johng Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 saw a young lady on Sukhumveit Sukhumvit Soi 4 ??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenk3z Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Thanks for the constructive comments and I appreciate your efforts to distance merely having a tatoo from automatically indicating a bar girl. Of course I knew that was too broad an assumption. But it does seem to factor into the odds and indications. The same way an Adam's Apple on the throat factors into the odds and indications of the infamous Katoey. Maybe not as close a correlation, mind you..... Many things have I learned about Thailand from reading, visiting and discussing things with others. For example, I thought I could just rent a car and drive in Thailand with no more consequences than in my home country. HA! Good thing I got talked out of THAT. kenk3z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodypaul Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 SHOPGURL And what's this with the whole "dark skin from issan being a BG for sure" classification? We always talk about how farangs are chauvinistic or degrading or etc... but one good thing that always seems to hold true with any I do meet is that they are much accepting of a person because of substance than of appearances. Unlike many Thais who have built up this prejudice that dark skin is of great disgust adding to the marketing of whitening creams and such other products, it seems that we have induced this on ourselves inadvertantly and sadly I find it appalling that one's self worth is based on skin color? Haven't we moved passed this yet? I like the dark skin .... why use whitening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elsie Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 my wife has lovely tanned skin, she has 3 tatoos and she sometimes shows a bit of cleavage, does that mean she's a prostitute?i think not Nothing wrong with that at all, DT. Sometimes we tend to pick our outfit based on our moods at the moment. If we feel sexy, we will dress that way. That's why we pack more clothes than you when we get away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maerim Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 If you don't know at first, try getting married to her and see what you think as soon as she has a passport for the country she emigrated to after a couple of years and a divorce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbkudu Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Am I the only one who is trying to shed some light on the wrong belief that one can NOT be judged from physical appearances? Have we all so easily concluded the (desired?) belief that women who show cleavage are prostitutes?And what's this with the whole "dark skin from issan being a BG for sure" classification? We always talk about how farangs are chauvinistic or degrading or etc... but one good thing that always seems to hold true with any I do meet is that they are much accepting of a person because of substance than of appearances. Unlike many Thais who have built up this prejudice that dark skin is of great disgust adding to the marketing of whitening creams and such other products, it seems that we have induced this on ourselves inadvertantly and sadly I find it appalling that one's self worth is based on skin color? Haven't we moved passed this yet? Shopgurl, I think you are missing something here. In my first post I said appearence is NOT an indication, but rather speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medicinebox Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Can we extend on the 'eye contact' thing? I've noticed that TG's seem to hold gazes much more than falang girls. Maybe they are just friendlier. I think the question is, on the scale of things, where do they become definable as a BG? I had a TGF for 13months, who was just out of a 7 year marrage to a falang. I met her the day she arrived at the condo's I was staying. In Pattaya. She had came to work as a hotel receptionist. The point I'm making is, she came looking for a falang boyfriend. If it wasn't me it would have been matey. So on a lower scale she was looking for the same thing BG's look for every night. Hope it makes sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonthaya Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Not all BG's are the same,on my last one month I found a lovely 30 year girl from Udon Thani, her name Sonthaya. I'm an old fat Farang, but she gave me the holiday of my life, money was never mentioned, I paid her on departure. Many of the BG's make you feel so well, not like here in Europe where it's just business, it's more like a relationship. I know I'm kidding myself, it's business, but they don't make feel that way, so please be kind to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDN Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 There is a lot of prejudices against bar girls.Is it in the way they dress? How much gold they wear? How they speak? How they behave with the "boyfriend"? What a great thread this is - and interesting replies too. In my short time here, I have noticed one characteristic of bar girls that nobody has so far mentioned - their eyes. It's the way they look around at everybody while they are with you. It's as if they are checking out their next "customer" if you turn out to be "kinneeow mak mak" - a cheap charlie, or as Issan girls would say "kinneeow jang leuey!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davethailand Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 my wife has lovely tanned skin, she has 3 tatoos and she sometimes shows a bit of cleavage, does that mean she's a prostitute?i think not Nothing wrong with that at all, DT. Sometimes we tend to pick our outfit based on our moods at the moment. If we feel sexy, we will dress that way. That's why we pack more clothes than you when we get away. i know full well LC, i have to carry the suitcase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natee1 Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 I heard they get the tatoos in prison, any truth in this? And Bluecat, you promised to reveal the 5. tell-tale sign, what is it, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted May 10, 2004 Author Share Posted May 10, 2004 And Bluecat, you promised to reveal the 5. tell-tale sign, what is it, please? First I want to say and it has been said before that not all BG are the same as not all girls are the same. Let's just say writing about the common "perception" among Thai people and some farang. For the 5th factor: I'm afraid it has been mentioned already. I did not want to say it because this is one of the criteria used by the Thai people that is, let's call it "racist"(not really the definition of racist but I have no better one), this is the dark skin. If they see a girl with a dark skin and a farang they automatically assume she's a BG (sorry, LC). The fairer the skin, the more "confused" they are on the status of the TG. And unfortunately, on that criteria, not much can been done. But all the other comments are also right. Thai girls are usually not very loud in public (except sometimes after a few drinks ) and hence the "noise" level is a factor as well as the way they talk English or/and Thai (the majority unfortunately have quite a low education level). Not all the BG have a tatoo but very few non BG have a tatoo,... And they do not get it in prison. The way the girls dress is not an important factor but probably is if you apply for a visa for her. She probably has to dress a bit conservatively. Wearing a lot of gold does not usually help also,... The look is indeed a give away in the sense that BG are very fast in the eye contact department and always, always looking for a possible "alternative",... But anyway, all of that is for BG still BG. When they marry a farang or a Thai, they are not BG anymore (waiting for Erco reply ) and hence part or all of these giveaways will disappear. The shorter time spent as a BG, the easier to make them disappear,... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknight Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 I'm getting tired of these distinctions between "bar girls" and " good girls". Neither of them mean that one or the other is of better character, judgment, moral then the other variety. Girls are girls , women are women just as boys will be boys and men are men... We all are looking for some thing in life be it love, money, stability, relations, friends, ect... Depending on the possebilities we get from our talent, intellect, education, social background, attitude we all chose this or another way of life which suits us and our characters. Not one way of life should be condemned to be better or worse then another one, YOur bargirl may have been a princess if she was born in a different famillie. You can only call that bad or good luck..nothing more. I evaluate people on their character, honesty, respect, intellect and not on their outward appearance. I've met "Bar girls" that were very honest , respectfull and smart in life and only had the bad luck to start at the bottom of the ladder. I've met high class women who were sluts in my opinion, but they behave like they were royalty... Also in my opinion you attract other people in comparison to your own character and energy. So if you find your self surrounded by sleazy alcoholics all the time it probably say's something about yourself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davethailand Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 I'm getting tired of these distinctions between "bar girls" and " good girls". Neither of them mean that one or the other is of better character, judgment, moral then the other variety. Girls are girls , women are women just as boys will be boys and men are men... We all are looking for some thing in life be it love, money, stability, relations, friends, ect... Depending on the possebilities we get from our talent, intellect, education, social background, attitude we all chose this or another way of life which suits us and our characters. Not one way of life should be condemned to be better or worse then another one, YOur bargirl may have been a princess if she was born in a different famillie. You can only call that bad or good luck..nothing more. I evaluate people on their character, honesty, respect, intellect and not on their outward appearance. I've met "Bar girls" that were very honest , respectfull and smart in life and only had the bad luck to start at the bottom of the ladder. I've met high class women who were sluts in my opinion, but they behave like they were royalty... Also in my opinion you attract other people in comparison to your own character and energy. So if you find your self surrounded by sleazy alcoholics all the time it probably say's something about yourself... Great post, agreed 100%, that should be end of topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted May 10, 2004 Author Share Posted May 10, 2004 True Darknight but slightly off topic. There is a lot of prejudices against bar girls.Right or wrong does not matter. They are not really at the top of the "recognition" scale as far as Thai people are concerned and it can affect the farang who stay with them IN THAILAND as well as affect their social encounters,... Plus, they are not that welcome in the western embassies and they can have quite some difficulties getting a visa. The prejudice is there, like it or not. If you work for a Thai company or with Thai people, you will be judged also by whom you choose as a boyfriend/girlfriend. Prejudice, prejudice,... And she will be judged,.. You can hate it, you can hate them, that's unfortunately how it is. Some farang will not mind , maybe you will not mind but Thai girls will and as you rightly said, a BG is a Thai girl,... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted May 10, 2004 Author Share Posted May 10, 2004 BTW, it seems to me that people get a bit "emotional" when there is a thread about BG. It is either you love them or you hate them. Same for the people who have a BG as girlfriend/wife. No middle ground. Can't we try to be a bit objective on the question, sometimes,... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Second that motion Bluecat! It's like asking, how to tell if a person is is a terrorist? Brings up much controversy and emotions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 A couple quotes I thought might mesh with this topic: "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a mechanic" - Laurence J. Peter Can we also conclude that a girl going into a bar doesn't make you a bar girl??? One more, "Some people take no mental exercises apart from jumping to conclusions" - Harold Acton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Up2U Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 Bluecat, I think this is a tough one. It will be hard for people to discuss this without going on into all sorts of ethnic stereotypes like dark skin ect...In my opinion appearance doesn't mean much; speech is a dead giveaway. Not necessarily the way they speak Thai, but the way they speak English. Agreed - and I'm trying to cure my wife of it. She picked up alot of bad English when she ran a 'beauty salon' that basically catered to bar girls (and boys). Also she is from Issaan, darkish skin, lots of gold and so on. When we were in Malaysia last week she was going crazy 'Why is everyone looking at me?' and she was dressed conservatively, compared to Pattaya. Jeans instead of white shorts, modest tops. But still she felt alienated. In Pattaya it doesn't matter - she's used to being looked at, especially when just the two of us are out together. When our six-year-old daughter is with us, different vibes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanchao Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 You know.. I think the original topic/question was a bit beside the point. (Though I do positively value it, or I wouldn't get all geared up in writing the following : Thai people don't care if your girlfriend is/was a bargirl or not. For all intends and purposes, even YOUR EMBASSY doesn't care if she is/was a bargirl or not when applying for a visa. Or does anyone think they have positive proof of this in every case they turn down a visa application? What they do care about, whether they admit it or not, is 'class' and I DONT mean this in the dictionary definition of being 'classy' or not. Class here means 'level' or 'social or regional background.' Your embassy doesn't ask your girlfriend if she is a bargirl. They ask: * What's your name * Where are you from * What is your education * What her profession * Do you have children * Are you married If the answers are (or are assumed to be) respectively: * Some pretty low class last name * North East * P.6 (if that) * No profession, or 'farmer', etc. * Yes has a kid * Not married, or married before, but not to you. There's probably a couple more than these, but if the majority of these 6 answers are as stated above, then she will be in a particular class that makes it rather unlikely that people will think of her highly. Merely being a bargirl doesn't matter all that much to Thai people. Of course: an important factor is also 'looks & behavior' : Being "tall, white and proud" will account for something as well, and perhaps counter things like 'a less hi-so last name', 'being from the North East' or 'being divorced'. Note that you could easily BE a prostitute but hail from Bangkok, have somewhat of an education and a sugar-daddy sponsored job at his company. This person WILL be thought of more highly, and probably has a much better chance of getting a visa.. But she's effectively a prostitute, mia noi, mistress, etc. Is that fair to your TOTALLY 'good-girl' waitress girlfriend? ###### NO! But that's life, and it sucks sometimes. It would also be nice if embassies didn't perpetuate this practise, either through their own policy or through bigotry on the part of their Thai staff (or both).. that's democratic free countries for ya. Cheers, Chanchao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snark Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanchao Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 Many things have I learned about Thailand from reading, visiting and discussing things with others. For example, I thought I could just rent a car and drive in Thailand with no more consequences than in my home country. HA! Good thing I got talked out of THAT. Huh? I do that all the time and is a great way to see the country? Who gave you that advice? (Assuming you take care of some basics of course, like get insurance and don't attempt to drive into Bangkok straight off the plane on your first visit.) Maybe start a separate topic on this? (or can anyone point me to an existing one?) Cheers, Chanchao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 * Some pretty low class last name How are these identified? I can understand a 'high class' name being recognised, but not a 'low class' name, unless all other names count as low class. For instance, how would 'Srimueang' (as in the former Palang Dharma leader) rate and why? This one appears to be an exception to the alleged rule that people with the same surname are related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted May 11, 2004 Author Share Posted May 11, 2004 Thai people don't care if your girlfriend is/was a bargirl or not. For all intends and purposes, even YOUR EMBASSY doesn't care if she is/was a bargirl or not when applying for a visa. Or does anyone think they have positive proof of this in every case they turn down a visa application?What they do care about, whether they admit it or not, is 'class' and I DONT mean this in the dictionary definition of being 'classy' or not. Class here means 'level' or 'social or regional background.' You're very right, Chanchao. I just made the topic kind of simpler and more attractive by saying BG . But very true, the class (caste?) "system" si very, very well alive in Thailand (and in quite a few other countries, BTW, but we're talking about Thailand). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleman_thai Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 In my factory there are many many girls that have tattoos, dress sexy and their English is pretty basic. If you try to stereotype people you run the danger of making the wrong conclusions.... because they might fit the BG stereotype - but they are not! Having said that I am ###### sure they are not innocent either and just like farang girls they "like to have fun" - good for them! But all this crap about people being able to tell BG from Non BG just by looking at them is just that - crap! Granted you may get 80% right but isnt that a complete disrespect to the 20% of girls that are not........ Take everyone as they are, get to know them, dont jump to conclusions...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted May 11, 2004 Author Share Posted May 11, 2004 But all this crap about people being able to tell BG from Non BG just by looking at them is just that - crap! Granted you may get 80% right but isnt that a complete disrespect to the 20% of girls that are not........ True Appleman, it is a complete disrespect for the 20% who are not. And a total disrespect for the 80% who are,... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleman_thai Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 But all this crap about people being able to tell BG from Non BG just by looking at them is just that - crap! Granted you may get 80% right but isnt that a complete disrespect to the 20% of girls that are not........ True Appleman, it is a complete disrespect for the 20% who are not. And a total disrespect for the 80% who are,... not true - cause you are not being disrespectful by judging themas BG's if they really are BG's. However, that in no way means that you should be disrespecful to any girl (BG or not)..... im just referring to people to jumping to all the wrong conclusions....... Respect others like you would like them to respect you. Those that dont show you respect deserve whatever disrespect you throw their way. I hope I havent lost any of your respect now?!??!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecat Posted May 11, 2004 Author Share Posted May 11, 2004 Respect others like you would like them to respect you. Those that dont show you respect deserve whatever disrespect you throw their way.I hope I havent lost any of your respect now?!??!!! My comments not at all directed at you Appleman. Just as you said and a few others, respect should not be related to how you look like or behave, without knowing the people you're judging. But unfortunately, I guess, most of the people are a bit lazy. Easier that way,... And quite a few people suffer from it, hence I think (I'm not sure anymore) the subject of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFrankie Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 not sure wether anyones posted this already? But theres one surefire way.. If she starts asking for money every 5 minutes and disappears to work every night! Another good way... Its maybe easy enuf for her to dress/act like a student but all her friends arent going to be so bothered about giving you a good impression, ask to go out for a few drinks with them and you'll soon know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka12345 Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 For all intends and purposes, even YOUR EMBASSY doesn't care if she is/was a bargirl or not when applying for a visa. Or does anyone think they have positive proof of this in every case they turn down a visa application? I think that depends on what country's embassy you are talking about. Read the first question in field 38 on a US visa application form: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/7766.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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