KevinBloodyWilson

less cover-ups of atrocities, such as the Tak Bai incident, where nearly 100 young Muslim men died while in military custody.

Unfortunately the white wash post mortem inquiry happened while Aphasit was at the helm.

So much for it being Thaksin's fault. The army answers to the owner and feels free to change jockeys when it wishes. This is the house that Jack built.

Failed State in relationship to what? How do we actually measure that in the modern world? I would put these things as yard sticks:

1) quality of life for the majority (covers a lot of things that are hard to measure)

2) sustainable economy (meaning provides for presents needs without impairing needs of future generations)

3) rule of law established

4) democracy (true democracy)

Short answer: Yes.

Yes good points, so the US is also a failed state then, or will be shortly.

Perhaps all states are in a process of decline and will eventually fail. Like groups, they form, storm, norm and perform, then they adjourn and mourn, after which they transform.

The Thai state is very young - only since 1932, when Pridi and Phibun led a coup against absolute monarchy. A stable democratic form of government couldn't be maintained and military dictatorship became the norm until after 1973, when a series of elected governments came and went, with coups d'etat punctuating the period up to the early 90s. Performance has been patchy since then and Thaksin's was seen as the most energetic government. However, his norm (Thailand Inc and Shincorp hegemony) conflicted with that of the power elite (and many other people, especially in Bangkok and the South), so that government was "adjourned" by the 2006 coup. There is considerable mourning among the beneficiaries of the Thaksin regime, but much hostility to him and his government by others. New groups (PAD, UDD, Friends of Newin) have formed and would like to storm, but are not able to agree on norms; hence, Thailand is unable to perform in the way a stable group or state should.

The divisions seem irreconcilable, but the state has not reached "failed" status, simply an inability to function in keeping with its resources and potential. If it continues to be unable to norm and perform, a new group will form that will bring things together. Perhaps led by another Sarit - a saviour from Isaan, who will combine the backing of the army and the rural poor, but who will co-opt Chinese money, the Thai elite and the organizational sweep of the Democrat Party.

(The cases against Thaksin will be dropped on account of ill health and he will be allowed to return to Thailand to spend his last days, even if there are rather a lot of them. The new government will be sufficiently dictatorial and potentially brutal that PAD, UDD and others will heed the warnings and adopt a low profile.)

Even if Thailand stumbles it won't fail. Despite the obvious weaknesses in its schools and universities it has enough sufficiently well educated people to innovate, maintain and develop a productive society. There is enough money in Chinese hands and Thais know they have to fix their problems themselves. No benevolent outsider is going to ride in and they can't continue to rely on wise and paternal father-figures. They have nowhere to go. Everywhere outside Thailand is strange to Thais. There are no other Thai-speaking nations. Even the Lao, who are closest, don't want them. Before long there will be a catalyst and a catharsis. We'll hold on to our hats for a while, then a new process of political and civic forming, norming, etc. will be worked out.

Sorry for the rant. It just turned out that way.

Seemed like a good post to me, but there are other scenarios, including the Chinese one.

You said it in a round-about kind of a way, but I will say it directly - again Thais have no friends, and that is going to hurt them one day. USA is relocating away from Thailand, China is already here and agitating the hel_l out of things. Thailand will wakeup one day to realise that they have no friends, and worse, that they have pissed off too many people with long memories.

Thailand's great if you are a natural born sociopath like myself.

Have some sympathy. We just want to be left alone.

Why did I get a voice talking about liver, fava beans and a nice chianti when i read that?

Spooky.

How about this for another goofball generalization about human beings.

There are two kinds of expats in Thailand:

1. Those who realize each one is an individual with their own unique life story

2. Those who feel the need to put all of them into some kind of pidgeonhole based on superficial appearances

I agree with you so much. It is always and absolutely wrong to pidgeonhole people like that. Outrageous.

There are two kinds of expats in Thailand:

1. Those who realize each one is an individual with their own unique life story

2. Those who feel the need to put all of them into some kind of pidgeonhole based on superficial appearances

Ohh. Sorry

Maybe its you who is the crazy one.Anywhere in the world we chose who we have as friends and Thailand is no different.I have many expat friends here and long time tourists,and if they were horrible people then i would not be friends with them.Very rich and average friends all mix in and iw ouldnt swap them for you at any cost.

bye bye

Not sure who you were talking to but of course you are right. Generally we pick friends on the basis of them being like us and having similar opinions and values. That would mean that horrid people gravitate towards other horrid people, something we will all have seen happen.

Gad you have so many friends.

Thanks Kev,and the post was for the op.Good friends are worth their weight in gold and makes living very wonderful.also i think i am a great guy but have a bad temper sometimes,but not to friends.A good judge of character is useful in a strange country too and that includes my thai friends,but overall my 6 years stay has given me realy good mates.

And good luck to you. I agree with you.

Isn't great to have friends in high places!

I'd rather have high friends in great places.

It's really the two wrongs don't make a right principle. The TiT ways keep distorting all principles and institutions to the point that the whole and its parts become mangled beyond repair or recovery.

Thailand needs to throw in the towel and start again.

A friend of a friend once opined that Thailand would make a useful start by gathering all the police, all the military above the rank of captain, all the bureaucracy, all the judiciary, all the government from tambon level up, and put them is a sodding big boat, tow it out to sea and do a Rohingya on them. But with a few leaks punched in the hull(s).

Another friend wondered what the impact of world opinion would be about environmental pollution on that scale. Worse than the Exxon Valdez, so it's a non-starter.

Pity, I think it will take something that seismic to start putting right what is wrong in the Land of Scams.

According to Wiki, there are several definitions of the expression 'Failed State'. Some of those are:

1. [A country in which the] central government so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory; non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality; refugees and involuntary movement of populations; and sharp economic decline

2. ... a state that has been rendered ineffective (i.e., has nominal military/police control over its territory only in the sense of having no armed opposition groups directly challenging state authority; in short, the "no news is good news" approach) and is not able to enforce its laws uniformly because of high crime rates, extreme political corruption, an extensive informal market, impenetrable bureaucracy, judicial ineffectiveness, military interference in politics, cultural situations in which traditional leaders wield more power than the state over a certain area but do not compete with the state, or a number of other factors.

3. A state could be said to "succeed" if it maintains, in the words of Max Weber, a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force within its borders. When this is broken (e.g., through the dominant presence of warlords, paramilitary groups, or terrorism), the very existence of the state becomes dubious, and the state becomes a failed state.

By any and all of these definitions, there seems to be a case for saying that Thailand is already a failed state.

Opinions?

Are you sure that you are taking about Thailand and not the USA?

Quite sure.

Gave up on the USA years ago - when they re-elected Ronnie Raygun and I realised it wasn't an accident.

Hitler killed many millions of innocent people for their religious beliefs and for being gay.

Thaksin tried to get rid of a few thousand speed and heroin dealers. The comparisons end there.

Anyone who tries to compare the two leaders is sick in the head.

Quite.

Let me know when PAD are prosecuted for shutting down the airport last year and I will review the views and beliefs I have today.

The prosecutor cannot act against the PAD until he gets the report from the police, they're waiting for that now.

:D

Vote the choice that is the CLOSEST to how you feel, it does not have to be EXACTLY how you feel.

Another poster on another thread asserted (incorrectly I believe) that most foreigners who are anti-Thaksin/anti red ALSO are pro PAD/pro yellow.

This poll is designed to ferret out the truth about this.

For anti-Thaksin/anti-red people ONLY. I hope the reason for that is obvious in the purpose of this poll. I have included one pro-Thaksin choice for the redshirt lovers who feel the need to vote here, even though their vote is irrelevant in this context.

My compliments sir, a very good and useful post/topic.

I rented an apartment on Soi PiPat on Convent in Silom, the owner was a Thai Lady and she was a very nice Hi-So women. I remember her husband was relate to Thai royalty in someway. anyway, they would not let or rent to Thai nationals. only white folk lived there and a few Japs. so they are not all racist against foreigners.

Still racist though. Just not against foreigners.

When I clicked on the link to this thread I got an error message: IPS Driver Error

Anyone else get this? I think it's being blocked. Government doesn't want us talking about their hardware purchases?

I'm in now by a workaround.

Yes, I've been getting it all day. I suspect it is a database problem on the TV server, or a problem with the ISP DNS servers (though I think that is unlikely). Unlikely to be surveillance imho.

The obvious comparisons between Thaksin, and Hitler at various times in his life,

do keep coming up in discussion, so that does mean those parallels are observed

by more than just the one observer, but a series of observers from disparate backgrounds.

That repetition coupled with this disparity of view points, gives the validity to the juxtaposition.

Still in there slugging away

Most people make comparisons with Hitler, not because of historical similarities but because of a hysterical wish to express an insult. The connotation of the name Hitler has become so bad that is is almost synonymous with the antichrist.

Comparing anyone with Hitler represents the triumph of emotion over rationalism, it has nothing whatever to do with any actual similarities, and frankly, it is a childish argument to suggest that there are real similarities.

Well, in hindisght, it was obvious really.

The AEC, albeit a tool of the junta, was not incompetent - especially Jaruvan and Kaewsan. If they prosecuted (and they did), then it was watertight, and if one was guilty they were all guilty

But... Newin is protected. So 40-odd probable criminals go free so that the Democrat government doesn't implode. And Newin (when asked for a comment) says his only job is to protect the monarchy until his last breath. Under the circs, that is pretty much what I would say too.

Now. What was it that Animatic was telling me about Newin being prosecuted meaning that Thailand can't be a failed state?

Perhaps they should have that poll about the judiciary being trusted more than the army and the police again. Here in Isaan, the mood among those I have spoken to is one of is one of stunned disbelief.

What nobosy has asked yet, is what does this say about the AEC? About the junta? About Thaksin's government? Even the chance to convict Thaksin . either in fact or in world opinion took second place t preserving Abhisit's pretty ass.

TiT

Maybe its you who is the crazy one.Anywhere in the world we chose who we have as friends and Thailand is no different.I have many expat friends here and long time tourists,and if they were horrible people then i would not be friends with them.Very rich and average friends all mix in and iw ouldnt swap them for you at any cost.

bye bye

Not sure who you were talking to but of course you are right. Generally we pick friends on the basis of them being like us and having similar opinions and values. That would mean that horrid people gravitate towards other horrid people, something we will all have seen happen.

Gad you have so many friends.

There is a lot of variety of expats but in general I get the sense that people who bail out of their native lands will tend to be bitter and critical of their home countries due to lack of success etc. If things are going well on a financial and personal level then why leave for a foreign land? They set off for new starts and in the beginning are overly positive about the new location. They might even go out of their way to convince people(on websites etc) how much better the new country is than their old country. At this point they are in the earlier denial stages.

Unfortunately over time these expats realize they are repeating the same pattern of unsuccessful results and become discontent and increasingly bitter and critical all over again in the new country. Often they become bitter and critical on websites or to anyone who will listen to them. It's a vicious cycle that will be repeated over and over until they reprogram their subconscious self beliefs.

I know that this would apply to many but it cannot become a generalisation. For example, when I came here I left a 100,000UKP job as in interim management to retire early. I have very few regrets but it would be nice to see a few changes here and I believe that Thais would benefit more from those changes than ex-pats would.

Funnily enough I agree with a lot of what he said - just not the way he puts himself above all foreigners and paints them with such a broad brush. Nobodys perfect

Sadly the message was somewhat diluted by the hubris. Seemed like someone scratched at an old wound of some kind.

Not being a drinker or frequenter of venues awash with ladies of the night, I often struggled to meet expats of a similar mindset during my 7 years in the country. It does seem that if you are anything other than a walking cliché, that you don't really fit in on the local expat scene. It's not impossible, however, to find those with interests other than beer and bar girls; certainly not in Chiang Mai, where a local amateur dramatic scene is now flourishing and art and classical music scenes have been established for some time. If you aren't into either scenes then perhaps metaphysical pursuits are what floats your boat...again CM has an abundance of those. Life in LOS, is definitely what you make it, certainly in the cities.

That's interesting, I have been thinking of moving to CM. CHeers.

Oh stop your whining, Thailand is not even close to being a failed state (eg. North Korea, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan). Do you really think Thailand fits in that kind of company?

Opinion noted. Absence of rational argument noted.

It is what it is because I say it is what it is and if it wasn't what it is it would be because I said it wasn't what it is so there! (Johnny - aged 10)

First I would like to say very good post.

I came to Thailand since 1991 on holidays I loved the country.Everything was well within my comfort zone and cheap. Before Istarted coming here I was a Mexico vacationer. This beat Mexico hands down.

Now I have lived here 3 years and love it even more but cannot stand the foreigners here.

So many come here but donot want to be here I think. They come for cheap lifestyle and to be honest I think sex is the big draw for them.So many losers playing they are big shots.These guys donot want Thailand they just want to use and abuse it.Many want their foreign food, foreign homes,power for being white big nose people,they want to be revered.

Where else can lowlifes go and get such treatment.

Now I donot even give the time of day to most foreigners.

You sound just the type of judgemental, self rightious individual most expats seek to avoid. I wouldnt worry about giving your fellow expats the time of day as if they know your disposition then I am sure they wouldnt give you a kind look.

PS. OP an excellent post

Ouch! Something hit home!

Except the Saudi thing probably. I wonder if they called the police or assumed the police already knew about it...

(edited to remove the quote so the mods will love me).

Hitting students is illegal, although still practise on most schools. Believe it is not allowed since 2006.

The normal practice should begin to change in about 2040 then.

Henry, I would persue it for the sake of knowing the reason. You only spoke to the monkey, now contact the management office or whoever is in charge of lets. Bluff it and make out you want to meet to view an apartment and see what response you get and if it confirms your initial suspicions. If there are "none available" a quick search of Google should bring up if any are for sale/rent with agencies or on websites and have your wife call to see if they really are still available at this time.

The Thai hi-so are strange folk. On one hand they try to emulate the West with their phrases, education, holidays and materialism (but go tackily overboard) and on the other shun people who have less money and who are in any way different. The fakeness of these people when they meet each other is unbelievable and very wearing, as are their morals and ethics (treatment of maids, shopworkers and paramount desire to marry or befriend those with wealth above anything else).

Just yesterday there was a show on TV with a very rich Tomboy (40-something) in her palatial home with try-too-hard-to-look-like-Dynasty furnishings showing round the reporter while smooching her actress girlfriend. The girlfriend was absolutely stunning and no doubt not poor herself, but it was plainly obvious that because of this Tomboy's inherited wealth the actress was suddenly able to become lesbian for a while. With no shame as to her intentions. The tomboy openly said she liked to buy her girlfriends a car of their choice, in this case a BMW. The actress and so many like her are hardly different from the stereotypical sick buffalo girl, only that they are more beautiful and slightly less blatant...but for some unknown reason are not looked down on in society while a prostitute is. It's nearly accepted as normal because it's so common.

The normal and middle class Thais know that the rich or hi-so Thais will marry for more money than they have if possible, and when it fails will get a string of new partners based on the same criteria. No lessons learnt, it was the same two hundred years ago.

So true.

Good post, and good responses. I too wonder about the expats, I don't bother with most of them for a variety of reasons, chief among which is that I am not here for the same reason they are (fill in your own blanks here).

As for complaining, well, we all do that in one way or another. It is natural to want to bring about what we believe are improvements in our adopted home country. Giving a dam_n is important, so I personally give a dam_n. There is a lot that could improve, but what really irks me is the exploitation and injustice. I don't like to see blatant and rampant exploitation or injustice, they both rob us all of human dignity, but Thais do love to get power and then they feel obliged to exercise it - usually at the direct expense of one of their Thai 'brothers or sisters'. 'Thai unity' is the call, and the call is always bogus, what they really mean is 'Thai conformity'. Hypocrisy and humbuggery should be countered wherever it is found, and there is quite a lot to be found in Thailand.

Never-the-less, nobody forces me to stay here. if and when the balance of pro's and con's dips below equity I will be gone.

Given that Mr Wilson has chosen to use definitions taken from a wiki article on failed states in his OP, perhaps we could use the same article to provide his answer.

<snippety>

Thailand comes in at #79 on this list, behind (ie less failed than) countries such as China (57), Israel (58), Indonesia (62) and Russia (71).

Don't worry a few more years of this lot and they'll reach number 1. It seems like it's what they're trying to do.

As Mr Wilson could not but have noticed this list when he copied and pasted his definitions into the OP, I can only wonder at his motives in doing so

It's a conspiracy of course, I am in the pay of Thaksin... obviously.

Paranoia good. Obsessiveness good. Thaksin bad. All Thais are honest - except Thaksin.

:D

By the way... you can call me Kevin. Kev if you like.