tonititan

- Salaries for specialist teachers (art, physical education, music, technology, etc.) Already covered in my previous post

- Salaries for ESL teachers - Provided by existing teachers

- Salaries for school psychologists, learning support teachers, and other professionals - The parents have to pay this if they want them to come to the school, just ask the parents

Oh, and I just looked at your school's website. It appears that you do have specialist teachers in P.E., music, art, drama, EAL (English as an Additional Language), and Learning Support (which is like Special Education). Do all of these individuals have their own group of students? Do they each have their own group of 15 students paying tuition, or are their salaries covered by the tuition paid by students in the homeroom classrooms?

In terms of the EAL students, the parents have to pay quite a significant extra fee each term, which will more than cover the cost of the teachers, so rather than it being a cost to the school it is a profit earner.

Yeah, I saw that after I posted, when I was looking at the fees page. My question still stands for the specialist teachers and learning support teachers, though.

Here's how it looks on paper to me;

Term fee's are around 125,000 per term x 3 terms

375,000 per year ++ with around 15 students per class = 5,625,000 per class per year.

Less 1 Teacher per class get paid 90,000 per month on average = 1,080,000 per year.

Teachers Aid, if the class is young enough they have a Teachers Aid, usually a Thai National which are paid around 15,000 per month or 180,000 per year.

So;

5,625,000 class fee's plus plus per class, less

1,080,000 teacher (maybe a little more for work permit etc)

180,000 teachers aid

4,365,000 per class to cover admin, maintenance, security.

And there are around 800 students at St Andrew's so at 15 students per class, that around 50 classroom x the above.

Here's another flaw in your calculations. You said that term fees are around 125,000 baht/term. If you look at the fee schedule on St. Andrew's website, you will see that the 125,000/term fee is approximately what the parent of a Year 10, only child would pay. Nursery students only cost 68,124 baht for 5 days, and it goes up with each grade level. In fact, term fees for all students up to Year 10 are significantly less than 125,000 baht. Add on top of that the fact that parents get a 7,000-18,000 baht discount (per term!) for subsequent children, and you should be able to see how wrong your calculations are. Unless of course you also want to argue that there are NO families at your school who have multiple children enrolled, and that ALL students at St. Andrews are in Year 10 or above.

And there are around 800 students at St Andrew's so at 15 students per class, that around 50 classroom x the above.

Taken from the school's website:

St. Andrews International School, Green Valley is a very unique school. We are located between Pattaya and Rayong in the Eastern Seaboard region of Thailand. With a population of nearly 400 students, from around 30 nationalities, we are able to maintain the family feel but are still able to offer the opportunities and diversity of a larger school.

That IS the school we're talking about, right? Hmm. "Nearly 400" or 800?

As far as I've always heard, ASB has a pretty solid reputation. I think it's considered one of the the "1st tier" or "2nd tier" international schools. A few friends used to work there, and they all have pretty good things to say about it.

- Salaries for specialist teachers (art, physical education, music, technology, etc.) Already covered in my previous post

- Salaries for ESL teachers - Provided by existing teachers

- Salaries for school psychologists, learning support teachers, and other professionals - The parents have to pay this if they want them to come to the school, just ask the parents

Oh, and I just looked at your school's website. It appears that you do have specialist teachers in P.E., music, art, drama, EAL (English as an Additional Language), and Learning Support (which is like Special Education). Do all of these individuals have their own group of students? Do they each have their own group of 15 students paying tuition, or are their salaries covered by the tuition paid by students in the homeroom classrooms?

Sounds to me like justification, maybe you work for the school.

You can't tell me there is not much left over when after teacher costs, they still gross 200+ million

No, I don't work for the school. And if you will notice, I stated that those were costs incurred at "most international schools." I never said it was St. Andrew's, and earlier in the thread I clearly stated that I was not affiliated with the school, but work at a different international school.

For "most" international schools, those things I said are all true. Teachers get incoming flights, annual home leave flights, and flights at the end of their contract. Insurance is usually a benefit provided by the school, unless the teacher has several dependents (in that case they may have to pay partial insurance). Many schools provide retirement fund matching if you provide a certain number of years of service to the school. My school will match up to 100%. As for professional development, you asked "Where do they get this is Thailand?" Well, most of the major international schools in Bangkok all provide professional development funds, as ongoing PD is essential for teachers to remain current in their fields. We get PD at various conferences and workshops around Thailand and also around Asia. Signing and longevity bonuses ARE true, again for "most" international schools. I have received them. Most schools offer a signing bonus and/or relocation allowance to help with moving expenses.

And as for all of the other things I listed that you said were "normal expenses" for any business or school, of course they are. I did not say they were unique to international schools, I said that they had to be included when looking at a school's income vs. expenses.

If your school really has NO custodial staff to clean the school, one part-time counselor for the whole school, no ESL specialists, NO support specialists, NO special events provided for students, NO supplemental specialist teachers like art/music/P.E. (since you said that was covered in your previous calculation of 1 teacher per classroom of children), NO curriculum materials provided by the school, and NO paper or books provided to teachers, then you might want to think about finding a new school for your children.

So the question is whether costs have risen by more this year than in previous years. I would suggest that this is extremely unlikely. In fact, the likelihood is that costs will have risen by less than in previous years due to the nature of the economy.

I will fully admit that I am not an economist, nor am I highly knowledgeable about the financial industry, so I apologize if this is way off base or completely naive....

But from what I have been reading all over the news (and in anecdotal stories here on TV), it sounds like the price of almost everything has continued to go up as the economy has worsened. Is that inaccurate? From what I've gathered, suppliers charge more, transporters charge more, banks charge more, etc., and those costs are then passed on to the consumer, or to the next person in the "chain." I have especially heard that in Thailand, when the demand goes down and the economy is weak, prices go way up. Isn't it entirely possible that school fees have been raised because goods and services cost the school more because of the current economy? No one wants to take a cut in profit or salary, so those extra costs may have been passed to the school. The school certainly won't want to take the hit, so they pass it to the parents. It does suck for the parents and the students, though.

I agree with the Mod, I started this in response and protest to the key issue of the amount of fees that is paid to St Andrews Rayong.

Ok, I'll stick to the original topic.

You said:

Here's how it looks on paper to me;

Term fee's are around 125,000 per term x 3 terms

375,000 per year ++ with around 15 students per class = 5,625,000 per class per year.

Less 1 Teacher per class get paid 90,000 per month on average = 1,080,000 per year.

Teachers Aid, if the class is young enough they have a Teachers Aid, usually a Thai National which are paid around 15,000 per month or 180,000 per year.

So;

5,625,000 class fee's plus plus per class, less

1,080,000 teacher (maybe a little more for work permit etc)

180,000 teachers aid

4,365,000 per class to cover admin, maintenance, security

I feel like you are implying that there is not much that needs to be covered by the extra 4 million baht, and that homeroom teacher salary is the main expense. Here are just a fraction of the expenses covered by tuition in most international schools (on top of classroom teacher salaries):

- Airplane tickets for teachers

- Teacher recruitment costs (job fairs are held around the world)

- Insurance for teachers

- Retirement funds

- Professional development for teachers

- Signing and longevity bonuses for teachers

- Salaries for nurses

- Salaries for librarians

- Salaries for specialist teachers (art, physical education, music, technology, etc.)

- Salaries for custodial staff

- Salaries for security guards

- Salaries for school counselors

- Salaries for Thai & foreign language teachers

- Salaries for ESL teachers

- Salaries for school psychologists, learning support teachers, and other professionals

- Salaries for cafeteria workers

- Salaries for HR staff, office staff, secretaries, A/V staff, etc.

- Salaries for maintenance workers, drivers, gardeners, etc.

- Salaries for principals and other administrators

- Fees/salaries for accountants/financial managers/lawyers

- Marketing expenses

- Special school events/productions/concerts/guest speakers/etc.

- Textbooks and curriculum materials, which must be periodically replaced

- Paper & copy machines

- Computers, software, projectors, & other technology, which must also be periodically replaced

- Electricity, water, internet

- Furniture (desks, tables, bookshelves, etc.), which must be periodically replaced

- Art supplies, paper, pens, markers, crayons, glue, paint, etc etc etc.

- Games, manipulatives, posters, etc., all of which must be continually updated/replaced

The list could go on and on, but hopefully I've made my point that there are a LOT of expenses involved in running a quality school program. Looking at only number of students and homeroom teacher salaries is not an accurate way to look at the "fairness" of tuition fees.

I'll go to Pattaya if some friends from overseas come to Thailand. They go there to get laid, and it's a good place for that. But other than that there is no reason to ever go there, the place is a filthy pit. For sure when my family comes here I steer them well away, the place is embarrassing. On the other hand they've loved everywhere else in Thailand I've taken them.

Today I came across 3 new condo developments having sales. Thats fairly good demand for an embarrassing filthy pit.

BTW I aw writing this from the free internet servics at Insonia nigtht club on walking street.

If they are building new condo buildings, then Pattaya MUST not be a filthy place, full of lowlifes, where people go to get laid? Lol, interesting logic there. I think you're confusing money with character. Not all poor people are lowlifes, and not all people who can afford those "luxury condos" you keep mentioning are upstanding individuals.

I mentioned that technicians for example will not have that allowance,neither will have teachers like you.

I also don't have any info that there are 10.000 + children at internationals schools in Thailand other then Regents and St Andrews,I doubt there are that much.But never mind if you have that information then it proves again how connected you are to St Andrews.

Like another poster said, international school teachers DO usually get their child's education paid for, either fully or partially.

And I don't think his estimate of 10,000+ international school students is far off. FYI...Regents and St. Andrews are just 2 of many international schools in Thailand, in Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Phuket, and probably lots of other places I'm not even aware of. In Bangkok, there are several international schools that each have 1000-2000+ students. Add it all the smaller schools, and you're easily at 10,000. And no, just because I know that doesn't meant I'm connected to St. Andrews.

Colleges where? In Thailand? Do you mean, which colleges use which test as a requirement of admission?

To me, the primary role of a school should be education and then if they can warrant the cost of expansion by all means go ahead

I don't know the details of the school in question, but sometimes expansion is necessary in order to increase the quality of education.

One of my biggest peeves is why this school don't give homework - he's in year 3. I've questioned it many times and have been told that some parents don't like their children being pushed too hard so the school doesn't give homework. I'm now of the impression that this is tosh ! The teachers don't want to give it because it's extra work for them.

In the field of education, the "old school" camp believes in giving large amounts of homework. The new train of thought, supported by research, believes that homework is not necessarily helpful for a student, especially at a young age. In some cases it has been found to be detrimental. Educational philosophy is constantly changing, so the type of education we grew up with probably isn't going to be the same as the education children get now. Just because it is different than what you are used to doesn't mean it's wrong. Most schools, including the one I work at, have some sort of homework policy that dictates whether homework should be given, and if so, then how much. So it is quite likely that it is not the teacher's decision. It might be helpful to find out if your child's school has a homework policy.

The killer last year was that in the very week that the local newspapers announced a 3% decrease in the cost of living for the country, the Regents proceded to send out their 3% increase in costs letter. Brilliant economics from all involved !

Lol, it sounds like they learned that one from the rest of Thailand.

Question: Did you just come back from "Phuket", or from Patong?

I ask because there's a lot more to Phuket than Patong Beach.

I was going to say the same thing. I think that Patong does have a similar reputation to Pattaya. Patong is one small part of Phuket, and I believe that in many people's minds, the reputation of the other parts of Phuket override that of Patong.

As for the specifics mentioned by the OP....100 baht charge for beach chairs? I've never paid that in my many trips to Phuket, but of course I don't go to Patong. Skyline full of towers? Why would you want that? Many people, myself included, like to go to the beach to escape the buildings of a city. Towers are even considered a nuisance by many. Chain restaurants? Again, to me this isn't a selling point for a beach town.

lol no I didnt.

I'm glad that you got that it was just a joke.

Recently there was a long discussion about the various hotel search engines, their prices, their features, etc. Maybe it will give you some info:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Hotel-Search...es-t349753.html

Wow, I've stayed at Tub Tim beach and Kae Bae beach before too! Small world. I had the opposite experience. I found KB to be practically dead. I didn't think the beach was all that great because it's just one long stretch and at least the time I was there, the water wasn't very clear. I think that Tub Tim and the next couple beaches down at Koh Samet are all way prettier. Yes, it's easier to get around at Koh Chang because of the main road and all the vehicles, but there's something more charming about the lack of transportation at Samet (a few songtaews and some motorcycles on a dirt road, but you usually walk). And you're right...Tub Tim beach in Samet (which is a tiny beach) doesn't have much nightlife itself. My friends like to stay there because it's quiet and you can get a good night's sleep after a night of partying. You have to walk about 5-10 minutes down the beach and that's where you hit all the bars. The bungalows and resorts down by all the bars are actually too loud in my opinion.

I really think that you can have a great time at either island. It's hit or miss, and largely depends on luck, the weather, how many people happen to be there at the time, which beach you choose, etc. I've been to Samet maybe 7-8 times and Koh Chang 3 times. At both places, I've seen it quiet and low-key with very few people, and I've seen it busier with lots going on. It seems to come down to personal preference. Like I said before, my vote is definitely Samet, but either is nice.

But dodgy taxis are not a case of double pricing, not even in the same league.

They're not the same as double pricing at parks and museums, true. But they can still represent "double pricing" if there is typically one meter price for unsuspecting foreigners and one price for locals. I'm sure some Vietnamese people have been scammed by their taxi drivers, but all of the locals I encountered knew better. I think the overall point is that if the OP wants to escape scams, double pricing, and being taken advantage of, he's not necessarily going to get away from it in neighboring countries.

They sell it at Tops, and I think at several other grocery store chains.

When I saw your headline, I thought it said "Clearly makes men more attractive." I opened the thread expecting it to be about liquor.

Koh Samet is a national park and costs an added 200 baht. It is at least another hour and a half from Pattaya, and Koh Chang a lot further than that.

Yes, you often have to pay the national park fee at Samet if you take the ferry (although occasionally they forget to charge you). If you decide to pay a bit more and take a speedboat, it drops you off at whichever beach you're staying at, and you do not pay the national park fee. If you're good at negotiating, sometimes you can find a speedboat operator that will give you a price that makes it worth it. Then you avoid the national park fee, and the cost of taking a songtaew down the dirt "road" from the pier to your beach. And, the speedboat is a lot more fun.

The beach at Koh Samet is similar, but there is no night life to speak of. You have to bring your own.

What? Are you talking about the same Koh Samet? I think the thing with any island is that there are lots of different beaches, each with its own personality. You have to make sure to stay at a beach that offers what you're looking for. I have heard that Samet has a couple quiet beaches, but all the ones I've been to are rockin. Lots of Thais and expats head down for the weekend to party it up. It seems like there's not a whole lot of foreign tourists. They're far outweighed by people living in Thailand. It has a great island feel, but it's not the Pattaya type of nightlife if that's what you're looking for. I will warn you, though, that if you go during the week, Samet is likely to be much quieter. I've been there mid-week at this time of year, and some of the bars were practically empty. You could still find nightlife, though, because everyone tended to congregate at the same bards. But it's definitely more relaxing and low-key than on the weekends.

Well I've never stayed at the backpackers beach at Koh Chang, but the beaches I stayed at had zero night life. A beach restaurant that wrapped up at about 10 was it. Maybe someone else can tell you a better party beach there.

As for Koh Samet, that's the reason I go...for the nightlife! (And the beaches are prettier than Koh Chang, IMHO.) Lots of great bars along the beach, dance clubs, kareoke bars, anything you could want really.

Samet is a quicker trip from Bangkok than Ko Chang is. Koh Chang may be less developed/less touristy, but Samet has a more natural feel to it - less cars and no real pavement. I've frequented both places and much prefer Koh Samet.

^some taxis do have rigged meters.

But of course that's not applicable in Thiland is it?

I must have imagined those hundreds of posts on Thai Visa complaining about rigegd meters in Bangkok, or refusal to use the meter.

I never said it was exclusive to Vietnam. I was making a point that when the OP said he wanted to leave Thailand (and possibly go to Vietnam) to get away from the double pricing in Thailand, he won't necessarily escape it in neighboring countries.

duplicate post

3. Double pricing.

Have you ever taken a taxi in Hanoi? They are happy to negotiate a "special" rate for foreigners.

Take them all the time.

Never been offered a special rate, they just turn the meter on.

You're right, and I made a mistake in what I meant to say. What I said was actually backwards What I have found to be true is actually that the meter IS the special rate. The first time I went to Hanoi I was warned by the staff at my hotel not to take a metered taxi (unless it was a certain reliable company), because they have several different levels on the meter and will set it to the highest amount for foreigners who don't know better. They told us the amount to expect to pay between a specific landmarks (this was based on the good company's meter rates...some of which we did see with our own eyes), and said we should negotiate that price and refuse to allow the meter. Being optimists, we thought they were exaggerating and thought it would be ok to just take the meter. Nope....the meter was 2 -4 times as much! After that, the taxi drivers appeared embarrassed/guilty when we said that we would like to negotiate a price because we knew the meter would go too high. Of course I can't say that everyone has had that experience in Hanoi, but certainly many of my friends and colleagues have.