jayboy

Hmmmm I have never labeled anyone that disagrees with me as red just for disagreeing with me nor did I ever say that someone that disagrees with me (and the BoD of AOT) about who closed the airport is red. Some are and some aren't. I have labeled reds as red. I don't tend to label people as many other things either.

My use of machiavellian works in context and with common usage and understanding. The use of schoolboy etc is just another attempt to attack the poster because to not attack another poster would be almost unheard of.

Your other personal remarks will be left alone .... as I would not want to get involved in any more the mudslinging that would surely follow.

Glad to have your clarification.Still best not to label people as Reds who question extreme right wing views.

Give me one example of a recent book on Thai politics you have found useful.If you do,I solemnly promise I will not respond in any way and furthermore will never mention the subject again.

Again personal comments ..... sad.

Yes the AOT official on the ground did shut the airport. That has nothing to do with the fact that the reds on the board bring it up everytime the reds are criticized.

Machiavellian - from The Prince --- "The ends justifies the means" which could include the intentional baiting of the government or army to use violence resulting in the loss of their own members to force social change. I don't understand why that needed to be explained.

Personal comments NOT responded to.

So let me get this straight.You blame the AOT not PAD for closing down the airport and persist in describing anyone who disagrees a "Red."

I don't understand why it's too "personal" to name at least one book on recent Thai history/politics you have found illuminating.A cynic might begin to think you haven't read anything at all.

You repeat a schoolboy cliche on Machiavelli, end justifying the means, which actually is a distortion of his philosphy but even the example you give doesn't really work out.I would give you a potted briefing on Machiavelli but that would be off topic.

If I had a nickel for every time a red on the board has interjected in a thread about the reds machiavellian exploits with "What about the PAD and the Airport?" I'd be almost as rich as Thaksin!

Aren't you the fellow that claimed it wasn't the PAD that closed down the airport but a panicky AOT official?

Is it really necessary to describe anyone on the forum as "Red" simply because a different viewpoint is expressed?

Do you know what Machiavellian means because your use of it doesn't make much sense? I suggest you ponder hard before coming back to me on this one since I studied Machiavelli at graduate level.

How's that reading list (or even one useful book on recent Thai politics) expected from you getting along? Don't worry , I know that you will never produce one.

Also, I know many Thai people who are capable of having red and yellow friends and taking both perspectives into account without flying into a rage. In fact I wonder if the majority of people aren't like that? Much of the fury towards red shirts and towards govt from reds and others (because there were also ordinary non-red folk that felt sorry for the red shirts to some degree but wouldn't call themselves red), has died down and the election won't be won or lost on red/yellow issues.

I hope you are right.I think there has been some movement in that direction but there are still plenty of Thais (on both sides) with whom it is impossible to have a rational discussion.I love your comment about "flying into a rage": I have seen this so often (not just in relation to politics) or at least signs that only a modicum of dignity awareness prevented it.Where on earth did the the Thais get the idea that it was the foreigners who were hot hearted, as opposed to their cool hearted selves?

To clarify my 40% figure was of course a guess at the percentage that are broadly sympathetic to the Red movement, though as you suggest many would not be at all passionate let alone dream of attending rallies.It's just a guess though, and on reflection I would revise it down to 30%.

I would disagree, local meetings up here in the NE are drawing substantial crowds...and they are not being paid. The BKK rallys are a publicity thing but the real discussions are taking place in their villages and towns but you will not read about that in your newspaper. As farangs we dont get to know what the thais are thinking and doing and only when pressing a friend he leaked out how many meetings are actually taking place across this region. Even my wife is reluctant to discuss anything red with her husband.

For want of a better phrase the 'movement' is alive and well and stronger than before and that is not about violence, its about the desire to change. Minority reds.. lost for words

My wife has relatives in Hat Yai, Nakhon Sri Thammarat, Kanchanburi, Bangkok, Nonthaburi, Sukhothai, Langpang and Chiang Mai. Some of the northerners voted for TRT, but none of them vote for PT or attend Red rallies. However, since they're not from Issan I guess that they are not "true Thais".

Some of you Red Shirt cheerleaders need to visit the other 3/4s of Thailand occasionally. The Redshirts are NOT a majority.

Your reference to "true Thais" is rather misleading since the expression was originally used to exclude Southern Muslims and Lao people from the North East.It was also a way of differentiating Thais from Chinese immigrants and their descendants.

My own view is that "what my wife told me" comments are sometimes interesting but purely anecdotal.When we combine "what my wife told me" comments with a complete ignorance of recent political and historical background, I have to admit one's eyes glaze over.

Why anyone who differs from the received wisdom should be called " a Red shirt cheerleader " is puzzling.

I agree the Redshirts are not a majority but it's difficult to put a percentage on its support.I would say about 40% but who knows.It's become a very broad church now with much greater middle class support.

the Redshirt strongholds in the North and North East have a population of 22.3 million and 11.6 million respectively, almost exactly 50% of the total Thai population.Of course not everybody by any manner of speaking is A red supporter in these regions.What these numbers do mean however ...well, I don't need to spell it out yet again

We'll know how afraid the reds are of elections by seeing how violent they are this Songkran. If they act up again it will be because they NEED to get an election postponed.

Sean Boonpracong, the old UDD spokesman, put it to Pongthep & Suranand that many red shirts are losing confidence in the parliamentary system and might not bother voting all together.

I don't really get the argument the reds are afraid of elections.In fact it doesn't make any sense.The elite has shown that it is not prepared to tolerate the choice of the Thai people unless it coincides with their own interests.Hence the criminal coup,the rigged constitution supplanting the excellent 1997 version, the "direction" given to the courts, heavy handed military and government propaganda, fatuous "philosophies" propagated to keep the majority in their place, support for the fascist PAD and its plan to disenfranchise the majority etc etc.Those who read history will know this already.In short it is the elite that's afraid of elections hence the record of trying to manipulate the outcome.

As it happens all the signs are that the Dems and PTP will be level pegging and one assumes the former will be able to stitch up a deal in time honoured fashion with Newin and the smaller parties.Dems also benefit from weak PTP leadership and the impressive Abhisit/Korn pairing.Above all, and noting Hammered's perceptive comment elsewhere on food prices, the economy is in good shape.I feel therefore the Dems will do better than last time and the PTP worse.Thus I dont see that the elite really has to do much at all this time since all the signs are the status quo will remain.

Incidentally, purely subjective of course but so are all opinions on this forum, I don't feel there is much resentment among most Thais at red "outrages".Those who feel angry are those who detested the Thaksinite/PPP/Red factions anyway.

Even if I'm right the outcome will result in a government very similar to the current one, none of the underlying problems will have been solved.So what's new?

Fantastic report, Inquisitive.I'm sure many are very grateful to you for this.I was particularly impressed that you stressed the kindness and politeness of the interviewing panel - so typical of Thailand but not often commented on in the context of Immigration officials.Good luck with your application.

A GREAT line from the PM (whether you believe him or not!) ..... He needs to repeat it often and loudly, followed by highlighting the accomplishments of the Dems in real reform for the poor.

I would like to ask people to decide if they want a political party that tries to tackle their problems or a party that causes conflict and turns away from their problems or even makes them worse

Repeating often and loudly is some peoples idea of persuasion, not mine nor I think Abhisit's.It's a question of education really.

All political parties want to win elections and policies are adapted accordingly.The Democrats have "walked away with the Whigs' clothing" (an allusion for us Russell Group types) and are implementing the PPP populist measures although on a greater scale and cost.I don't blame them:it's what politicians do to win in any country.

Silly rhetoric is also a part of all political campaigns.Why should any political party that wants to do well turn away from peoples problems or want to make them worse?

Thanks for the advice, but I'll stick to what I've always done which is posting by following the forum rules and guidelines.

If the rules change, then I would be all to happy to change with them.

I am hoping that you were not entirely straight faced when you made these comments!

Some guys here do not act solely and exclusively as a people blinded by Mark's appearance or attractiveness.

Some guys here are acting and reasoning in the comments very brave, very courageously, defending current Government as if something in their lives depends on the survival of the PM in power.

As servants. So sad and self humiliating acting.

We could see in establishing of this government (and before the end of the Democrat's campaign) a very few foreigners.

It is very likely that some of them having job to posting here on TV, to give about their employer(dems) such biased and unrealistic comments but they do very poorly job here and should not be paid for such sloppy work as performed here.

So, if all these posters you are saying that are paid to post are still here after elections, will you give up on your accusations?

It always makes me laugh to read about these "paid to post" accusations.As though any Thai politician cares one way or another what we say.Beware of the time when being member of the forum starts to swallow up too much of one's life - it can have a shattering effect on one's judgement.

Thanks for the advice, but I'll stick to what I've always done which is posting by following the forum rules and guidelines.

If the rules change, then I would be all to happy to change with them.

You will be pleased/shocked/flabbergasted (please delete which words don't apply) to hear that I think your interpretation is completely correct.

My only comment is that if not quoting a whole post and someone makes a persuasive case that the deleted part has some relevance, one should be prepared to acknowledge that (though obviously in deleting part of the post one has does one's best to ensure that the quoted part doesn't become distorted)

You might explain forum policy to one of your ideological mates who never fails to complain when I cut his posts down when quoting.

There have been reports linking the red shirts to Maoist tactics. One of which, in the propaganda side of things, is to repeat a simple message constantly.

And what reports were those?

In any case if, on the subject of propaganda, regurgitating a fatuous and simpleminded message repeatedly, I don't think the Redshirts are the only or even the main offenders in Thailand.

Someone asks for references to other Uni's resistance to the pro-Thaksin red shirt "movement" ... it gets answered (directly!) and yet it isn't good enough? I would assume the reason is, that without the students that the "catalyst" factor is shown for what it really is .. a money factor.

If you believe the question can be addressed by a long list of stale press cuttings that's somewhat surprising.I assumed for all our differences you were comfortable with reasoned analysis.

Again there's a germ of an interesting discussion here (political attitudes of Thai students) and one on which I have an open mind.

The US fought a revolution, a civil war........

Is this the first step to real democracy for Thailand? I cannot think of many countries who have progressed to their current democracy without a blood letting. Hide your head in the sand. As posters on here, we farangs have our differences of opinion but we will have no effect on the outcome of this nation. All the signs are there, we have had warnings, what will happen will happen.

Australia did.

Before Thailand moves to a "real democracy", they need to find a leader that wants it.

If the red shirts get their leader (Thaksin) back in power, or if it is to be any of their current leaders, that won't be a change to a democracy that they say they want. That will just be more of the same shit that Thailand has had for 80 years.

The only way to get real democracy in Thailand, is to get rid of (or at least severely restrict) corruption. This won't come about by having the red shirt leaders leading the country.

Australia's not a good example because it inherited democracy lock, stock and barrel from the UK.

South Korea is a better example and what is more has tamed its army's political ambitions.

A catalyst is a catalyst (i.e it changes history), and doesn't become irrelevant after ten years any more than the French Revolution of the late eighteenth century has become irrelevant.

And then:

It's a matter for reasonable debate about 1932:some would say that the last forty years have seen the achievements of 1932 compromised or even reversed.

So to sum up: a catalyst or event doesn't become irrelevant. Unless jayboy has a political bias to claim it does.

I suppose you understand what you're saying here.I don't.

Another good post by Ricardo.

I disagree.

A catalyst is a catalyst (i.e it changes history), and doesn't become irrelevant after ten years any more than the French Revolution of the late eighteenth century has become irrelevant.It's a matter for reasonable debate about 1932:some would say that the last forty years have seen the achievements of 1932 compromised or even reversed.

A coup seems highly unlikely (so I disagree with Termad) because of the extreme unpopularity, corruption and incompetence of the military - hard to sell at home or abroad.The smarter representatives of the elite realised this and have sought to frustrate the will of the Thai people in other ways, notably the judicialisation of politics.On the other hand one never knows.Highly respected commentators such as Chris Baker tentatively raise the possibility that the fascist remnants of the PAD were encouraged by elements of the military to manafacture the crisis with Cambodia as a pretext for a military takeover.I doubt this but I do believe there are many in the elite who are terrified of an election result which would permit some kind of Thaksin re entry.

The unpredictable aspect is the sheer arrogance and stupidity of the military.Might they do something that provided "sutjai" but was very much against its self interest?One thinks in this context not only of a possible coup but also the absurd initiative to spend billions of Baht on Prem's pet project on strengthening the cavalry representation in the North East

Pacified? You don't pacify law-breakers and terrorists.

That's no way to talk about the Thai army.Sure they launched an illegal coup and then pardoned themselves.Ok they are thoroughly corrupt and incompetent but "terrorist" is too harsh a term.

The trouble is that the PAD movement has the support of a number of foreign "useful fools", as Lenin called them in the context of the horrors of the Soviet Union.One wouldn't compare the two in all respects of course but for some there is no crime, no lie, no abuse that wouldn't attract support, albeit guarded, if it could be lined up against the Redshirts and the arch demon Thaksin.In the case of the elite and their mainly Sino Thai middle class hangers on this is in some ways understandable (if not entirely rational because a fairer and more peaceful Thailand benefits everybody).However for some their objectivity is long gone having been consumed by hatred and in some cases fear.Thailand desperately needs a commentator with the honesty and vision of George Orwell, someone who despises Thaksin but can see and describe the repulsiveness of the elite forces ranged against the movement Thaksin started

It's more surprising that some foreigners go down this line.There is a case to be made against "rule by the mob", but it involves conceding some ground and understanding what is meant by enlightened self interest.Again with some foreigners I have been astonished to find out how appallingly ignorant many are of recent Thai history.

The trouble is that the UDD / red-shirt movement has the support of a number of foreign "useful fools". For some indeed there has been no crime except the current government, slaughter and massacring poor peaceful protesters. Sino-Thai k. Thaksin is innocent of any and all. For some objectivity has never ever been either a goal, or even a necessary objective. Thailand really needs people who can be objective, independent of any colour; who can see the repulsiveness of all who try to profit from the ignorant, poor masses.

There is no case to accept 'rule by the mob' unless you want to promote anarchy. It is indeed appalling how ignorant lots of people are about recent Thai history and all its finesses so totally different from Western way of thinking; and therefor automatically condemned as not understood.

Way to go, jayboy

Yes of course there are foreigners who have a naive and simplistic view of the Redshirts.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be accountability for the deaths of civilians in the confrontation last year.

I thought I made it clear I detest mob rule.I don't really understand your last sentence.Are you saying that Thailand is "different" and normal ways of analysing political issues and differences don't apply here?

Probably because the airport was well over 2 years ago...before either of us were members.

Yeah, sure.

But in any case I was talking about the apologists for yellow reactionaries, repression, feudalism and military hegemony generally - not you personally.However if the cap fits...

Redshirt demonstrations are no doubt inconvenient but presumably (I'm guessing now) will wind down after the forthcoming elections assuming it's fairly conducted.

In that regard, equal action by the authorities should be equal and without the dreaded "double standards."

Didn't hear so much about equal treatment when the yellow mob and its quasi fascist leadership was occupying key Bangkok locations and airport.Still progress of sorts I suppose.

It was the PPP, who interestingly enough given your un-verified allegations, had one of their own, People Power Party MP Jumpot Bunyai, proposing to Parliament in August 2008 a draft amendment to Article 112 of the Criminal Code seeking to increase penalties for lese majeste offences.

Exactly.The PPP and its successors are no better than the Democrats in shameful abuse of the LM law.The sooner it is reformed (my preference) or off the statute books the better.

The agonising and frustrating aspect is that its abuse, leveraged up under Abhisit, has had the opposite effect of what the law is intended for.

Hmmm according to the board of the AoT it is FACT that the AoT guy on the ground closed it. That he was wrong to do so. The AoT would have been far better off having blamed the PAD, and thus being able to sue for damages, but they didn't.

I am not surprised that you are using this as another excuse to attack a poster though.

To identify dishonesty is not attacking another poster.Anyway we are used to your resorting to this argument when you are on weak ground.

I dare say there is an audience for your theory that AOT is to blame for the airport closure.You didn't mention - but Siripon did - the suggestion there was a Redshirt influence on the decision.

Suffice it to say the Thai courts, the Prime Minister, International Safety Authorities, the local and international media etc etc all take a different view.

JayBoy and Oberkommando >> Which PTP MP's are charged with LM? Which former PPP MP's are under investigation for it?

I'm not sure why you're asking me this.I neither know nor care.

One wonders what audience this kind of dishonesty is aimed at?

Indeed, it is tiresome.

I personally witnessed armed men closing off the roads to the airport before I flew out, and only later was the airport closed after yellow-shirts had stormed the main terminal building and built a perimeter around the whole area.

The trouble is that the PAD movement has the support of a number of foreign "useful fools", as Lenin called them in the context of the horrors of the Soviet Union.One wouldn't compare the two in all respects of course but for some there is no crime, no lie, no abuse that wouldn't attract support, albeit guarded, if it could be lined up against the Redshirts and the arch demon Thaksin.In the case of the elite and their mainly Sino Thai middle class hangers on this is in some ways understandable (if not entirely rational because a fairer and more peaceful Thailand benefits everybody).However for some their objectivity is long gone having been consumed by hatred and in some cases fear.Thailand desperately needs a commentator with the honesty and vision of George Orwell, someone who despises Thaksin but can see and describe the repulsiveness of the elite forces ranged against the movement Thaksin started

It's more surprising that some foreigners go down this line.There is a case to be made against "rule by the mob", but it involves conceding some ground and understanding what is meant by enlightened self interest.Again with some foreigners I have been astonished to find out how appallingly ignorant many are of recent Thai history.

What? and incur the wrath of some of antagonizing, petty bickerer passing through who will post that

So you aren't going to make any recommendations on appropriate books.It wasn't a wind up: I was genuinely interested to know what informed a different point of view.