thaigene2

Referendum under attack

The government's call for a referendum to end the ongoing political strife has met with stiff resistance, with almost all concerned parties saying it was unconstitutional and merely a delaying tactic.

Opposition chief whip Sathit Wongnongtoey said any referendum to specific individuals or groups ran counter to Article 165 of the Constitution.

"It's simply a tactic to buy some time," he said.

- The Nation / 2008/09/05

No, actually it's a "tactic" to ask the people of Thailand - again - if they support the government or the little mob in Bangkok. We know what the outcome will be - the majority disapprove of the Mob and still like Thaksin and anyone who likes him.

Meanwhile, EC member Sodsri Satayathum said the EC was ready to conduct the referendum but that the government should make the questions clear.

Questions like should an outsider be allowed to be prime minister or should MPs be 30-per-cent elected and 70-per-cent appointed are allowed. But ones like should the prime minister resign are unconstitutional, she said.

- The Nation / 2008/09/05

Huh? It's unconstitutional for Samak to ask the populace whether he should step down, but it's perfectly 'consitutional' to ask whether democracy should be suspended to make way for an appointed parliament of elites? Man they've got some bright lights working for the EC, don't they?

OHH...REALLY!!!...some "big" people are sometimes like children...happens very often HERE!!

So true - just like the rich chinese-thai 'kid' who ran down the people at that bus stop. Where was the justice there? You're so right.

Bet he had a wristband though..Jing Jing, eh, funcat? Does that make him 'better' than the populist poor people who want a bit of "your" country? The more expensive car one drives and the more yellow one wears...they are just so much more 'worthy' of Thailand aren't they? Is that it???

University students joining political turmoils... not a great idea.

No? Why shouldn't they? The tradition in Thailand (and in many other countries) has been that that the students are at the forefront of the protests. The recent tumults represent the exception from the rule.

The students are a minority this time round. Everyone with half a brain can see this is the sakdida/feudalists trying to erase popluist one-person-one-vote from Thai politics for at leat the next generation. That's why the students, by and large, are staying way frm this.

AND by the way that's why the September 19 STUDENT MOVEMENT was among the VERY FEW with the balls to stand up and critize the 2007 Coup. Where were Sondhi and the other "Democrats" then, Hmm??

<Flame removed>

Notice how the fuedalist-Nation newspaper blames the police (in a subtle way?)

E.G. Army Good! Disciplined, Patronistic, Loyal!!

Police Bad - Thaksinites, Uneducated, Undisciplined, Untrustworthy, Disloyal!!

The Nation is a shameful, disgraceful rag of the priviledged class. Feudal As-wipe in a sense..he, he.

In reality both forces are greedy mafias..

despite the photos and names they carry on their crests. A joke.

Yep the idea of one person one vote is lost in the eather-heads..

Sriracha John, Tony Clifton, Herr h90, Plus and others.

If the followign referndum question was asked, would you allow international election observers to monitor this and would you go along with the results?

Question:

A group of demonstrators has seized some Government buildings and other areas in the capital and elsewhere. The police and army have been reluctant to enforce court orders to remove them, and some court orders are pending an appeal by the protestors. The elected Government is askng for the public's view on the following question.

Should the authorities the Royal Thai Police (and the military if required) be obliged to evict the protestors from the public places and Government premises if they do not leave voluntarily as requested by the Government?

Yes?

No?

Oh it's always the same old anti-thakisn brigade with the same old sky is falling 'vote buying' stories.

You know as well as anyone, the Isaan and Northern voters (the majority) would vote for these guys with or without ANY money. You just won't admit it publicly.

Then why spend the millions of baht, if not billions, buying votes if they were so secure in a victory?

Actually I have a better response than the one above - why did the military/feudalist puppet government REFUSE to allow int'l election monitors to observe - since they were so sure there would be massive vote buying? Becuase they knew there wouldn't be - some sure - but massive no way, and that was their premise for countering WHAT THEY KNEW WOULD BE A LOSS AT THE POLLS.

You guys aren't even a challenge. Wish I could post in Thai..

So of course THIS time, the PPP Govt will USHER IN THE INTERNATIONAL OBSERVERS. Just watch! That's why I say the fuedals will panic - and soemthing will happen to make sure NO referendum will happen. (No I'm not getting paid for this but I should be right?? - think some goofy big company is getting millions for this!)

Oh it's always the same old anti-thakisn brigade with the same old sky is falling 'vote buying' stories.

You know as well as anyone, the Isaan and Northern voters (the majority) would vote for these guys with or without ANY money. You just won't admit it publicly.

So a referendum? You'll take the same position as the Yellow-Peril guys in PAD (my name from now on - Copyright 2008 Thaigene2) where the position is that there can be no fair referendum because of vote buying right?

Ha, Ha, Ha.....Pathetic. You'll lose you know it. And so do the Sakdina/Feudals - and my guess is THEY won't let it get that far. They'll panic and something else will happen first to prop up the feudalist move to eliminate populist politics - which any right-thinking half-sober (ok, half sober) person knows is the main objective - Thakisn is a side-show.

Good luck limp swingers..

Five Crucial Steps for Ending Crisis

By The Nation

Isn't this a tad unrealistic?

Please read the second line : "By The Nation". What do you expect ?

I remember the answer of TV adm. responding to critics questioning their impartiality because of their frequent use of The Nation articles : Because it's free !

You pay peanuts, you get monkey !

It's because they sympathise with the royalist, anti-one-person-one-vote position. Why else? - Good little syncophants to the Nation's aristocratic familes and their 'western educated' kids who work there - now how did daddy make the money to do that given his 37,688 baht per month salary - mai lue! (Then again could the Nation pablum be worse than silver spoon Nat and the Nat b+tch whatever her stupid name is)..

back to the farangs and their reason for being PAD chearleaders -- (at least the "business' farangs..he, he..'business' yeah right..real pros) all their little questionable companies are on the line....ya know. "Oy mate I'm a biznessman..Wanna set up a business? Wanna buy a house?" They're all previous time-share dealers from majorca named "Stevie, mate - OY- Got a spare fag, then?"..Or perhaps slightly more upmarket guest house operators in goofy little crap-holes that no one really wants to visit, dodgy teachers at schools that pay crap money but will pay more than two months salary for the work permit, etc..

Their views are so important...yet some seem to callt he shots here. Amu-Z-ing.

EDITORIAL IN YESTERDAY'S FINANCIAL TIMES: (Mods - can you pin this as its own news report - rather than burried here?). Yet again, it takes the quality international press to put things in perspective. Why can't Thailand's media see the forest for the trees?

Thailand must resist mob rule

Published: September 2 2008 22:07 | Last updated: September 2 2008 22:07

Less than a year since elections restored democratic rule after a military coup in 2006, Thailand has plunged into fresh instability. The worst violence seen in Bangkok for 16 years leaves Samak Sundaravej, the Thai prime minister, with few options. Clashes between anti-government protesters and supporters of the administration have left one dead and dozens injured. With air and rail services badly affected, tourism suffering and public sector unions threatening a national strike for Wednesday, the imposition of emergency rule in the capital on Tuesday was inevitable and justified.

The protests began a week ago when supporters of the People’s Alliance for Democracy occupied and barricaded Government House. The PAD accuses Mr Samak’s People Power Party of being a front for Thaksin Shinawatra, exiled former prime minister, and of buying votes in last December’s election. It says it wants to clean up the electoral system.

If so, it is going the wrong way about it. The PAD is subverting parliament by provoking a bloody confrontation with the government designed to bring about its collapse and the intervention of the army.

The opposition group may have miscalculated. Its proposals for a parliament with 70 per cent of its members appointed and 30 per cent elected are less a recipe for democratic reform and more a throwback to authoritarian rule. They have not won broad public support and newspapers have criticised the group’s actions. The Election Commission’s decision to recommend the Supreme Court disband the PPP for election fraud could fuel suspicions that a Bangkok elite, including elements of the army, bureaucracy, court and palace officials, is conspiring to stifle the country’s fragile democracy.

Mr Samak, who has sensibly built bridges with the generals in his short tenure, should stand firm. Whether or not he is a Thaksin proxy, he is still Thailand’s elected and legitimate leader. Moreover, despite the presence of several PAD backers, the army, which has a low tolerance of political disorder, is reluctant to become involved. The government is hopeful that the army will enforce emergency rule, giving the prime minister a breathing space.

Thailand should pause. If Mr Samak is to fall from power, it should be by parliamentary means. Ruling coalition politicians may have grounds for ousting the prime minister in the event he mishandles the crisis. That would mean fresh elections. But the removal of Mr Samak by an alliance of street protesters and a reactionary elite would mean mob rule in Thailand.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008

Link: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8c613ffa-7920-11...0077b07658.html

Appeals Court rejects PAD's plea against arrest warrants

The Appeals Court Tuesday rejects an appeal by the nine leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy, seeking to annul their arrest warrants.

The court decided that the arrest warrants were properly issued in line with the Criminal Procedural Code's Artcle 68 so the court rejected the appeal.

Source: The Nation - 02 September 2008

Another pointless decision, since no one is going to arrest them because the feudals have told the army and police not to touch them.

I haven't read though the entire thread, but didn't the people of Thailand elect the PPP as their government with a majority and more than any other party? If so, why is a minority protesting? Let's face the truth here for a second, the majority of Thais have voted for the PPP. Why is their choice not being respected? And occupying government buildings and TV stations and threatening to cut off electricity and water supplies is hardly democracy, but anarchy.

Yes it is anarchy. And they are not being listened to because Thailand is not a democracy. It's an oligarchy, run by a group of feudalists (Sakdina) who are scared sh+tless by populism. Thaksin is a sideshow to them, but what he was able to do (apart from his corruption and self-enrichment) - he mobilized the vast majority of voters behind him and began to change the balance of power away from the feudals and toward a modern form of governance (albeit one that was manipulated for his own gain).

Anyway, what we're seeing is the Sakdinas trying to grab back power though the vendetta-seeking Thaksin-haters, who are acting as their proxies on the street. The army's failure to act, the police pulling back when they had the upper hand, the PAD calling for 70% appointed elitist MPs rather than elections, this is all being orchestrated by the silver-spoon brigade who have nothing to offer Thailand or society but their own greed and selfishness - except for their daughters to other guanxi-minded hi-sos in order to start the cycle of greed all over again.

This is a conspiracy - and there is no doubt about that. The yellow T-shirt brigade are probably too stupid to understand that, but none of these actions has been a 'coincidence'

This General on TV right now, do I understand correctly that he is saying the military will not break up the PAD demonstrations? Isn't that called mutiny?

Well, I guess it's pretty clear then (if any doubt existed) that the old feudal families have finally shown what Thailand really is - a country of slaves to the nobles. The slaves are allowed to vote, but the Government and its officers are not allowed to serve the interests of the voters - only the interests of the nobles.

Sad day for Thailand. The end of Thai innocence I reckon.

Yes. This is so surreal. A bunch of rich people sitting in the mud listening to protest style music and wailing in support of installing a military government.

I don't know where the idea came from that it is elitist and a bunch of rich people in the PAD? I wouldn't call the Unions supporting this movement "a bunch of rich people". They are just working people, trying to earn a living, while having their rights protected. The only people, whom I know personally, that went to the rally, are definitely far from rich. Aside from one restaurant owner, I know, that went to the demonstration, who owns a medium size restaurant (not a noodle stand, but not the Riverside either), all the others I know are all poor working people.

Granted, it is a small sample of people who went, but common...lets talk about Union support for a minute. I have been a Union member for all my adult life. Most Union brothers and sisters are much easier painted with the "Socialist Horde" brush, than being called a bunch of rich people.

The PAD is supported from all walks of society, I think. Probably mostly by educated people, would be my guess.

Now I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know what the outcome will be, if the PAD gets it's wish and the Thaksin/Samak government falls, but seeing all the corruption charges in the courts against both Thaksin (who still seems to be pulling a lot of Samaks strings) and also against the new PPP government and its allies, who have been accused (and I believe rightly so)of vote buying and their party executive being involved in vote buying (which under the new constitution should disolve their party), I can only see things getting better, not worse, if this corrupt government falls.

A lot of people in this forum seem to paint the PAD as the enemy of the poor and I dont' see it that way at all. I've seen former PM Thaskin and his TRT (now PP Party) as the enemy of the poor, because they threw the poor just enough crumbs, so they didn't think they would revolt. A grossly underfunded 30 Baht scheme... a money lending scheme in which a lot of the poor have now lost their homes and land. (Telling them they can borrow money against their home or land for three years with no interest and no payments and that after three years it will all come due...most of the poor and uneducated didn't even understand what would happen to them and the rest of them where too poor to have a choice)

Sorry, but I still have faith in the goodness of people. I believe that things can get better with a different government. Now granted, I may be wrong, but there is a good chance that things will get better.

So many people coming out to demonstrate and risking their life for change, is a great thing, I think. If this government falls as a result of this, it will show that people do have power.

Anyways, it's about Thailand and Thai People and their wishes. May they get what they wish for :-)

I think it is difficult to deny that the Isan and poor areas of the country see TRT/PPP as their champion. PAD seems to draw their support from Bangkok and other more affluent areas. It is understandable that this appears to be part of the rich and middle classes trying to stop or slow the flow of welfare and populist government policies. There may also be factions of PAD that feel like they did not receive their share of previous corruption so they hope to dissolve the present government in the hopes they will benefit from future corruption. In any case, I think it would be far better to work within the present government framework and make every attempt to root out corruption and get better leaders elected. PAD has shown they have the power to effect change. They should use that power to make the government and the country better and not to install a military appointed government. Like you, I also wish the best for the country.

But they won't since their leaders aren't at all interested in some kind of consultative people power - they are only interested in what you alluded to earlier. An an end to one-person-one-vote. Welcome to facism mein freund..Zeig Heil!! But rest assured you will still be able to shop at Paragon and get there for 2 bucks in an under-paid taxi and arrive in Bangkok in an ender-fared train - WHY ARE THE UNIONS ON THE SIDE OF FASCIST PAD???

Corruption is king at nearly every level of society here.

How true at many levels and be thankful they seldom teach propositional logic in the schools anymore.

How true that is. By the way has anyone seen the classic film on DVD/VDO (in English) Wizard of Oz for sale here? I just love that song..."We're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz...because, because, because, because, Becuase !! BECAUSE of the wonderful things he does.." But I haven't been able to find it though - I've heard it may be available at Fortune Town - no luck so far. I'm determined to show it to my family - sure you might understand. Anyway, one can keep looking - just like Dorothy.. (also the Grinch that stole xmas would be good..)

Yes I also thought the Union thing uniting with the enemy-pro-facist PAD was also so striking..

Then I recalled the Teamsters, Jimmy Hoffa and the other gangster involvement in the development of unions in the US and it all became MUCH clearer - Khow Jai? Kapische?

2. The Bangkoko PAD movement is a huge movement like those of other 'popular revolutions' (e.g. Philippines, Poland, etc) that sweeps up people from all walks of life and is a legitimate body to force and elected Government from office. Conclusion: First, TRT and PPP were popularly elected Governments with the former enjoying a huge majority - these other examples involved unrepresentative military governments or other styles of dicatorships (e.g. communist).

for the record, Marcos was freely elected into office... things soured, but he was again elected into office.

He was neither a "unrepresentative military government" nor a "communist".

He was, however, a "dictator"... an elected one who developed into that role after democracy voted him in initially... same, same as square-head... there's more than a few direct similarities between the two.

OK - perhaps you're correct right-winger, let's have an appointed 'Democracy' of people or 'stars' with pedigree...hear, hear...pass the Pimms old boy!

PAD did NOT try and become a party or a government after 2006,

which would have been a perfect opportunity to do so. Why one must ask if their aim is to 'take over the country'

as many seem to imply here? Seems a stretch.

Because they wouldn't have won and might have had to try and figure out some coherent policies instead of continuing their vendetta against Thaksin and his allies.

Not being able to win the whole show doesn't stop DOZENS of parties in Thailand

from running on their little platforms.

PAD would likely not have been able to take the majority, but theu could have won seats then

and gotten likely enough to gain one cabinet post.

But they chose NOT to run.

Because the people of Thailand don't want to vote for elitist/feudalist parties. Get it now? Perhaps if If I write it using your style you'll understand, animatic?

There can be no Democracy, without me - you see?

When the elite flex their muscles hoping we will quake with fear,

We shall rise up to their challenge, hear, hear.

The PAD have no support, except the money of feudals..

My Lord, we know PAD are nothing but Poodles.

Their claims of loyalty are tiresome to me.

I was hoping they too would get tired, and just leave things be.

But no - Sondhi and sidekick are looking like clowns, and the elites

Who back them will not get their way - wait and see!

The game is not over - don't think for a second!

One person - one vote it's democacracy that beckons

So return to your retired homestead and turn off the light

In the long run, the masses will rise - the feudals will never, ever win this fight.

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

I agree with your post. I think it is also important to note that there were no demonstrations in support of TRT after the coup. I think that is because it was a military government that did not allow protests or allow assembly. There was also heavy censorship. Anyone who spoke out against the coup could have been shot.

I'd be willing to bet money that if the PAD get their way and the elites (via PAD or the military) are able to force out the popular choice of the people to install their own feudal proxy the reaction this time to the military intervention (or whomever is the 'force') will face a much different response than last time. My guess is people won't be scared - and there will be fury. The lone taxi driver who drove his cab into that tank a year ago will be seen as a martyr of the last coup - and this time around they'd be doing a lot more than driving cabs at tanks. The feudals really need to stop and think about this. It's time to end this threat of an end to democracy and stop ignoring the legitimate needs and aspirations of the masses. It's inevitable that the masses will win eventually - whether this year, next year or a few years from now. Why don't the elites take a page from their own book and try to reconcile rather than try to force their minority position on th rest of the country? Before it's too late..

What we have here and now in Thailand is a situation where by less than 0.1% of the voters are mounting a campaign of civil unrest and violence in an effort to force their will on the other 99.9% of voters.

Your post is well-written and fairly well thought out. Why would you end it with a meaningless statistic that you can't possibly defend? The fact of the matter is that nobody really knows how many people the PAD represent.

Well, we do know that a Bangkok University poll published last week found that 75% of respondents were opposed to the PAD's occupational tactics of comandeering airports, streets, etc..and wanted them to go home. How's that?

The pro-PAD arguments seem to boil down to two things.

1. The poor majority in the country are stupid and only voted for TRT/PPP because they were paid to do so. Conclusion: Paying money to voters at election time has been going on for years but is unlikely the reason that poor people in their masses voted for TRT/PPP - more likely they felt these parties, unlike the others, listened to them and then did things to improve their lives - village funds, etc, (remember Thaksin staying in a different village one night eeach week and his 'mobile cabinet meetings')?

2. The Bangkoko PAD movement is a huge movement like those of other 'popular revolutions' (e.g. Philippines, Poland, etc) that sweeps up people from all walks of life and is a legitimate body to force and elected Government from office. Conclusion: First, TRT and PPP were popularly elected Governments with the former enjoying a huge majority - these other examples involved unrepresentative military governments or other styles of dicatorships (e.g. communist). While PAD does have poor people as well as middle class in its rank and file - the backers are clearly the elites and the feudalists - as Sondhi admitted in his interview with Shawn Crispin. The fact they can't muster more than 30,000 people in a country of 60+ million belies the rubbish of this claim (30,000 is the average size of an average Isaan town).

Democracy = one person one vote. There is no 'other' kind of democracy. And to deny people their right to vote will lead to an uprising. Do not advocate an end to one person one vote.

Most of them weren't even wearing full riot gear.

With a police force one one side, and a group on the other, I am absolutely astounded everyone was so amazingly restrained. There was one clear shot where a protestor threw a pretty good right hook at one copper and all he did was keep pushing with his shield.

Throw a punch at a policeman in most parts of the world while he is holding a truncheon and see how long you stay standing.

There were cameras everywhere throughout the whole thing with people with red cross singlets telling the coppers to behave as though it was some bizarre WWF event. Brutality, obviously not to many people have seen crowd control in South Korea.

Makes you wonder - this was clearly recorded during the day. Why is it they had to wait until 11:00 pm to deliver the CD - and until 1:15 AM to show it? Most news that I know of is shown minutes, at most a couple of hours, after it takes place.

I think it's pretty clear that they were relying on the couple of incidents to be able to use the word "brutality" in a vague sense to convey the impression that this brutality was widespread. Not saying there wasn't brutal force used - clearly there was - but to repeatedly claim Thai police brutality throughout the day is nothing but spin.

I don't know, but when I got a feverish phone call from my wife to turn on the TV because the police were attacking this morning, I was expecting to see water cannon, fully clothed riot police, and tear gas. It ended up in a bizarre kind of group hug and it didn't appear that a blow was made in earnest from what I watched.

I don't doubt there have been injuries, but I don't really think anyone could call the police conduct brutal. It is a scrum of people pushing. Inevitably people get hurt. It could have been a hel_l of a lot worse, and I don't doubt that 90% of these police don't like to have their authority challenged like this. They could be showering every site with tear gas and believe me, no one would stay.

hel_l, 20 years ago, they hung student protestors in Korat.

Yes isn't it interesting to note that everytime there is a left-wing protest (e.g. led by middle-class students largely against unelected, military/"appointed" governments) - like those of the 70's, 80's and even 90's - extreme violence is used to protect the interests of the elites/oligarch/feudalists and no is ever brought to account - then it's all basically ignored by most of society in the decades that follow - so as not to anger the elites.

BUT - as soon as the proxies of the elites (e.g. the fuedalist anti-democrat-supported PAD protestors) start running riot through the capital, comandeering airports and the like, any cop who dares to raise a shield against them is using 'brutal violence'. And the elites warn the elected Government not to use any force to stop them - which means they have no power to stop them. A self-fullfilling prophecy of the elites.

***incitement removed*** If this were my country, I'd already be in the streets taking up defensive/offensive positions. But it's not - so the best I can do is teach my kids the PAD are enemies of Thailand...and rant on a web board like this.

I don't understand how the PPP voters have indicated a lack of education. They voted for the party that they believed, with some cause in my opinion, best represented their interests. EVERY educated person votes that way. (Perhaps the voters who need an education requirement are those in the South who consistently vote for a party that has shown much less concern for the poor).

As far as vote buying, a recent study at a NY university (can't recall) showed that over half would sell their vote for- I think it was- an ipod.

Most of the people in our Thai society still thinks that democracy is accepting money from the party. EVERY "educated" Thai person votes that way, in the South, North, East, Central, everywhere. Don't think that the government is interested to educate our people, especially in rural area, in YOUR "real" way of democracy. That would mean loss of control and power. It will take probably 50 years to change all this - the old Thai elite and powerful families have to die out first.

But then they'll be replaced by their rich craven kids - who believe Thailand is theirs -- and only theirs.

In every country in recent history there comes a point when the masses will say 'we've been exploited and ignored for too long'. Even in passive, brainwashed, Thailand - that day will come. And when it does, the feudal/sakdina/oligarch families won't be able to hide behind yellow shirts and hidden hands...insetad they will become Thaksin's neighbours in London and Hong Kong. I hope that day comes sooner than later..

Aside from the above -- one little thing I've noticed on several of these cruises is that the Thais run straight for the food once they're on the boat. The idea of a leisurely cruise while you eat never seems to cross their minds.

The downside of this is that if you don't follow their lead, there will be nothing left by the time the boat finally pushes off. Many people are nearly finished eating by the time the boat leaves the pier.

yep. Some drunk cops may have joined the rally too right? All the way down from Pai. Any idea of the numbers of those folks making their way down? Or is it just "numbers"?

Important to note that the PAD themselves aren't a unified body, there are plenty of factions within that don't necessarily take part in all PAD activities. I have relatives that are both PAD and the anti-matter of PAD. Some are under-employed, some are retired (both of the not well to do gov't and well to do private sector variety), some are still working (again, all different occupations, from tiny shop restaurant owner to SME owner). Like politics anywhere, there are all kinds of interests involved, it's hardly a black and white issue.

Just as an example: one particular gal I know (not a friend, just a loose aquaintence) runs the local underground lottery at the local open air market. Turnover in the range of 3-4 million Baht per drawing (bi-monthly). She is avidly pro-PAD (and regularly sponsors minivan full loads of supporters up to Bangkok from Chonburi) because of course if the PPP get their 2-3 digit lottery up and running again, it bites into sales... also, the PPP lottery inherently comes with increased police enforcement/suppression of the underground lottery.

On the converse, another fellow I am acquainted with in Bangkok is with Loxley Info. (the old ISP/IT services provider company which may as well be called Lamsam Info...ala Kasikorn Bank) and is avidly anti-PAD. His interest is the opposite of the open market lotto gal mentioned earlier because wouldn't you know it, Loxley is the concession holder to produce the machines that run the new PPP lottery. And who do you think had first 'dibs' in signing up for these lotto scanning/selling machines? Loxley insiders, this particular gentleman included, who purchased 4 of them.... priceless if placed in key locations (say if you own a few prime location 7-11 franchises... ala lotto sales in the west). Worthless though if the PPP is out.

And this is just one example of one facet of the whole political struggle going on. And as you can see, neither side (as far as these two individuals concerned) could give two bits as to what the outcome is in terms of the "greater good of the poor/keeping the poor down" "Thaksin being brought to justice/brining Thaksin back to power" or the "fight for democracy."

Thanks for the insight .. probably the best post from you that I have ever read.

Agree every once in a while Heng hits a line drive with local info like this. Still, we ARE seeing the feudal/elites panicking..add this nugget to the Sondhi interview from above (last year) and his sudden forward play for an 'appointed' govt with formal military oversight and I think we all see where this is heading. The rich and powerful of course will win this eventually - just as always - as they have the poo-yais and the money on thei side - and Somsack in Ubon has a chicken and a dirt floor.

How does that Proclaimers tune go?..."Pat votes the Scots way...just like her mother, but South always takes all...just like her brother. The next time she might vote...Aye..so might the others, but time's running out pal, cause they're givin up in numbers. What do ya do, when Democracy fails you?.."