drummer

You are so smart ,must teach English.

Thats right ... nothing to say, so insult! Great job, buddy. You are the envy of all the other posters. Your wit astounds and befuddles.

BTW - no, I don't teach english. Care to try again? (Hint - I am a teacher, but in the US)

FYI - there is a product called GSE - Graprfruit Seed Extract - that works wonders on diahhrea.

I don't know if you can get it in LOS, though. My mom brought some out for me when she came out to visit. It sat around for a while, but one day I Moctezuma gor his Revenge by shaking up bottles of soda. I tried 2 different knids of antibiotics from Boots/Watsons, and it didn;'t help at all. I ntoiced the little bottle and tried it, and the symptoms stopped.

Within 10 minutes.

I didn't take a follow up dose and it came back, but when I took it all the next day it was gone for good.

Anyone who wanted to import/advertise this stuff could probably make a good living. Cheaper/more effective/better for you than antibiotics. Could be a big Thai market, and could probably make it locally - I don't really know anything more about it, though. (tastes like the inside peel of the grapefruit, only more so!)

Dude - it maxes out at 20K .... ROFL

That would be early humans - referring to Homo erectus et al. Most people agree that Asians are not early humans, but modern H. sapiens... However, many people do classify your average sexpat as Homo erectus....

I don't know about internet sites, but Grammy and others sell a guitar tab book of all the famous Thai songs - ou can find it in many book stores. I've seen it in 7-11 more than a few times!

OH - and GSE - Grapefruit Seed Extract. It is amazing against diahhrea and food poisoning. Instant cessation of symptoms. FAR better than antibiotics. Extremely bitter, though!

Real root beer, if nobody has mentioned it, and Fabreeze. For those not familiar, Fabreeze is a corn derivative product that gets rid of many houshold odors from baby puke to cat piss to cigarette smoke by bonding with it. Works great and quickly. Surprised its not in Thailand yet. I've seen it in Malaysia.

You can really tell a lot about where a person by the way they move. Americans walk differently than Thais, who can be easily differentiated from Nigerians. Gesticulations tell you a lot more.

Its not 100%, but listening to language and accents gives you a much clearer picture.

You cannot look at a photo and tell if they are African or not. (although, if they are Masai or Aka then you can hazard a good guess...

Countries with cold weather tend to have people who think better because the need to survive and be comfortable is greater. Crops die, moving from place to place in the freezing cold is not fun.. and you just tend to come up with ideas on how to survive. The lazy gene is forced out of you.

lazy gene?

LAZY GENE??

That is a whole MESS of drivel on many levels. Starting with a complete misunderstanding on how genetics work, including no comprehension of history, add in no consideration of competing theories, and finish up with a round ignorance of any related factors. That has more holes than Caesar.

Look - Europe+US have colonized most of the rest of the world, shipping off their natural resources to the glory of the Old Country, much to the detriment of the colonies. Many areas, such as almost all of Africa and Iraq, were divied up with no regard to the de facto political boundaries that existed, creating grounds for civil wars. Like the one in Iraq today. Iran was a republic before Britian had the PM offed in favor of the Shah to support BP oil. Now Iran is a mess.

*THAT* explains the "headstart" ... if it ever needed explaining, which it doesn't. The genetic variation doesn't mean much at all. Overall, the genetic variation in humans is very small. There was NO headstart. Technological headstarts mean far more... chariots, longbows, steam engines, etc.

And re: smaller/bigger ... there are ethnic differences in size, although mostly it is a matter of diet. The younger Japanese are pretty tall these days - typically over a foot taller than their grandparents. You can often tell Hi-So Thais because they are TALL compared to everyone else. If you ever see a Thai over 6", feel free to speak in English to them because they will almost undoubtedly understand! Thats been my exclusive experience, anyway.

I wonder why Africa is so backward with that big headstart?

The same reason why Spain, Britain, the Romans, Germans, Mongolians, Persians, etc. no longer have empires. It's not the head start that counts. It's keeping a steady pace.

Anyone ever see "The God's Must Be Crazy"? The movie about the Bushmen in the Kalahari? it is an interesting story - when the Bushmen were discovered by Eruopean anthropologists, there older among them remembered a time when they herded goats in the plains outside the Kalahari. The anthrolopologists saw them as hunter gatherers, and automatically assumed they had been there since the dawn of humanity.

Really, what happened, is that the Zulus were the leading edge of the Bantu Empire - one of the largest empires in world history - centered in West Africa. At one time it included everything from south North Africa to the edge of Sudan to South Africa. So the Bushmen were getting atacked by the Zulus and getting pushed south. then, the Dutch and English started coming in rom the South, and the Bushmen didn't have anywhere to go. They hid in the Kalahri instead of getting killed.

They are excavating a 500 year old library in Timbuktu that probably has over a million books. Hundreds of thousands have already been excavated.

The Europeans had a major headstart worldwide with the industrial revolution, and colonized most of the rest of the world. This often meant importing their resources to Europe. many areas of the world, such as Peru, Cambodia, China, and India are still recovering. Look at the economic data and you will see that China and India have historically far outproduced Europe and everyone else. The current situation is a major exception to world history.

Of course, it is really easy to think you are better than others if you remain as ignorant as possible...

On the other hand, there really are a lot of African drug dealers. One reason Africans will often try to start a conversation is that they are trying to make a sale. A lot of them aren't, though, and that is an important thing to consider. Many are simply being friendly!

Watch your wallet? sure! But watch it with your Thai wife, too! And watch it with your white business partner.

People are people. Its not the skin color that makes people a certain way - it is cultural values and opportunities. A lot of farang are ESL teachers because thats pretty much the only option they have to stay in Thailand. A lot of them stay in Thailand because of the prostitutes. There are the same 'why's to the Thais and the Africans as well. A lot of Thai women becomes prostitute because it makes a lot of money and is a culturally acceptable thing to do. 2nd generation Thais in the US are culturally American, and would typically never want to become a prostitute.

Finally, just because a person is black, does not make them african. They could be from Europe, the US, Saudi Arabia... lets face it, any country that has ever engaged in a slave trade, can have people who are black in colour, and that does not make them "african". Just black.

I think the OP asked about Africans, not blacks It is gnerally pretty obvious whether someone is African or a black European or black American. Aside from language/accent, the body language often makes it clear from a distance. Africans tend to talk loudly and use exagerated body movements. (Thats a cultural trait, not a racial trait) This is another thing that gives them a really bad rep in the LOS - Thai's are so demure that they find anyone who talks loud or uses big arm movements to be really "low class."

Anyway - no need to insert racism where none is!

We all evolved in Africa, and only tiny groups ever made it out! The rest of us are like the Siberian Tiger...

................................................................................

..............

Please tell us more how you came to this conclusion?

That we evolved in Africa? uhhhh, I made that part up. The rest of it I got from

my fancy college education. Specifically from my collegiate study of Paleoanthropology.

(snip)

:D At leaast you are honest dude!

College degrees.. Once upon a time used to be valuable things...

Nowadays, brainwashing courses sponsored by the geo-political Corporate society we are repressed by.

Stay away from Colleges and Uni's I say. Their Curriculums only follow politics these days.

Once upon a time they used to influence the same.

Let me guess ... fundamentalist Christian who believes the world was in fact made in 6 days and that the world is only 6,000 years old, right?

And only by the grace of God does the internet connection work....

I think the smiley means that post was a joke, mate

ROFL

That we evolved in Africa? uhhhh, I made that part up. The rest of it I got from

my fancy college education. Specifically from my collegiate study of Paleoanthropology.

I can get more detailed if you like, but if you think about it, it really makes a lot of sense.

i guess they are here for the same reason as white, yellow, brown, blue, purple & green - beacuse it's there!

Thats about the long and short of it, really!!!

Of course, there are a few things to consider.

First, you will almost NEVER see a black of any nationality in an visible job because they are black. In Thailand, skin color (financial status, good looks, etc) is often taken as an indicator of past merit... the whiter you are the better you were in the last life.

Another interesting bit about race and Africans... genetically speaking, Africans (excluding expats and imports) have 10 times as much genetic variation as the rest of the world put together. In other words the difference between Innuit, Sweedes, Thai, Greek, and Japanese is

@---@

The difference between the avrious ethnic groups in Africa - (the Zulu, Hutu, Bamileke, etc)

@------------------------------@

This would seem to indicate that making assumptions about Africans would be on tin ice. much easier to say that all English are this way or all Russians are this way. (or rather, all English and Russians and Japanese and Indian people are this way) than it would be to come to any sort of conclusion about African people.

We all evolved in Africa, and only tiny groups ever made it out! The rest of us are like the Siberian Tiger...

That being said, there msot of Africa is poor, and that is a good indicator of a number of attributes. Thats not being racist, thats being - well, classist, I guess. There are a number of generalizations you can come to. A non african one that would be more illustrative is this one: "Most European expats are unqualified ESL teachers and whoremongers."

This isn't unfounded and to a certain degree it is indeed true. however, I would like to comment on the validity of any generalization you come to by using it. Afterall, there are very well qualified ESL teachers and there are many other professions that hire those in the world's oldest profession (such as George Bush's younger brother Niel).

You can draw some conclusions about what the Africans are doing here, but how useful would it be? They are mostly here "just because" ... like everyone else, doing whatever is available to them (like the ESL teachers)

Hardly comparing apples to apples, are you, lopburi?

The US isn't trying to promote international tourism, and does not rely on tourism for a large part of their GDP. Thailand, in theory, is and in fact, does.

In addition, the longstayers coming from Western countries are almost exclusively better educated than the average Thai, and again, almost exclusively, not only has a higher earning power than the average Thai but also imports money into the economy.

Now - if you were to go to the US with a college education and high test scores, then you would find that your visa would get the red carpet treatment. The US does want educated people and will expedite visas for them. In addition, once you get into the US, then you are generally treated like a citizen.

Incidentally, I am in a somewhat similar situation. I have a wife and 2 year old son. The difficulties of getting work permits in LOS (even while married) have led to me+my son being in the US and my wife in Thailand. We are waiting for her US visa, but she wants to finish school in LOS before coming over, and that will take longer than the visa anyway. We would have the visa already, excect that our plan was for all of us to still be in the LOS at this point.

Unfortunately, work permit problems have led to unfulfilled contracts and related problems. For example, one contract aws never materialized when th WP took too long. A great many teaching jobs - drum lesons - were made impossible due to the difficulty of geting work permits. Even at international schools. I never had a job that did not have work permit glitches. The result was that mot of the time I was not working and spending my savings. I'm married with children in LOS and can't work there. Those problems, combined with the new visa situation have led to us deciding leaving LOS would be the best course of action, even if my wife had to wait a year.

Does that count as a "Thai" policy that are seperating families and reducing the economy in the country?

I would be happy to support laws that make tourist visas for tourists only.

However, these laws do give ample run-around for those that want to. Criminals can and do have plenty of options to stay in LOS.

The issue of permanent residence is different. Thailand stands to benefit economically from an easy permanent resident or longstay visa program. They could do extended background checks,

Another word about the backpackers, is that backpackers spend more than the well heeled tourists. Not only do backpackers stay longer, they also take the time to go to the temples, the local restaurants, and stay in locally owned and run guesthouses ... this puts nearly all their money into the Thai economy. THis means that their money gets spent and spent again in Thailand - and the Thai goverment gets to tax it and tax it again and again.

Well heeled tourists tend to stay in internationally owned hotels and buy food in internationally owned restaurants. This helps Paris Hilton buy a new dress. It just doesn't make sense economically to prefer the latter over the former.

Even the budget longstayers contribute mightily to the Thai economy. In another thread I calculated the visa runners economic impact as at least 0.5% of the Thai GDP. (you can search for the calculations) .... this is a LOT!

Other nations, like Malaysia, are opening their borders because of this reason. The backpackers and the longstayers add a lot of money that floats all boats.

But, then, we all know the reason for these laws has nothing to do with economy and everything to do with xenophobia and ironic attempts at face saving.

The point is : why don't we have precise numbers ?

Thais like to phrase the law so as to give a lot of leeway for the inividual corcumstance. You aren't likely to get '3 Strikes' laws in LOS.

Only the rich are good and the poor are bad? Gimme a break!

In Thailand, the rich are rich precisely because they ARE good! If you made a lot of merit in the last mife, you are rich in this life.

If you were a lowlife alcoholic child molester, then you are poor and dark-skinned in this life.

I admire a great many things about Buddhism, but this particular aspect of Thai Buddhism really gets my goat as being harmful to society.

Contrasts:

* Old bar-hanging single guy of +50 years is allowed to stay in Thailand just showing 800,000 baht on his OWN bank account, while his neighbours living 50 metres further, a young and happily married couple with children, are kicked out and seperated.

* Not even one western country treats foreign partners in such an inhumane way as Thailand does.

Good example: The young couple have bad spirits because they don't have enough money. The older bar owner is a good guy, because he does.

Money is a direct indicator of merit in Thailand!

Also, bear in mind that in Cambodia people use Dollars not Baht. You don't need to convert into loal currency, and, if you take the KSR bus, you will stop by a currency exchange that is a total ripoff. The KSR is very cheap, but if flying is a possibility I'd recommend that - the trip by minibus is difficult. The bus is bad, the road is bad, and the food is bad...

Guest Houses in Siam Riep are really very cheap, but the food is awful.

Ankhor is great! Make sure to stop by the land mine museum! And yes, the place they took us too was OK - I looked around a bit and had no problem with the price or the room.

You will pay like $20 for 1 day pass, or $40 for 3 days. (per person) Thats the most expensive part. You can get a 5-7 day pass, bt after 3 days you *WILL* be going "oh jesus- not another temple!"

Most likely no problem... but you might consider getting an official tourist visa - like a triple entry Tuorist Visa at your local Embassy/Consulate ... With the current situation with the Visa-On-Arrivals, such a moev might prove useful if you plan on travelling around SE Asia and want to come in and out of Thailand during that time. As it is now, you may or may not be able to get a 30 Visa Waiver 180 days after your first one. (Even if you have only been in Thailand for a week total!) ... but if you get the official tourist visa, then that avoids the problem. It pretty comparable in price, too.

More Russian hoes in Pattaya and more places to get decent Stroganoff.

Is the latter because of the former?

I agree largely with cobra.... (they say that Men marry thinking everything will stay the same and women marry hoping everything will change) It is your perogative and you should remain honest to your intentions.

Again - it is a stereotype, but its an all-too-common story... The Issan girl who seduces and marries a farang only to take him for everything he is worth at the earliest opportunity. Just something to be wary of since you seem to fit the major warning signs (i.e. big age difference and Issan girl)

BTW I meant to elaborate on an earlier point.

She's 18, your 44 ... She's in it for the money - pure and simple. her having a kid already is also suspicious. It is common for girls to give their kids to their parents to take care of while they work.

This is an important point to my mind. Either (1) - you won't let the kid stay with you, in which case she is probably harboring a lot of resentment somewhere, (2) she doesn't WANT the kid, and/or thinks that her parents will do a much better job (not all that uncommon)

If its #1 than you are in SERIOUS TROUBLE. Drop her yesterday. Give her a wad of cash so she can save face if you want, but get rid of her.

Feel out the kid situation, though. The kid may be a major reason why she wants to go back home. Having the kid with you may not be so bad. You can get a maid and send less $$ back to the folks. No real change in the way you do business, except in childproofing the house... the maid takes all the responsibility. (better to pay her a lower salary and then give a daily stipend out of your good will than to pay a high salary and no 'good will')

Maybe some of the other posters can give a better picture, but my feeling is that if you move to the sticks with her then it will be to assimilate - something that you don't want to do by the tone of your posts, and your history of never going there before.

DD: preface by noting I sense that you are dictating things in your terms - fairly according to farangland. you seem to be a nice enough and smart enough guy. However, things are different in Thailand, and you are falling into some traps that you may never be able to dig yourself out of.

I suspect, indeed believe, the whole idea that the guy should 'do the right thing' is based on the presumption that the woman is in some sense incapable of taking charge of her own life.

Very interseting idea here.... Thai culture - Issan especially - the women handle all the money and the men are irresponsible and get allowances from the matriarch. Women get security from relationships this way. Men are

Given: Women deeply need security in a relationship, more than anything else.

From my understanding, Western women get security from a loving and equal relationship, from owning fully half of the assets, and often working herself.

In Thailand, the Western ideal of the equal and loving relationship doesn't hold. Men are fllirts and cheats, have minor wives, no exceptions - full stop. Its a cultural given. No way around it. Women dislike it, but there is no way to avoid human nature. Women then get their security by controlling the money. In Thailand it is customary fo all the immediate family to hand the money to the atriarch, and for her to hand the money out. Men get allowances, and are generally seen as financially irresponsible (sound familiar?)

I don't speak enough Thai to know, but I've heard that the wod for 'husband' includes the connotation of "the guy who provides the money". It is completely different and in many ways irroconcilable with the Western view of marriage and relationships. The word for wife includes the connotation "the woman who takes care of you."

Thats the official exchange- thats the way the world works. Without understanding this and its effects (or a wife who understand and acccepts farang culture) you are doomed.

Another thing to consider is that this is generally MORE true in Issan then elsewhere in Thailand. Issan girls provide the bulk of the prostitutes nationwide. (issan, north, BKK, south, in that order, adjusted for population) This is, as I understand it currently - not just because Issan is poorer than the other areas and lower status than the other areas, but also that culturally these aspects are stronger. The South, for example, is resource rich and has a lot of exposure to other cultures (being in a major trade route position)

The fact that your girl is 18, and wanted to get married right away (and from Issan) suggests this:

She is in it for the money.

Sure, other things matter, like love and whatnot. This does not make her a prostitute automatically ... the approach it is pretty much a given, with her resources and culture. I would watch your own bank account, though - just out of respect for those that have gone before you. There are more than a few horror stories.

Another thing - especialy in Issan, getting taken to farangland is one-upsmanship game that women play with each other. Its status more than anything. just my own observation. (Actually- I'm mostly parroting my wife's, although I did notice body language on at least 2 occaisions when the subject came up)

If you want to keep playing things in your terms, and not assimilate (that is a decision I made) then you need to get her educated. Sell her on the idea that it will provide security for her. This might involve sending her to Farangland to go to University, which would provide her with the means to take care of her family by herself. No need for you at all. If you see where i'm going with this... it is a less ... shocking/culturally ignorant ... way to get to where Nam Khao was going.

Also, broadening her worldview would also bring her culturally closer to you and provide a lot more commonality ... strengthening the Western ideal of an equal relationship.... (in other words... open the cage door in a meaningful way)

Another point is naam jai - or generosity. Your providing a fixed stipend a month, + extras, makes a lot of sense for Westerners, but what would strangely put you in better esteem would be to lower the stipend, but give her the same amount anyway. if you do more than you say, tehn you are being generous. You get generous points even if the payout is exactly the same.

I am making another assumption here - that this is a long term relationship, you do care about her. For all intents and purposes, you are married already, and would be legally married at this point in many countries (a common law marriage) ... something to consider.

I don't know about an imm office, but I think there are a lot of Dalmations there...

Well, the idea is that she finishes high school in Thailand - she is almost done - and then going to University in the States. Going though high school in the US isn't much of an option - she's too old for high schools here so would have to get her GED anyway - and having a high school diploma - even from a foreign country - would her her get work and, of course, into University here. Thats the thinking. When she finishes Uni she can go back to Thailand and get some nice jobs with her educatio and experience (plus her intelligence and work ethic - which has had her promoted above older co-workers in Thailand before) Incidentally, she dropped out when she saw some of her co-workers had Uni degrees and were getting the same pay as her...)

Any advice, input, or eprsonal expeirience would be appreciated.

thanks