PAD ( with many of the same people and groups involved)I am afraid your attempt to distance the Democrats from the fascists falls at the first fence.

I'm not convinced that 'constituency' is the correct word.

If you believe that Democrat MPs were present, then present your facts to corroborate your statement.

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"Constituency" is exactly the right word.I did not say Democrat MPs were present.I said that many of the groups and people involved with Pitak Siam were also involved with PAD (and Democrat MPs including Abhisit and Korn had very close links with the latter).

In the political sense, a constituency is a geographically denominated area contested in an election by opposing parties. Pitak Siam has never contested an election and the PAD's New Politics group effectively stood against the Dems so your statement holds water like a second hand colander.

Furthermore your attempts to directly connect the Dems to Pitak Siam's rally are so tenuous as to be unworthy of pixels.

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I am not trying to link specific Democrats to the Siam Pitak rally though I'm sure many attended.I am saying that Siam Pitak included many of the same people and groups as PAD.The relationship between leading Democrats and PAD is matter of record.The common denominator is not just a hatred of Thaksin but a fear of the implications of a genuinely democratic Thailand.

And yes they serve much the same constituency (I'm not really in the business of educating you how the English language is employed,but my use of the word 'constituency' is both precise and accurate.

As a first hurdle for your proposition, name some of these democrat mp's you say are associated with pitak siam and their role in that organization.

See my reply to Moruya above.Don't try to tell me you are going to suggest, even allowing for your disappointment at yeaterday's fiasco, that these two groups dont have a very significant degeee of overlap.Hardly surprising since they have the same political agenda and are supported by many of the same people.

But since PitakSiam represents the same constituency as PAD ( with many of the same people and groups involved)I am afraid your attempt to distance the Democrats from the fascists falls at the first fence.

I'm not convinced that 'constituency' is the correct word.

If you believe that Democrat MPs were present, then present your facts to corroborate your statement.

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"Constituency" is exactly the right word.I did not say Democrat MPs were present.I said that many of the groups and people involved with Pitak Siam were also involved with PAD (and Democrat MPs including Abhisit and Korn had very close links with the latter).

"we lost to evil " says a fascist who was playing and singing to right wing tunes on stage yesterday which were popular among his kind while the massacres of students in 1976 where going on! Cheering protesters on to confront police and hoping for a bloodbath so his army pals could step in!

The sooner this old guard with their outdated thinking dissapears the better!

Thailand lost nothing yesterday – Thailand only won!

You're right, yesterday was a big victory for Thailand and democracy .

We should thank Pitak Siam for organizing this protest, showing to the world how completely out of touch these ideas of violence and military coup are with the general population.

It should be also a great wake up call for the democrats. If they want to come back to power,it has to be through the ballot box. Yesterday, by a large majority, the general population rallied behind the elected government against the threat of fascism and an other military coup. It's also a clear personal defeat for Abhisit, who failed (again) to understand what the Thai want

and what they are not ready to accept. Yesterday's fiasco is also a clear call for Abhisit resignation.

While i am glad this fascist has been exposed for what he is, a fool of the highest order, a dangerous fool, but still a fool I can't see what he had to do with Abhisit. PS, while attracting some PAD support, would have been no friends of the democrats. Fascists are a whole different breed of political animal, generally rabid and dangerous to all. Stop linking Abhisit with them please.

If one needs an additional example, while a few Democrat MP's were associated to varying degrees with PAD, there have been no Democrat MP's similarly associated with Pitak Siam.

To attempt to link Abhisit/Dems to the Pitak Siam is inaccurate.

It should be also a great wake up call for the democrats. If they want to come back to power,it has to be through the ballot box

is out of place when discussing a group that doesn't want a ballot box.

.

But since PitakSiam represents the same constituency as PAD ( with many of the same people and groups involved)I am afraid your attempt to distance the Democrats from the fascists falls at the first fence.