Johpa

Errr.... If you were the President of Thai Airways or even the supervisor of the Thai Airways office (or any responsible business rank in between) at the airport and a customer wanted to buy a ticket from you for an overseas destination, how would you feel if your staff said, Oh, our tickets are way too expensive, why don't you go and see the nice lady at the travel agent next door and you'll save loads of money! Commercially questionable, Lady from Thai Airways just doing her job, .....

It is not unusal for an airline or a hotel to have a policy of charging a full rate, a rack rate, at the front desk. And it is not unusal for the staff to suggest going to a nearby travel agent to obtain the more normal discounted rate as opposed to the customer finding an alternative. So yes, she was probably doing her job.

Any remaining credibility has just gone down the pan.

What?!? Someone out there had imagined some remaining credibility accruing on the part of the AOT?!? Does there exist any Thai government arm or agency that one can give a nod of respect to? I would eliminate off the list the military, the police, the Forestry Department, the Tourism Dept, the Customs Dept, and the State Lottery for starters. Can anyone name even one that has retained some credibility over time?

Chaiyo!

Samui before the airport was delight , I mean really, There was a place there called the Rolling Stoned bar where people were laying around smoking killer Thai sticks , no fear of arrest or extortion.

Now they are dumb novice tourist spots.

Wow, what a choice, dumb novice tourists or, what shall we call them, dumb professional tourists who lie around stoned into oblivion on Thai stick.

I use to visit Samui on a regular basis years before they built the airport. Fortunately I never found the Rolling Stone bar. I don't even remember there being any bars on Chaweng in the early years. But we would walk down to Munchies once or twice a week for those famous omlettes.

...... They could be some of those VIP tourists Thailand has been seeking out and now someone has gotten a big whiff of Kroner. I have plenty of ideas on this situation I wont bother with in print............ My red flag has gone up, This could get very interesting?

Yea, I for one have a hard time imaging that if the situation was reversed, that a Farang family on vacation would be able to file charges against a Chinese family that had no Thai relatives and then have the police take away their son's passport. This Danish family needs to find a phu yai to arrange a mutually satisfactual compensation amount or this thing will drag on for months.

I just left that fetid pit called Patong Beach. I am not certain that I have words to convey the utter disgust that I have for the place. BUT I will try.

<see original post for rant>

Senor Liberty, may I suggest engaging in some due diligence prior to travel. Most, if not all of the points in your post could have easily been written 15 or more years ago.

This has to be one of the most idiotic ideas yet, especially after such heavy promotion promoting Suvarnabhumi as one of the most modern airports in the world. I sure hope the transport minister prevails and blocks this ridiculous idea. This idea is no doubt the brainchild of someone whose wealth depended on the success of Don Muang.

What?!? You perhaps believed the nonsense that the Snake Swamp airport, AKA Suvarnabhumi, was going to be a world class, leading edge airport facility and regional hub on its first iteration? This airport has always been a construction project whose primary goal was to enrich contractors and those who issue the contracts first and serve the flying public second. The jostling for position to profit from the building of the Snake Swamp facility has been going on since the 1970s and the Khriangsak era, decades before Don Muang's capacity even became an issue.

It is standard operating procedure in Thailand for a contractor to fail to meet contract guidlines or even fail to complete a contract thus requiring the issueance of new contracts to complete a project.

In the meantime, Don Muang has had several major expansions. If the government could induce the Air Force generals to give up their golf course and their under utilized eastern half of Don Muang Air Field, then even further expansion, including a third runway, would have been possible. But the Air Force generals not only wanted the government to build them a new airport, where the generals themselves would be the ones to profit the most from issued contracts, but also wanted to the government to pay for "their" land at Don Muang. Chaiyo!

I think the re-opening of Don Muang was inevitable. Sure there are lots of people who would benefit from the re-opening, but Don Muang grew organically within a community over generations and many of those who would benefit from the re-opening are ordinary people living close by in the town of Don Muang and the surrounding areas.

As for making connections between Snake Swamp and Don Muang, the easiest solution would be a connecting helicopter flight; otherwise, an overnight transit in Bangkok or Chiang Mai might be needed for the very few people each day who wish to fly direct from overseas to the lesser destinations such as Chiang Rai. And if there were enough demand, I am sure Bangkok Air would initiate flights direct to Samui from the Swamp.

The shame of it all is that the enterence fee paid by visitors to go into the village doesn't get back to the Karen people. That stops with the Thai who built the village, pays off the local immigration, border patrol, and constabulary to allow the Karen to remain there. Of course, he does have his overhead to consider too. After all, he is running a business also. Only the money that the tourists bring and spend gets to the Karen people.

The Hill tribes today (and this was NOT the case 100 years ago,) need the tourist business. Most of them, not just the Long Neck Karen. As modern society encroaches upon their ancient lifestyle, barter alone won't keep them alive and healthy any more. They need folding money to survive today. Folding money that the tourists bring in.

The Fly Fisherman

First, there are plenty of hilltribe villages doing quite well without tourism. Tourism, in the form of trekking, is somewhat isolated to a few areas where there is a diversity of villages within a few days walking distance. There are areas, such as along the Burmese border, where there are many Karen villages but few, if any, trekkers as there are only Karen villages within the neighborhood. That being said, tourism certainly benefits some villages, or more often, some families within the village. The downside is that it can create a certain amount of inequality where previously there was little inequality. But one does not need tourism for that to happen when the modern world encroaches on these villages.

Second, the long-neck Karen, AKA Kayan or Padaung, are not indigenous to Thailand as are the S'gaw and P'wo Karen. These are for the most part, as are the Akha, internally displaced people who have migrated to the border regions to avoid the ethnic conflicts that plague Burma. A few Thais, as well as some Thai S'gaw Karens, saw tourist opportunities by bringing them across the border and displaying the Kayan to foreign tourists, and have reaped some profits. And yes, little of the entrance fee money goes to the Kayan, just as little of your money for that elephant ride go to the mahout, but then again, little of the money you are spending at Tesco goes to the clerks.

I believe the Mae Sa elephant camp is hosting some Kayan so one need not travel too far for a peek. And at least the owner of that tourist establishment will insure the well being of the people far more than some of the more, how shall I say, dispicable folks I have known who have opened such tourist attractions in the past.

In fact it's a disgrace and will lead to all sorts of confusion for short-term tourists who may not

always be sure which airport to use?

The new airport may or may not be a disgrace, but I think most people, even short-term tourtists, can handle the new airport being the major International airport for transcontinental and transoceanic routes with connecting flights to all major domestic destinations with Don Muang being strictly a domestic, or even a regional airport catering to budget airlines. It just isn't that complicated.

Most Thai gold is very sturdy as many pieces have an underlying layer that is not gold. Baat chain can sometimes be heavily plated metal, otherwise it would easily break, and experience, as other posters have noted, shows it does not often break. The really Hi-So people in Bangkok prefer to buy their gold in Hong Kong.

Would be a can of mountain tuna.

I think with the right marketing, with the right graphics, and with the right tourist promotion, one could sell such a can of air with Nana Plaza or Soi Cowboy scented tuna aroma for those who wish to take home some olfactory memories.

Most (not all) of those stores are a waste of time. They stock so little merchandise. As for myself, I won't mind seeing most of them go. As for the 'allure' of the markets, from what I see there are more people in the big shopping malls than in the markets.

I see your point but when every city in the world looks the same, won't it be boring? One big homogenized lump of multi-national-dominated blandness with blanket 24 hr cctv.

Any biologist would tell you that any species without diversity is a species in decline...

But the newer generation of ex-pats, the neo-sahibs, revel in this splendor of the global homogenization (and yes, they tend to be a bit boring, wealthy, but still boring) Do you think they would be living in Thailand without their local Starbucks nearby? With the familiar feel of the malls and the Tescos, they can imagine they are back home, wherever that may be, and not in some third world country with a less-than-stable regime where things can go bad in a flash and investments are not really secured by law. Yep, best to get rid of anything that shouts: "Dorothy, this is not really Kansas here" and please don't take me anywhere that does not have a high-rise commode.

We were looking at a 53 000 baht purchase. Upon hearing about the 3%, my wife told the salesman it was illegal and that she'd call the credit card company to tell them about it. She also mentioned once before that it was illegal. I personally don't know, not a big credit card user.

In the US, it is against the merchant's contract with their credit card processor, as enforced by the VISA/Mastercard consortium (AKA Merchant Services) to assess a surcharge or declare a minimum amount for a purchase. The basis of this ruling goes back to laws made in the late 1950s when gas companies began issuing credit cards and giving out green stamps, decades before generic credit cards were common, and was designed to prevent imagined abuses. The laws are kept on the books in the US more for marketing purposes and for the benefit of the consortium than for anything else. Many merchants now flaunt the minimum purchase requirement and the consortium has not responded although they will threaten to revoke your agreement if they get complaints about a surcharge. By the way, the laws do allow to give a cash discount, just no surcharge. And if you are in the US, look close at the very small print on your friendly ATM payment machine at the fast food eateries where there is up to a $1 added fee for using a debit card, which is about a 20% surcharge for a single meal, and that is legal if it is a debit card.

Not all countries have the same laws and many countries do allow for a surcharge. And even in the US, some companies add a 3% surcharge or declare a minimum purchase ( I have a minimum $5 purchase at my store). I do not know the exact laws in Thailand, but I have seen a 3% surcharge in many places for years in LOS. It is one thing to moan about such surcharges in high margin usages such as restaurants and hotels, but one should not moan too loud when asked for the surcharge in smaller shops.

And when you do use your mileage for a free air ticket, remember that it is the people who accept that card who have payed for that fair at full rack rate out of their own pocket, and you are welcome.

Just go out and get a copy of David's tour books of the region. Although aimed at motorcyclists, many of the road trips work just as well for mountain bikes. Contact him at GT-Rider.com

When my parents left Glasgow (Scotland) with Emirates they had all of their luggage and hand luggage weighed on the scales at check-in.

At BKK the also had all luggage including hand luggage weighed at check-in flying Thai Air to Chiang Mai.

I have never had my hand luggage weighed at BKK.

Has anyone had similar treatment with either Emirates or Thai Air, either from UK or return?

Thanks

In the past, I have had some Thai Air folks at the Domestic terminal try to charge us overage fees based upon domestic flight weight allowances rather than international flight allowances. We had arrived around midnight and were taking a noon flight the following day up to Chiang Mai. The rules do/did allow for a 24 hour transit in Bangkok, but you will need to show your ticket receipts and boarding passes, although I have had to argue my point more than once even with the documents. I have never had to weigh carry-on luggage, now that would be a first.

My gf says if your going to have mixed kids in Thailand that you have to have enough money to send them to a private school. If they go to a government school, they will be assumed to be the kids of a prostitute. This is just what she told me.

I did have friends who sent their luuk khreung kids to a local government school in Mae Rim, north of Chiang Mai, about 10 years ago, and they finally had to take them out due to maltreatment from everyone, students, faculty, and even the bus driver until they paid a nak leng to inform the bus driver that one more incident and he would be in a world of hurt.

My own luuk khreung kids have never had any problems within our village area when visiting Thailand, nor elsewhere in the Kingdom for the most part, and are both well liked by all the local people within thambon, as are all my in-laws. My son speaks nearly fluent village style Northern Thai, filled with local slang, that further endears him to his lifetime pals and turns heads in the city where most of the luuk kreung speak far more polite Thai. But he sometimes overhears rude remarks and he is aware of the racism where it does exist. He is also smart enough to let it go and fortunately, when in Thailand, he is usually in the company of good friends who are tough ass rice farmer's kids who are usually left alone by others.

The more interesting thing is that here in the US, both my kids hang out mostly with other Asian kids who are not Amerasian. They identify themselves more as Asian than as Causasian. Am I being rejected?

I worked as an English teacher for 10 years and many friends married well to do Bangkok women. One married a girl, who lived in Isaarn, whose great-grandfather was the King of Laos. Most of my friends, and I didn't marry anyone from Isarn. It's the older guys who haven't been in Thailand for any length of time that generally marry Isarn girls.

I am sorry to see that you have assimilated the typical "well-to-do" Bangkok racist attitude towards Isaan folks. Do your adopted values also hold negative views towards other ethnic Tai people and the indigenous minorities in the Kingdom or only towards Isaan/Lao folks?

But I should note that well-to-do Bangkok folks are likely (90%) to be Thai-Chinese whose culture is almost a polar opposite of traditional Tai culture (patrilineal vs matrilocal).

This response simply compounds your folly.If you rely mainly on eccentric websites or googling for your information, you are going to be wrong on almost everything.You don't seem to have taken on board any of the information in Carlyle's own web site.I know your opinion will never change (the use of the term "international crony capitalism" gives your game away) but you are completely and utterly misguided on this subject.The world's major ethical investor, Calpers, out of California is a significant investor in Carlyle incidentally.You are also comically ill informed if you think the directors of Carlyle would lift one finger to help Thaksin out of his predicament.Thailand doesn't figure in their investment portfolio and never has, though they had a recce at the time of the economic crisis in the mid 1990's.

I see, you are implying that using the web for research is folly and that web sites that hold an opionion that differ from your own are by default "eccentric". So perhaps you might want to try searching on Amazon for books on Carlyle written by other muddleheads. Or are books that hold opposing opinions to yours also deeemed folly-filled?

I never noted that Carlyle was involved in unethical investing of the sort that interests Calpers. Nor have I even faintly hinted that Carlyle would lift a finger for Thaksin over his current situtation. And nowhere did anyone state that Carlyle invests in Thailand on a regular basis and I do not know whether they have ever invested in a Thai company as I doubt Thailand has the types of investment opportunities that they have historically sought after.

So if you find what people do not say as being comical and you find yourself laughing at some ether-filled vacuum, then perhaps you should seek professional counseling. Or for less money, perhaps stop watching Fox news and learn how to reason coherently and not have to rely upon ad hominem attacks.

Most posters barely seem to know what an investing institution does.Incidentally for the record I don't think Carlyle has any investments in Thailand.

Carlyle is heavily invested in Tamasek , remember those guys.

Ther Carlyle Group is not your ordinary private equity firm and it is not open to just "any" investor and, according to its website, has "more than 1,000 investors" which is not all that many people. It is an investment vehicle of choice for many of the most well connected and wealthiest people on the planet and has a rather large number of very high ranking recently retired government officials who would have insider knowledge of industries that depend upon government contracts and government permits, and it does invest in those industries. Although it also invests in very mainstream opportunities, it is well deserving of its rather nefarious and controversial reputation. One can ague that the Carlyle Group is the apex of international crony capitalism.

Absolute nonsense and surprisingly so given the source.Almost every contention made on the Carlyle Group is plain wrong.One almost despairs when muddleheadedness and ignorance of this sort persists.

Apart from a few muddleheaded ignoramuses with left leaning tendencies like myself, the Carlyle Group was able to exist under the radar screen until 9/11 when the Bin Laden family was noted as major investors. After 9/11 and the ensuing increased scrutiny, it began to clean up the window dressing (the Bin Ladens sold their shares in October of 2001) it used to display itself to the general public. But here are some links to other muddleheaded minions beginning with the muddleheaded entry of Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group (it notes that Thasin was indeed a board member until he took office in 2001)

http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html

http://www.carlylegroup.net/

Or just enter "Carlyle Group" into Google for an almost endless list of likeminded muddleheaded websites and articles. I stand by my original contention that it is fairly easy to argue that the Carlyle Group is indeed "the apex of international crony capitalism."

1. Number One. The name says it is. Lot's of pretty smiles, no hassles, talkative expats.

2. Can Do Bar. I haven't been there yet but any place that gets condom bouquets at their grand opening is OK with me.

3. John's Place. Small Chang, 28 baht. Mekong whiskey, 28 baht. That's with a "Pathetic Old Man Discount Card."

4. Linda's Bar. A dozen girls waiting out front at 6 PM can make a man thirsty.

5. Foxy Lady. Only place that serves up Beer Lao with bikinis.

6. The Peak Pool Bar. Wild turkey, Jose Cuervo...90 baht.

7. The Pub. British Peacocks replace the bar girls.

8. Chiangers and Bangers. But only during a ladies pool tournament.

9. Marijuana. Would have been Number 1 except they don't have any. Not many customers either.

10. Tiger Bar. Good thing they roasted a whole pig instead of a tiger at their grand opening.

1. moon garden

2.black cat

3.the spotlight when it was just one shophouse

4.lindas bar when it was the only bar in loi kroh

5.papa dicks

6.johns place when it was where cosy corner is

7. cosy corner when it was where johns place is

8.any bar down the night bazzarre drain

9.sandys in the bar beer centre ( umm dont ask )

10.the escape ( under the management of dippy eddie )

You joined the forum two days ago and are expressing opinions that should take months of selectivity. How long have you been in Chiang Mai????

The question is not how long someone has been in Chiang Mai, but how long, if ever, it will take them to get out of the tourist ghettos in Chiang Mai.

Another reason for dual pricing, apart from the fact that the Thai people own many of these places via their government, is the spending power discrepancy.

Dual pricing was very common in Europe before EU and the Euro. Places like Spain and Greece very often had different prices for tourists and locals. Nowadays locals and tourists in Europe are more or less on par when it comes to spending power.

Dual pricing still exist at many Tourist locations around the world apart from Thailand. The thing is that locals live there around the year and visit many of these places often so in the end they contribute more than the tourist that only visit the place once.

Here in the US it is often the tourists who get discounts to local tourist attractions and not the locals. There are often discounted tickets that allow entry into mulitiple locations that would be useless to a local, even if available, unless the local was spending their own vacation in town. Although at one major tourist center in Canada, I know that locals can get a whopping 10% discount just about anywhere.

In my youth, I was able to buy a discounted Eurail pass in the US that was lower priced than what I could have found in Europe.

In my limited experience, Thailand is one of the few countries that has all but institutionalized an exaggerated dual pricing system aimed at fleecing the tourists, a dual pricing system that is often based upon race.

The Thai dual pricing system no longer bothers me as I have found countless ways to bypass the system. Sometimes it is simply a matter of speaking Thai or reading the fees as they are written in Thai, so learn your Thai numerology. Often I simply have a Thai do the buying or booking for me. National Parks rarely have fences around them so I sometimes find alternatives to the main gate. And sometimes I simply walk away with a smile and then I find myself invited back at local rates, and other times I simply walk away and look for an alternative. It is just a quirk of the Thai State and when in-country it just isn't a big deal for me. Although from a business perspective, it is a really stupid and short sighted policy, but the Teo Chiu live for the quick buck.

My wife comes from a rural farm family who are fairly self-sufficient as they own productive padi land, but who are rather cash poor. Upon marriage we bought an elephant, my father-inlaw having long been involved with elephants since his youth, for $5,000, and the beast worked at various tourist camps and produced about $100 per month over nearly 20 years before we sold it. I never saw a dime of that money, but then again, it was a great investment as I rarely had to send money over to help out the inlaws and I never hesitated to send funds the few times when called upon to help with transportation, health, or educational needs.

That being said, having observed Thai-Farang marriages for a few decades now, I have never yet met a Thai woman from a rural background who is not sending money back to support her parents, either with her spouse's knowledge or, just as commonly, without her spouse's knoweledge.

"Death squads", lost freedoms - people here are getting a bit more paranoid than usual, that's all.

Which doesn't mean they're wrong.

Actually, I don't see any increase in paranoia amongst the neo-shaib commmunity, the level stays pretty consistent over time.

Most posters barely seem to know what an investing institution does.Incidentally for the record I don't think Carlyle has any investments in Thailand.

Carlyle is heavily invested in Tamasek , remember those guys.

Ther Carlyle Group is not your ordinary private equity firm and it is not open to just "any" investor and, according to its website, has "more than 1,000 investors" which is not all that many people. It is an investment vehicle of choice for many of the most well connected and wealthiest people on the planet and has a rather large number of very high ranking recently retired government officials who would have insider knowledge of industries that depend upon government contracts and government permits, and it does invest in those industries. Although it also invests in very mainstream opportunities, it is well deserving of its rather nefarious and controversial reputation. One can ague that the Carlyle Group is the apex of international crony capitalism.

Thaksin is probably very upset that Thailand just did not fold and wither when he was forced out of office. Everything he did when he was in office was by design to make the country dependant on him thus an attempt to make himself a necessary evil. Because that did not happen a coup is now more likely.

The happenings of the last several days may just be a test to see how the government will react to situations. The statements by the government to expect more bombs says they feel a significant force is behind them. The only significant force not in power is Thaksin.

To summarize I think a coup is likely but not today. I think it may be a week or more away. It depends on the posture of the military and troop deployment. If you see the military in the street again that should be read as the government is very concerned about a real threat. Reimposing martial law in Bangkok may be necessary.

........

I would rather have the coup leaders come to a compromise with Thaksin and at least have him back inside Thai borders rather then have Thaksin spend too much more time spending politcal capital in Beijing. But then again, I am all in favor of the instability if it will deter tourists and thus bring down airfares.

Like you say a compromise is what is needed and will in all likelihood happen although I think it is not jsut about coup leaders and Mr. Thaksin but about old and new power as they are becoming to be known, and these groups contain a lot more of the elite figures than just the few we assume. There is a good opinion in the nation today on exactly this : http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/01/05...on_30023316.php

I guess the alternative will be total instability for a prolonged period.

Your comment on the offer of 30 for tax income is an interesting interpretation and you may be right. It seems that Mr. Thaksins counter offer is along the lines of OK do me and the wife and brother in law but leave the kids out of it. If there is enough stability to allow the cases to progress to completion we may find that a deal has been worked out. However, the stability depends on more than just the coup leaders and Mr. Thaksin although both could do more to insure it. There are also other powerful players who are nobody's puppets out there who have lost power, and at the end of the day that is what all this is about - power.

The Nation writes: "Thailand is a country that is ruled by not more than 100 members of three rival groups: the military, the police, and the old-time political elite. They know what their rivals are up to. If they could agree on sharing the benefits, the whole country would be able to move on. Until that happens, they will pull the strings behind the scenes under the camouflage of democracy, or half-baked democracy, whatever you call it."

I would say that there are far more groups that coalesece around the three institutions above, but there are divisions within each institution, and the Nation does not mention the nuveau-rich such as Thaksin, who formed alliances with some police factions, and who formed a new political elite in opposition to the old "sakdina" guard, who often allied with army factions, and their allies.

Thaksin is probably very upset that Thailand just did not fold and wither when he was forced out of office. Everything he did when he was in office was by design to make the country dependant on him thus an attempt to make himself a necessary evil. Because that did not happen a coup is now more likely.

The happenings of the last several days may just be a test to see how the government will react to situations. The statements by the government to expect more bombs says they feel a significant force is behind them. The only significant force not in power is Thaksin.

To summarize I think a coup is likely but not today. I think it may be a week or more away. It depends on the posture of the military and troop deployment. If you see the military in the street again that should be read as the government is very concerned about a real threat. Reimposing martial law in Bangkok may be necessary.

If you feel that Thaksin was behind the bombings then the questions asked need to revolve around whether it is a good business deal for Thaksin to buy off enough of the military as well as buy off other key interested parties who would then back a counter-coup.

The current leaders have in effect offered the Shinawats a deal for about 30% of their last big business deal in the form of taxes that would of course be used to pay their own pet projects. After all, there are no questions of politics involved here despite the newest constitutional assembly in the never ending soap opera of constitutional reform in a country that defines crony capitalism. The newest constitutional assmebly is just some manna to placate the urban middle class just as the rural loan programs were used as manna to placate the rural folks. The purpose of the manna is simply to distract people from the pilfering of the State by the elite.

I would rather have the coup leaders come to a compromise with Thaksin and at least have him back inside Thai borders rather then have Thaksin spend too much more time spending politcal capital in Beijing. But then again, I am all in favor of the instability if it will deter tourists and thus bring down airfares.