thaigene2

Try that at the White House premises

..or maybe Downing Street 10 ?

LaoPo

Neither are the seat of Government. Sorry to be so pedantic.

Despite the name, I don't think Government House is the 'seat' of Government is it? Wouldn't it be the Parliament down the road? Government House is essentially the Cabinet Offices to my understanding.

As for people taking their children into an environment like that - well, they need their heads examined. Come to think of it - they've probably needed that for some time which is why some of them are there in the first place.

While many of these people are, as I said above, most likely good people with a bee-in-their-bonnet over Thaksin, et al, there are many many whakos in the crowd. I've walked through the crowd a couple of times and have also seen them during a couple of their 'marches' through downtown. There are some right nutters in there.

For those who have not read this interview I strongly urge you to do so. Those who think he is fighting 'the people's fight' might find his enthusiastic admission of being 'the elite's defacto spokesman' interesting.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/ID27Ae01.html

I'm curious. Did you read the article? If anything the interview indicates that Sondhi sees himself as the de facto spokesman for the middle class, not the elite. Whether that is true or not may be open for debate. I suggest you re-read the entire interview.

OK - well I read it all.

I will hand it to Sondhi that he speaks well of himself. And I don't doubt the fact that his core base on the streets is the middle-class Chinese-Thai - most of whom think they are fighting the good fight. However, he is (self-admittedly) as Blaze pointed out, the lapdog of the elites. He was the golden opportunity they were waiting for - and I believe he is correct in saying that the elites are feudalist families who are terrified of populism and one-person-one-vote becuase Thaksin used that to modernize and rbeak down the traditional inter-family business dealings - shutting them out as Sondhi puts it. It hink he's right on.

As for his bewidlerment at why the last Coup leaders didn't clean house and create a transparent democractic movement forward - well, you know, that's pretty funny isn't it, given the military elite's history here. Anyone ever find the Saudi gems?

So he's kind of riding the fence there isn't he? Yet here he is a year later telling us all we need to abandon one-person-one-vote and install a priviledged elite appointed Government with military backing. Well there are two faces. Does he have any more?

Thailand's current debacle is glowing proof of the problems that stem from buying votes and endemic corruption. Among other things, PAD supporters appear to be saying they have no faith in the ways things get done in Thailand, and not much faith that anyone (or any group) of politicians have the basic skills needed to govern decently - as PAD haven't put forward a candidate or cabinet to replace the current bunch of crooks and bumblers in the power seats.

Not a chance. They're going for all or nothing now. That's why Sondhi finally blurted it out - no elections, just elites apponted to Government from now on and and an official oversight by the military.

It's so sad, but perhaps human nature, that the elties in Thailand simply won't face up to the fact that their neglect of the masses for so long has led to this fatal attraction to TRT/PPP. Rather than the Democrats (for example) trying to beat the PPP at their own game by developing good sound policies to improve the lives of ordinary (read poor) Thais who make up the majority of the country, they've tried to fall back on the old elite military-commercial guanxi families to save them - in other words ignore the poor and if they get too pushy then just ban democracy altogether.

It's either incredibly arrogant or incredibly simple-minded. Turn the clock bak 60 years.

Sums up the current position pretty neatly IMHO.

Except the first paragraph isn't from my post. Perhaps you added it in the top there by mistake - perhaps from someone else?

wow 56 pages of comments!

Thailand's current debacle is glowing proof of the problems that stem from buying votes and endemic corruption. Among other things, PAD supporters appear to be saying they have no faith in the ways things get done in Thailand, and not much faith that anyone (or any group) of politicians have the basic skills needed to govern decently - as PAD haven't put forward a candidate or cabinet to replace the current bunch of crooks and bumblers in the power seats.

Best would be a firm declaration from big shots on both sides of the fence - to do all the can to ensure fair elections - and then go forward on that. Nothing is going to clean up Thai politics anytime soon, but there may be some incremental emprovements over the years - if positive and decent attitudes are given vent.

Do you think that the PAD legions and those funding them would be content to accept the outcome of even the most pristine election that genuinely reflected the aspirations of the majority- which just happens to be poor?

Not a chance. They're going for all or nothing now. That's why Sondhi finally blurted it out - no elections, just elites apponted to Government from now on and and an official oversight by the military.

It's so sad, but perhaps human nature, that the elties in Thailand simply won't face up to the fact that their neglect of the masses for so long has led to this fatal attraction to TRT/PPP. Rather than the Democrats (for example) trying to beat the PPP at their own game by developing good sound policies to improve the lives of ordinary (read poor) Thais who make up the majority of the country, they've tried to fall back on the old elite military-commercial guanxi families to save them - in other words ignore the poor and if they get too pushy then just ban democracy altogether.

It's either incredibly arrogant or incredibly simple-minded. Turn the clock bak 60 years.

I have to laugh when some people on here equate "democrcay" with the current gov't. Didn't anyone listen to the court verdict that's resulted in disbanding TRT and its 111 executive members? And the way this current gov't has tried to interfere independent investigative organizations? The 2 million Baht bribe money to teh judge? The way they wanna bypass the public hearing to change the constutition to serve their master? Etc.. "Democracy" my backside, I'd say. Democracy just doesn't mean elections.

Democracy means oner person, one vote. The fact your forefathers have paid little or no attention to improving the lives of the 80% of poor people in "your" country is precisely the reason we are all facing this situation today. If they'd tried to make it a more egalitarian nation - spreading the wealth and resources to ensure that the people of the country benefited and not just a clique of guanxi schemers, then TRT/PPP wouldn't have been able to exploit the mass electorate in the way they have.

You deserve it. Now then, will you -- like your pal Sondhi -- also go on the record to say that you no longer want a one-person-one-vote democracy?

People are always talking about massacres when students get shot, muslims get thrown in trucks and people stand in front of tanks. Guess what, if they do as they are told and go home these things would never happen.

Ah yes, just be good little sheep,

just hand over you cash and your children's futures,

we know what to do with both. Trust us were the bosses.

Don't dare say anything WE disagree with we know better.

We'd still have Kings of France, and English Colonies in Virginia and India,

by this logic. And all those people who suffocated in trucks,

it was THEIR fault for not just going home.

Talk is cheap, until you disagree with the powers that be.

What's your point? We still have a King in Thailand. Any disagreement?

The thing is, this PAD mob does not represent the hearts and minds of the Thai masses. How can such people ever by martyrs if the people aren't behind them? And they aren't.

I agree Jingthing. There was an estimated 30K protesters from a population of 53 Million (as quoted in samak's speech). This is a very small representation of the total Thai population.

Cheers, Rick

Problem is the anti-democratic forces supporting them and bankrolling them are from the most senior families in the land - families who see democracy as an irritant to their closed-circle operations...

What a charade. Riots in the streets and the government powerless to restore order because the Army will step in and mount another coup.

Any western democracy would have had the riot police out there with water cannons and tear gas by now.

Thailand will never progress to a true democracy until they get the Army under control. If it wernt for the tough economic times and the mess they made of things only several months ago I am sure the generals would want to snatch the power back and get their snouts in the trough again. Pads call for another coup may be premature in that respect. IMHO the best thing Samak could do right now is to declare a state of emergency and temporarily turn the management of the PAD rioters over to the Army.

Yes absolutely Ando - it's a charade. But Samak can't declare a state of emergency and/or turn this over to the Army because the Army and the chief of the privy council would use that as an excuse for the executive to ask the Army to take charge again beacuse the Government 'can't handle the situation.'

It's exactly what they are all waiting for - and is the objective of PAD's rallies. Sondhi is now finally on record saying what many of us suspected and wrote about long ago: he wants an end to democracy and an appointed Government with the Army given an official role as chief arbiter. So much for one-person-one-vote!

It's also the reason that Samak hasn't gone in there and clobbered those guys. He has to back down to prevent the Army using bloodshed as an excuse. Remember the flimsy excuse they used to justify the last coup? It wasn't Thaksin - it was the supposed threat of violence - that they used as an excuse to overthrow a Government with a landslide majority. So at present Samak's playing it about the only way he can I reckon. He has democracy and the will of msot voters on his side. But he doesn't have the real power in Thailand behind him (the military and the rich-old-patronage-families). This is why he's faxing Western embassies and holding news conferences in English - to make the point he's doing everything by the book - going out of his way to avoid hurting those who would destroy democracy in favour of some elitist-old-family-crony-thing to run the country.

Think what you like about PPP and TRT (I think they're a rogue's gallery) but it's now gone far past Thaksin or Samak or Consitutional changes to help Thaksin hang on to money -- it's down to democracy versus elitism. I know where I stand on that one - and the latest poll shows 3/4 of Thailand also want these guys to pack up and go home.

Samak is painting the Army into a corner...and I hope he's successful.

A quick edit to add my new definition of "The PAD" - ... The Priviledged Against Democracy"

I have no idea if it has been mentioned before (didn't bother reading all 17 pages) but you can get frequent updates in English at ASTV (ASTV1 and TOC)

opalhort

Maybe you should read the 17 pages instead of wearing your special shirt - and watching your brainwashing tv programme?

Thanks for your advise.

I only mentioned ASTV as an alternative to other local TV stations because they have frequent updates in English. Of course ASTV / TOC is heavily pro PAD but if you watch a typical Thai tv station and ASTV, add all the info together and filter it, then anybody with some common sense can figure out the truth or at least something close to the truth.

opalhort

Good point - sorry for my insinuation.

Thanks (where and when) it's due. Good job.

Important to note that the PAD themselves aren't a unified body, there are plenty of factions within that don't necessarily take part in all PAD activities. I have relatives that are both PAD and the anti-matter of PAD. Some are under-employed, some are retired (both of the not well to do gov't and well to do private sector variety), some are still working (again, all different occupations, from tiny shop restaurant owner to SME owner). Like politics anywhere, there are all kinds of interests involved, it's hardly a black and white issue.

Just as an example: one particular gal I know (not a friend, just a loose aquaintence) runs the local underground lottery at the local open air market. Turnover in the range of 3-4 million Baht per drawing (bi-monthly). She is avidly pro-PAD (and regularly sponsors minivan full loads of supporters up to Bangkok from Chonburi) because of course if the PPP get their 2-3 digit lottery up and running again, it bites into sales... also, the PPP lottery inherently comes with increased police enforcement/suppression of the underground lottery.

On the converse, another fellow I am acquainted with in Bangkok is with Loxley Info. (the old ISP/IT services provider company which may as well be called Lamsam Info...ala Kasikorn Bank) and is avidly anti-PAD. His interest is the opposite of the open market lotto gal mentioned earlier because wouldn't you know it, Loxley is the concession holder to produce the machines that run the new PPP lottery. And who do you think had first 'dibs' in signing up for these lotto scanning/selling machines? Loxley insiders, this particular gentleman included, who purchased 4 of them.... priceless if placed in key locations (say if you own a few prime location 7-11 franchises... ala lotto sales in the west). Worthless though if the PPP is out.

And this is just one example of one facet of the whole political struggle going on. And as you can see, neither side (as far as these two individuals concerned) could give two bits as to what the outcome is in terms of the "greater good of the poor/keeping the poor down" "Thaksin being brought to justice/brining Thaksin back to power" or the "fight for democracy."

You know Heng, you just made my point exactly. These are the people out there on the ground that are being manipulated by others or out of their own self-interest and greed. How many of these 'business' people care about 30 baht health or improved public education? Nada. Thanks for making my point! These sleezy people represent NO ONE but themselves!

I have no idea if it has been mentioned before (didn't bother reading all 17 pages) but you can get frequent updates in English at ASTV (ASTV1 and TOC)

opalhort

Maybe you should read the 17 pages instead of wearing your special shirt - and watching your brainwashing tv programme?

What a bunch of worthless thugs. God, they remind me of football hooligans.

Well at least they are trying which is more than you are doing you can't blame people are tired of the country being run by a bunch of Hoodlums and Thieves.

And what is it they are 'trying' to do? To spark an incident that will invite a military dictatorship? To establish once and for all that the governing of this country is determined, not in the ballot box, but on the streets? To disenfranchise the poor majority in the country? To ensure the primacy of the highly corrupt and inbred civil service? Not all protests, Captain Canada, are for noble causes despite their press releases.

Sadly, Mr. Canada, the rest of the world - and thailand in particular - doesn't care what the masses think or say. That, my friend, is what you are witnessing. And it's why you, and I, and everyone else from Canada or any other Western country who's parents/grandparents fought and died to protect our system of one-person-one-vote needs to sit up and speak out. Shame on those who don't. Really - f+ck the rest of them..they should be well and truly ashamed - given the blood spilled by their descendants who died protecting these values. We've always been aware that the rich made 'us' fight the wars. But our fathers/uncles etc did so because we believed in the cause.

And that cause was one-person-one-vote.

Time to take stock on what is unfolding here - and think about that. Especially for those of us with children born here.

Sadly, this is not even news worthy in the US. No mention on any of the news channels and not even on the ticker.

There's no oil here.

I guess the theory of unintended consequences is going to come into play some time soon.

Samak has obviously played it by the rule book up to now - hoping the crisis will lessen.....

But many of the people are angry and today's event's will act as a catalyst.

No - you wish the unintended consequences would come into play soon. That's why Samak is waiting it out and using all non-forceful measures to end this. At some point they may have to go in and pull everyone out. But if they're smart they'll have many cameras rolling when the do it.

They know who's on your side - and that includes the army - and they know the army are just itching to take over again. Samak almost said that toward the end of the news conference..As he said, they (PAD) are looking for a trigger..but he's not going to give them one.

It is well known that K. Thaksin has a PR office he contracts in Hong Kong to Comment and troll on online fourms blogs etc. There are a few of them here and I will let you discover for yourself as they are quite smooth and clever being the same office contracted by the CCP to comment on Free Tibet youtube videos so they are used to gaining trust by agreeing with both sides and then bringing down the hammer.

If you want to see history in action, spend an afternoon going though the history of the Thaksin Wiki page, you will see was nicely groomed up until a certain date, then he stopped paying the office to update and fight changes every hour - so the page reverted back to more like the truth.

the point being that all that posts here are not what they seem and this is just another front in their battle.

Hmm, well I guess Jonathan Head must be one of them too, eh? I couldn't give a rat's arse about Thaksin..but I DO CARE about democracy and the right of voters to choose whomever they want to represent them without a small influentially-backed minority trying to remove those representatives by force. Pitty so many others don't share that view - maybe they should move to Burma? I see that democracy there has been under house-arrest for many years now - just what PAD would love.

starve em out?

oops, have you ever had a run in with a Hungry Thai?

Soo funny! Exactly what I thought. In Belfast and Derry they'll starve in jail to make a point since the food sucks anyway. In Thailand they can't go for a couple of hours without a crisis developing over Hew! Khow!

Just watch, the police and protesters will all be sitting down together laughing and eating in one happy group before you know it..(well maybe not..but it wouldn't surprise me that much..)

Attend a PAD demonstration (I've attended several)

You don't say. What a hero. Well done.

Like I said, ill-informed know-it-all tossers. Oh and that would be "heroine". Get your English correct if you must give another smart alec, sarcastic response.

I feel for you. I've tried to access the BKK Post's forum - but it's been disabled. So we are stuck with as you rightly point out, these tossers. Wonder why they don't consider the thaivisa forum a threat? Oh, right, I get it.

Also noticed the Post and Nation's SMS system has been silent. Rather odd given the circumstances. Not even Samak's remarks frm the news conference.

PAD isn't exactly a part of the Thai Establishment,

What have you been smoking? You can't possibly think this is some kind of spontaneous romantic movement by the weak and oppressed majority against tyranny?

I suppose you're now going to tell me that the old-family bureaucratic types, curiously rich army figures, Prem, aristocracts, and many, many of the other mysteriously yet fantastically wealthy closed-shop families in Thailand are not supporters of PAD? Thaksin and democracy was raining on their vain little parade. It was the first time in their life that someone wasn't holding an umbrella for them - and they're going to make sure populism and democracy never rain on them again.

The new country will be called Thayanmar. Sondhi will be Prime Minister and Baldy, his side-kick, will become Interior Minister. Then all their rich little kids will go shopping at Paragon until the stores all close a year or so later and the US and EU sanctions begin to bite.

The estasblishment and the PAD are not exactly the same thing. the PAD which includes a few members of the establishment (not many) have their own agenda and are sometimes used by the bureaucratic establishment who have a seprate agenda. This is complicated by the fact that the TRT and the PPP even more so are stuffed full of establishment figures. This is not about poor oppressed people. It is a plain old fashioned power struggle between members of the establishment. The establishment figures in the bureaucracy and establishment figures in the PPP will in the end probably find a way to work out a deal and get back to business as usual. It is quite likley that there will be a very few establishment casualties in this including Thaksin and extended family and the PAD and of course the UDD which also includes a few establishment figures.

Oh - yes..I agree more or less with that. This is definitely (and always has been) a struggle between the rich and powerful. I'm just trying to make the point that there's much more to PAD than some sense of moral outrage over a crooked politician. There are most certainly behind the scenes 'hands' as the PPP like to call them working to dismantle once and for all 'populist' politics because that would mean those pulling the strings behind the PAD would lose control of their little feudal patronage society. That's all.

And that is the bottom line- when history judges this event, I'm confident that it will be regarded as the inevitable effort in a developing nation of the aristorcracy attempting to hang on to power in the face of a modernizing political system. Those supporting the PAD who actually are naive enough to believe that their movement is about ridding the country of corruption (though you don't see them demanding an audit of the various and notoriously corrupt beaurocracies) are, I think, being, duped. Sondhi knows what he is doing. He is a mad meglomaniac fueled by little more than an all consuming hatred for Thaksin. So in a sense even he is a pawn. The middle class- those 'People of Chinese Descent Saving the Nation' have alligned themselves with this movement because a government that truly represents the poor majority of this country will probably initiate populist/popular/socialist/welfare state programs that have to be funded by the only class that really pays taxes.

The notion that this is really about corruption- I think, while appealing to foreigners, is a bit hard to swallow given that most Thais have been more than willing to turn a blind eye to corruption even when it was hurting their own pocket books.

Well said Blaze. I think so too. History will be the judge. The rest of the world is watching this too. The US has already warned Thailand and its aristocracy that it is very aware of the hidden reasons and actions here. It said this time there would be a much stronger reaction than last time. I believe the Western countries and Western media are already well onto the trail of what's going on - witness their attemots to cower the BBC's Jonathan Head a few months back for his pointed reporting. This time it will be very different - laid bare for all to see as fewer and fewer are afraid of falling afoul of Thailand's 'don't say, don't say' rule.

You're right it's a last gasp.

Undercover Special Branch Police among PAD Protesters

Around 200 members of the Special Branch Police undercover agents have donned yellow t-shirts and mingled with the PAD protesters at Government House.

It's been reported that most of the undercover officers are loitering around gate no. 4 of the Government House, where there are only a small number of PAD supporters gathering.

[/size]

Oh good stuff. Then they are smarter than I once thought. I guess all those internationally sponsored police-capacity-building courses have paid off, then?

The PAD scum are showing themselves to be the right-wing ultra-nationalist goons that they have always been. Nothing new here!

I find your remarks highly offensive. My wife and her sister are active supporters of the PAD.

Well if they support Sondhi's claim as reported on BBC today that the PAD are now in favour of an end to democracy repalced with an appointed government and military oversight, and they also foam at the mouth with constant allegations of lese majeste aimed at everyone and anyone who doesn't share their views, then they are definitely right-wing, ultra-nationalists. Is there some part of that definition that you don't understand?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps they agree with some parts of the PAD's campaign, but not others (like the above bits)? If so, then I can see your reason for taking offence - I'm sure not all PAD supporters are as I just described - otherwise if the shoe fits wear it. Don't go away mad. Just go away.

It's an interesting comment on Thai television news coverage...

The government sets a supposed 6 pm ultimatum for protesters to move out of Govt. House...and then there's no live TV coverage from there of what if anything is ensuing as the 6-7 pm hour ensues...

That's because all Thai television by design, is a parrot of the Government and/or the Army...a situation never changed by the Democrats in all their enlightening Governments by the way.

In any event, if it's just shots of police sitting outside waiting for the yellow-shirt brigade to get hungry and come outside to Ghin Khow then who wants to wathc that? Samak said they'll wait for them to come out. Mayby that's true maybe not. He also said there would be no armed foce used. So - at best - what we'll see eventually is the type of protest-removal where police go in with rubber gloves and carry them out.

Show over. Then they should dismantle the stage on Rajadamnoen using the same tactic.

However, I think (although you won't like my reasoning) that you are right and there should be cameras EVERYWHERE. Send in the police, unarmed, in their masses to end the protest and return the streets and government buildings to normal. That way we can all see what really happens, and the Army will be thwarted in their attmepts to find an excuse to throw the Coup that their friends in the PAD are hoping for.

PAD isn't exactly a part of the Thai Establishment,

What have you been smoking? You can't possibly think this is some kind of spontaneous romantic movement by the weak and oppressed majority against tyranny?

I suppose you're now going to tell me that the old-family bureaucratic types, curiously rich army figures, Prem, aristocracts, and many, many of the other mysteriously yet fantastically wealthy closed-shop families in Thailand are not supporters of PAD? Thaksin and democracy was raining on their vain little parade. It was the first time in their life that someone wasn't holding an umbrella for them - and they're going to make sure populism and democracy never rain on them again.

The new country will be called Thayanmar. Sondhi will be Prime Minister and Baldy, his side-kick, will become Interior Minister. Then all their rich little kids will go shopping at Paragon until the stores all close a year or so later and the US and EU sanctions begin to bite.

The estasblishment and the PAD are not exactly the same thing. the PAD which includes a few members of the establishment (not many) have their own agenda and are sometimes used by the bureaucratic establishment who have a seprate agenda. This is complicated by the fact that the TRT and the PPP even more so are stuffed full of establishment figures. This is not about poor oppressed people. It is a plain old fashioned power struggle between members of the establishment. The establishment figures in the bureaucracy and establishment figures in the PPP will in the end probably find a way to work out a deal and get back to business as usual. It is quite likley that there will be a very few establishment casualties in this including Thaksin and extended family and the PAD and of course the UDD which also includes a few establishment figures.

Oh - yes..I agree more or less with that. This is definitely (and always has been) a struggle between the rich and powerful. I'm just trying to make the point that there's much more to PAD than some sense of moral outrage over a crooked politician. There are most certainly behind the scenes 'hands' as the PPP like to call them working to dismantle once and for all 'populist' politics because that would mean those pulling the strings behind the PAD would lose control of their little feudal patronage society. That's all.

PAD isn't exactly a part of the Thai Establishment,

What have you been smoking? You can't possibly think this is some kind of spontaneous romantic movement by the weak and oppressed majority against tyranny?

I suppose you're now going to tell me that the old-family bureaucratic types, curiously rich army figures, Prem, aristocracts, and many, many of the other mysteriously yet fantastically wealthy closed-shop families in Thailand are not supporters of PAD? Thaksin and democracy was raining on their vain little parade. It was the first time in their life that someone wasn't holding an umbrella for them - and they're going to make sure populism and democracy never rain on them again.

The new country will be called Thayanmar. Sondhi will be Prime Minister and Baldy, his side-kick, will become Interior Minister. Then all their rich little kids will go shopping at Paragon until the stores all close a year or so later and the US and EU sanctions begin to bite.

It's the top story on the Beeb's International page now. And as usual, it takes the BBC to call things accurately. Calling a spade and spade..Here's an excerpt.

BBC>

This is a mass protest movement with a difference, according to the BBC correspondent in Bangkok, Jonathan Head.

Despite the name, the People's Alliance for Democracy is actually campaigning for an end to democracy, arguing that in Thailand Western-style elections have only led to corrupt and ineffective governments.

Instead, it wants a largely appointed parliament, and a legalised role for the military as a kind of referee in Thai politics, our correspondent adds.

I reckon if that's what it wants, then Thailand will need to change its name to Burma, eh?