scratt

The PAD wants to take away voting rights from the poor. How Democratic is that?

About as democratic as the PPP expecting to be able to buy votes, steal land, control the courts, and make it's own uneducated and corrupt officials the new ruling elite. Oh, and bring a convicted criminal back to power indefinitely... not to mention launch and support guerilla style attacks on protestors, and street vendors, businesses etc. etc. etc. and not to mention organize and fund a rally to try and intimidate the constitutional court, which is going to bring an end to PADs protests when it rules the government illegal.....

I'd say the PAD (at worst) is the lesser of two evils.

The one flaw in all your arguments is that if the police and the military are being held back by some other action / or lack of action then that itself proves that the actions of PAD are seen as being in the best interest of the country. End of story. Sorry if it costs you some money, or messes up a few holidays, or unbalances your 'chi'... at the end of the day this is about the future of a country, and it's people. So tough, get over it.

What is it to you?? Relax, it is non of your business

To the people living off their pension here surely it is none of their business. To others, who have businesses here, many of them doing international transactions with import and export, it is very much their business.

I thought you were just a professional troll. You mean you actually have a business here?

Because I do too.. One that involves both tourism and shipping. Both operating just fine. We simply work with what is available, and allow the country which is gracious enough to have us as guests deal with things in its own way..

Reading through your posts over the last few days you actually say nothing. Your comments are more akin to a rather large wooden spoon trying to stir a pot... If I were you I would put just 50% of the effort you put into typing your toxic comments into working thorough these temporary issues and you might be surprised what you can achieve.

I have to say I find it quite amusing that the best the government can come up with after a week of this is a rival rally!

So their only "solution" is to do something which is a weak attempt to further polarize the country!

Bravo!

I have to say I find it quite amusing that the best the government can come up with after a week of this is a rival rally!

So their only "solution" is to do something which is a weak attempt to further polarize the country!

Bravo!

The PAD have said from day one the airports are free to operate. THey will not stand in the way of that.

THe only people blocking access to the airport are the police and the AOT. THe latter seems more efficient than the police at that.

The AOT, towing the line for the PPP, have closed the airports.

As always corrupt governments will make hay by trying to escalate a problem and then point the finger at their opposition.

People can get in and out of Thailand, and they could even do it at BKK airports if the "government" would stop distorting the truth to try and get themselves out of a no-win situation any way they see possible..

They are grasping at straws and they should be ashamed of their selfish actions.

Changing the subject a little. The funniest thing I saw all day were the scenes where the PAD protestors took the riot shields from the police vans. Priceless.

According to PAD leaders, they are now threatening to seize seaports next.

You really are a troll!

The wailing and moaning, venom and bile of the anti-PAD people in these threads is akin to the exorcism of demons IMO.

Roll on the 2nd of December....

Let me get this straight....

The shutting of the airport is costing electronics firms 30 Million $$ per day?

Why o why do the airports bother with tourists, if the shipping of computer chips in and out of Thailand is so lucrative?

And the tourism figures sound like some mad police estimate for the "street price" of drugs when a huge haul is pulled in...

And the icing on the cake is a convicted criminal, on the run from the Thai authorities, lecturing the PAD on respecting the law!!

TiT

:D

i am sorry to say this, but i will. To all Thai who reads this forum: Thailand is a joke throughout the world. No one can ever justify the seizure of an international airport . You messing with those that give you your life and they are going to go away.

I am an expat living in Thailand, and I just want to take this opportunity to apologize to the Thai people for this kind of moronic post.

.. some text ..

I doubt any political party that wants to appoint 70% of the government seats will accept an election that doesn't go according their wishes.

Somone else kindly cleared up the stuff you didn't know about how the military works..

But you also need to actually stop listening to the red-shirt brigade and do some research of your own.

It's been a long time since the PAD wanted to appoint any of the government.

A lot of people in these threads need to actually bother to research the subject matter they are discussing *before* weighing in with ill informed opinions, and quit repeating what they hear other ill informed people say.

Thailand has made the list of the Top 20 Most Dangerous Places as compiled by the Telegraph newspaper of London.

The latest edition of the list puts Thailand as the seventh most-dangerous spot for travellers behind Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, South Africa, Somalia and Sudan. Thailand is said to be more dangerous than Colombia and Haiti at the moment.

Well that is just stupid.

Frankly I'd feel safer even with this weeks events going out in the evening in Bangkok, than I would in Manchester or London.

So where was India, or Pakistan, out of interest?

...their actions become dangerous when armed police march in if they don't heed the warnings to leave.

Right.

Because sitting on the floor in a peaceful protest is really dangerous behavior!

You do know it's illegal to smoke dope here, don't you?

If you can't see the dangerous game being played out here then there is nothing more to say. It seems to me that the PAD is saying they don't want violence. If that truly is the case they will leave before violence happens. I am not saying they should be gunned down. I am saying it would be sort of dangerous to have old women and children sitting around with you and wait to be gunned down. Now if you had your kids in that situation in the west you would probably lose them as this would be perceived as child endangerment. If sitting on the floor in peace is not dangerous why are some of them armed?

Calling for a coup and taking over an airport while armed in most countries would be considered dangerous. If this ends badly come back and say you didn't understand the danger. That is all I have to say to you so feel free to have the last word.

Except that they are not instigating the violence. You cannot turn it around when others commit the violence! Duh!

Except that they have no weapons.

Except that Thailand is *not* most countries.

I could go on...

I have seen repeatedly people say that PPP has "thugs" but PAD has "supporters and protesters"

I have also read how PPP carrys out "vote buying" but PAD "compensates supporters for lost earnings"

Or should we just be saying the PPP *are* thugs?

The easiest way out of the current deadlock is new elections.

The question is: why the current government refuses to call for the new elections, if they are so sure in the outcome?

Is it because they want to remove the vote-fraud rule from the constitution first?

Hmmmm.. Do ya think so?

Now there's an idea!!

...their actions become dangerous when armed police march in if they don't heed the warnings to leave.

Right.

Because sitting on the floor in a peaceful protest is really dangerous behavior!

You do know it's illegal to smoke dope here, don't you?

Some people would say PAD need to leave

Regardless of my leanings towards PAD, the simple fact is that any government that can let a situation get to this point is obviously unfit to manage the country.

You must be able to see that, surely?

I really don't care either way. If the PPP steps down and then PAD leaves fine. If PAD leaves on it's own great. My only requirement you see is that PAD needs to leave. That is what needs to happen to resume flights.

you must be able to see that, surely?

Frankly, I couldn't give a dam_n about flights. They are inconsequential in this equation.

This just in the police have reported that the PAD are paying their protesters and guards(500 Baht) The have also confiscated weapons from the PAD and are showing them on Thai TV now. I can't wait for the PAD supporters to deny these reports. Wake up guys the PAD have only one goal and they will not negotiate on this with anyone. The PM must resign and the PPP must leave. So you can see that no matter who tries to talk with Sondhi or his cronies they will not concede and only violence will end this siege I am sorry to admit.

Hmmm.. Replace the chief of police with a cronie, and then violence ensues..

So we know who the real hero is, and that this is truly a Thaksin run sham.

Heavily-armed police block main road to Bangkok airport

At 6:55 pm Friday, police equipped with M 16 assault rifles were deployed to block a main road to the Suvarnahbhumi International Airport.

Police set up a road block on the Lard Krabang- Suvarnabhumi Road and did not allow any vehicle to pass through.

The real PPP is unmasked.

Some people would say PAD need to leave

Regardless of my leanings towards PAD, the simple fact is that any government that can let a situation get to this point is obviously unfit to manage the country.

You must be able to see that, surely?

ASTV: Kowit Orders Crackdown at 8 p.m.

This gets more and more like a WhiteHall farce every minute!

Oooo.. They used the word 'Crackdown', it must be serious...

Next they'll invoke the 'War on Terror'...

The PPP need to call elections, and give this up. It's over.

It's been a week, and the international airport is still closed! How could anyone ever take this particular bunch of fools seriously ever again? Really?

I have seen repeatedly people say that PPP has "thugs" but PAD has "supporters and protesters"

I have also read how PPP carrys out "vote buying" but PAD "compensates supporters for lost earnings"

But both those statements are correct. Why should we correct ourselves.

Or should we just be saying the PPP *are* thugs?

The Constitution Court Friday ordered the People Power Party, Chart Thai Party and Matchima Tipataya Party

to deliver their closing statement in the party-dissolution case against them on December 2. (the Nation, just now)

- I'm NOT in favour of coups, 'new politics', airport occupations, nor lynch-mobs.

However, this DOESN'T have to end in blood OR a coup OR a lynching (if some were permitted).

All because the protesters are reprehensibly entrenched and the Govt refuses to call elections, or the PM to simply resign...

The Govt WON'T simply call elections to avoid bloodshed and to avoid a potentially larger civil conflict, WHY?

because the democratically elected Govt MUST remove vote-fraud rules from the constitution FIRST to survive...

(only in a Thai 'democracy' could this be permissible) Last house session to do so? Dec 9 (at Somchai's house). Dissolution verdict? Possibly Dec 15 = tic-toc...

What a sad lynch-mob mentality (by some)... in effect cyber-shouting "jump! jump! (shoot-shoot) !!!!"

(with saliva spilling over keyboards in anticipation...) Geezuz...

Elections are the easiest way out of the immediate impasse, if not, a violent dispersal will bring a coup and a prolonged conflict emerges

... this time with the reds and their sponsor Thaksin which will make this conflict look like Disneyland (remember new years 06 for starters) ...

The airports MUST be re-opened ASAP as many people desperately do NEED to get in/out for medical or business reasons,

and a whole host of other essential travel reasons, not to mention the obvious exponential mounting costs to tourism

and every other sector of the economy from freight to pubs/hotels and on and on and on. HowTo without creating a larger conflict?

Simple, call an election. Then let the courts deal with the ensuing fall-out on both sides. Meanwhile, we can all get back to work, or holiday.

EDIT/to add: Last house session to do so? Dec 9 (at Somchai's house). Dissolution verdict? Possibly Dec 15 = tic-toc...

Have the PAD said that they would call off their 'demonstrations' if new elections are held?

That would be a bit surprising given that the PAD has openly displayed their contempt for the electoral process.

While 'new politics' is not getting much attention these days, a protester interviewed last week- not a leader of the PAD- just a guy in its ranks- emphatically stated that there would be no withdrawl from Govt House until New Politics is initiated- he didn't elaborate- but he certainly gave the impression that he was speaking the party line-

I expect that the PAD is fully aware that new elections will very possibly see a return to the current situation- albeit with a few different faces.

Also, it might be hard to explain to the red shirts why the PAD was able to extort the dissolution of the government that they elected and supported- with no mandate beyond their mob actions.

It sets, I think, a very dangerous precedent- as if there aren't enough antidemocratic precedents in this country.

Blaze in likelihood we will see the PPP disolved this coming week which will create a constitutional crisis as outlined by Crispin previously. The timing seems "right" for this to happen. The question is what comes after this. I dont expect the PAD to get what they want. In fact I expect the PAD to be well and truly sacriifced now they have "shown their true colours" and can longe rbe lnked to the good people of the bureacracy. The bigger question on what comes after is: is there a faction or lump of the PPP which will go along with things. A national unity government is the most likely scenario and imposed one at that. If it includes some PPP it might not be too bad in terms of disunity. If it doesnt things will be rocky.

I also doubt we will see mass civil uprisings in PPP areas but the red side will certainly not take their "defeat" lying down.

If things come to conclusion this coming week, it could be a rocky road indeed but depending on what comes after it need not be as bad in terms of violence as expected. Of course unless some democratic realignment occurs like 30-40 PPP disolved join the Dems and others in a new coalition we will see a forced reduction in democracy. What comes after next week will probably be more critical than what happens today or tomorrow assuming a disolution is now imminent, and of course the court could decide the other way.

Oh I think that PPP people can be found who will bite the bullet and play ball with an appointed interim gov't. But I also think that feelings in the ardent pro Thaksin camp will be inflamed- they will interpret this as a denial of their electoral choice- a denial fostered by the courts- which they already are suspicious of.

They are, no doubt, more politically aware- propagandized if you like- than they were three years ago- They can connect the dots - or at least the ones I have talked to can. This will be tanatmount to a coup- a coup by the courts- and they have already said they will not allow that. But I may be over estimating their committment.

I also wonder how the PAD leadership will react to finding the polical situation not a whole lot different than it was immediately after the coup- they will be full of their own power- two coups- one by the military- one by the courts (or so they might interpret it given the timing) in three years- and they might very well say- why stop now? New Politics or Bust!

I bet th epopulist polices that pour out of an appou inted government will defy all logic of a weakening economy too. To date next years budget has not really even been agreed too. I wondr if all the court challenges will wilt.

Excellent prediction hammered- I share it. Buy off EVERYBODY- make EVERYBODY happy. Hilarious- but spot on...

Also Hammered- referring to the sacrifice of the PAD leadership- a guy whose name you know but I forget- interviewed frequently on BBC or CNN- made an odd statement- he said that the very most powerful backers of the PAD stand to lose big time- at first I didn't catch his (carefully camouledged) drift- but now- Yes- I see - and he's right- those backers might have decided that Sondhi and Chamlong are loose canons- and have now placed THEM in a compromising position. A situation that under NO circumstances can be allowedl. Bye Bye Sondhi.

I think we can see where this could go but the question remains will it. This is still the byzantine world of Thai politcs and we could all awake tomorrow to find another twist just to surpise us.

EDIT : Not intended to be linked to this quote at all!! Browser is borked!! Sorry.

It is UNSTABLE. What planet are you living on?

Unstable in political terms...Yes..but does that mean the PAD is going to break down my hotel door and and strangle me with a yellow shirt..should i and every other farang leave the country by train??

If you want to live in a country that respects democracy, personal freedom and the rule of law you should leave any way you can. None of those three items apply to Thailand. And if you have children here, do you want them to live in a place with no sunshine laws, where information to the public from ALL public agencies is restricted and where they can't go more than five years without a coup? Get on that train brutha! I'm leaving by plane in the next few weeks when flights start running. I started packing today. NO KIDDING.

Are you having a garage sale?

yeah buddy. I'll be selling my desktop Dell that I bought in December, my Honda City (three years old) a TV and other sundries. You can mail me if you're interested.

actually old mate,since there are no flights, how much do you want for that honda?..will it get me to loas?...id prefer to have a thai style of holiday as it was 50 years ago

I offer 80.000 for everything together.

Not only the supporter of a terrorist organization, now also a war profiteur, are we?

How about 1,000 Baht for every day the current government stays in power.... I'll setup a direct payment on the 1st of each month, starting December 1st just to get you going....

No, you misunderstand.

I am talking about IQ tests and un-partisan politcal awareness.

Neither require any more than the ability to talk / listen and / or read / write.

Let’s see your IQ test would just be:

Thai person walks into testing room, instructor says please site down. Tester sits down, a piece of paper says "write your name", the tester writes his/her name. Instructor says "please state your name", tester says "My name is XXXX". Instructor says "okay you can read/write and listen... You passed!!!!"

Is that all you want? Or do you want a true IQ test that asks questions including science, history, math, comprehensive reading? If you want a true IQ test then my first points are all valid, and even if you don’t realize it you a for class segregation .

I think you need to go and read wikipedia or something, and then come back and discuss IQ properly.

oh God it is stuff like this that makes it so embarassing to do business as a Westerner in SE Asia sometimes.

Do you punctuate, or capitalize, or spell check any of your 'business' documents?

As you obviously don't do that when posting online.

And do you actually enter into discussions in your business, or just slag people off you disagree with?

I am guessing you don't run a huge multi-national in any case.

The problem with your weighted vote based on a test is this: The rich well educated Thais don't represent all of Thailand. The only way to get a good education in Thailand requires paying an "international" school, meaning the poorest people's kids don't stand a chance, so because they are poor you want to exclude their vote? What do you think will happen when the "rich" are the only ones allowed to vote? They will vote for people and laws that will help them and allow them to continue to step on the "poor"....

You are condoning class segregation.

No, you misunderstand.

I am talking about IQ tests and un-partisan politcal awareness.

Neither require any more than the ability to talk / listen and / or read / write.

Oh, and lets add some educational requirements.

Absolutely. That is essential.

To quote Borat.. anything else is 'like let monkey fly airplane... very very dangerous'.

Source: Editorial Opinion from The Straits Times - 28 November 2008

It is amazing to me that governments and newspapers in the west still choose to cling to un-truths to try and bolster up their own claims that democracy (as imagined by western politicians) works.

The amazing thing about Thailand right now is that the whole airport standoff basically comes down to two arguments. One about the freedom to protest, and the other about that protest blocking other people's freedom to travel. In the US, UK or anywhere else in the world these people would have been forcibly and violently removed from the airports within hours. Thailand has a better overall idea of the basic tenets of freedom, democracy and respect for your fellow man than any other country I have ever lived in. Bravo.

Why do I say that? Well, in the west 'freedom' and 'democracy' loosely translated means 'we must keep the financial machine running'. Here in Thailand the country (accidentally or by design) has chosen that this issue is more important than keeping part of 'the financial machine running'. They have chosen to solve the problem, one way or the other, with everyones input and a free and open exchange of views, rather than closing down the people that are causing the country discomfort in the name of big business, under the guise of 'democracy'.

The PAD are not making violent protests. Although that article does not say that, several news channels glibly report PAD, bombs, and violence in the same breath. The only violence is coming from the Red Shirts.

The Straits article makes an erroneous claim that PAD want 25% of the electorate chosen by methods other than voting. i.e. To be appointed. This is no longer the case. PAD have abandoned this idea as it was unpopular. Showing very clearly that PAD, unlike the current 'government' (if you can call them that), do actually listen to people..

I for one am all for people having different weighting applied to their votes, or having some portion of government appointed by a monarch, or the judiciary. Because having government voted in by a mass majority who have their vote bought is far worse than what PAD initially suggested. No matter, anyway, they have withdrawn the suggestion and now support 100% voted in governments.

I personally would support a weighted voting system, where a test administered to every member of society would give their vote a specific value based on their un-partisan political awareness, and IQ. It would stop the sort of farce we have had in Thailand with the PPP, and the sort of farce that happened in the USA for the last 8 years.

Stupid people, and I am not saying that about people in the north of Thailand - rather middle Americans - and people who's vote can be bought should not be aloud to vote. Period.

I think it is better for tourism, if the elected government is seen to be strong enough to direct the police/army to remove the protesters from ALL of the places it occupies.

The current perception is that Thailand has "Mob Rule", this is no good for any trade be it tourism, business or anything else!

FF

The problem is the current government is NOT strong enough to direct the police and army.

So would you prefer a sham? How safe would that be?

It's game over. The government needs to go.

what is this about?

illegal wood cutting and drugs trade ... that's what the PAD is really after ... everything else is just blah

Yeah. Right. Go back to school!

As long as there are elections and as long as the rural majority is allowed to vote, the elected governments will be unacceptable to the PAD.

As long as the rural majority can be bought off for 500 Baht a vote it will be unacceptable to PAD.

It's much easier to buy a few million people's votes for 500 Baht a pop than say a few thousand Bangkokians vote for several million each... You cannot have a government elected on the back of bribery. That is not democracy.